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Post by blb on Sept 30, 2006 6:25:37 GMT -6
Played first Double Wing team since I've been here last night.
They had 34:30 time of possession to our 13:30. They took opening drive 73 yards in 12 plays to go up 7-0 first series of game - first time we'd been behind all year.
We won 48-13. Their second score came with six minutes left in game against our threes.
We had 473 yards offense in 40 plays (and only 13:30!), they had 260 on 63 (only 187 after first drive, and 64 came on second scoring drive after we subbed).
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Post by coachcalande on Sept 30, 2006 6:35:02 GMT -6
hey congrats on the win. we played a spread, one back team, they had minus seven yards of offense and we had 32 points in the first 16 minutes. lol.
btw, what style of dw was it and what did you do to slow them down after the opening drive? also what did they run on defense?
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Post by saintrad on Sept 30, 2006 13:06:51 GMT -6
its never one offensive scheme vs another offensive scheme...two shall never meet....its always the pressure of a 46 defense against the spread, and the base front of the other team vs. DW
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Post by blb on Sept 30, 2006 17:40:05 GMT -6
Don't know how to label the "style" of DW they run. Their best player is right wing who they feature, don't use FB much and QB not a threat as passer.
They ran super power, toss sweep, regular WB counter, trap a couple of times, no wedge. Had run True (Stack) I in two films but didn't against us. Did use 8-man line (shift one "end" back to WB, then motion and power or sweep). Also offset the FB, motioned opposite wing, ran power or toss. At end of game they ran two SE double slot a couple of times.
Defensively the ran mostly 4-3 with either Cover 2 or quarter-quarter-halves.
I didn't mention our offensive stats because the two offenses were going "head-to-head," just that the time of possession and yardage totals were so unusually disparate.
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Post by major222 on Oct 1, 2006 9:35:14 GMT -6
We beat a DW team Friday also, 28-27.
their fullback rushed for 350 yards and 4 TD's. they had the ball the whole game. we scored from 80, 60, 45 and returned a kick-off.
They ran super power right all night against us. Their full back aligns 10 yards behind the qb and comes downhill at full speed heading outside and cutting back to C gap. our guys over persued all night. although they did carry the fb off the feild 3 times he just kept going on and on. i was looking for long ears and his batteries. LOL
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Post by wildcat on Oct 1, 2006 10:16:27 GMT -6
I don't believe either of you guys... The DW cannot be beat! That simple truth has been proven an infinite number of times on this very web site.  |
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Post by blb on Oct 1, 2006 19:44:44 GMT -6
Hate to burst your bubble, wildcat, but the two DW teams that I know of in this area are 1-5 and 0-6. There is one on the west side of the state that has turned their program around using double dark wing duck in the last 5-6 years.
Before you get riled up - I know there are many more factors that influence the success of a program than the offensive system you run.
Just DW is not the immediate or long-term answer for all situations.
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Post by wildcat on Oct 1, 2006 20:25:59 GMT -6
Just DW is not the immediate or long-term answer for all situations. Heresy! May the DW gods of Mt. Markham and Mt. Wyatt strike you down! |
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Post by blb on Oct 2, 2006 5:28:38 GMT -6
Actually two on west side, now that I think about it.
As for your curse - I can feel the hair standing up on the back of my neck!
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Post by coachcalande on Oct 2, 2006 6:03:32 GMT -6
discussions about a teams wins and losses and what offense they run are misleading. id rather compare before and after regarding offensive productivity....time of possession too... i think its more telling.
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Post by blb on Oct 2, 2006 8:04:00 GMT -6
Homer Smith would disagree vehemently with you re TOP.
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Post by coachcalande on Oct 2, 2006 10:04:56 GMT -6
thats fine. and top probably isnt the best stat for college and pro teams but for hs and youth teams with players going both ways and also playing special teams...well, its important for us.
homer smith has also stated the "god blocking doesnt work"...and hes wrong. I love homer but hes wrong about that.
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Post by major222 on Oct 3, 2006 4:33:08 GMT -6
My strategy was to accept the fact that they would pile on yardage. If I can make the drives use up 5 or so plays then sooner or later, being the high school kids they are, they would draw a flag or fumble forcing them into passing situations and they were awful throwing the ball.
We scored on 1 play for 80 yds, 3 plays for 50, 2 plays for 50 and a kick-off return
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Post by coachcalande on Oct 3, 2006 6:14:01 GMT -6
hey ya know what stat is definately not looked into enough...scores per posession. what percentage of the time does a team turn a possession into points...would be a good comparision to look at ball control teams vs those air it out types...
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Post by blb on Oct 3, 2006 6:26:40 GMT -6
Don't want to belabor the point because it's not all that interesting or important, but just let me cite some personal experience:
We are leading our league in total offense and rushing offense for the third year in a row, scoring for second consecutive (my third year here, second as HC). We have had more TOP in only one of our six games this year. We are 6-0, BTW. The TOP stat is typical for our teams over the years.
The object is to get the ball in the end zone. It doesn't matter how, or whether it takes one play or ten.
I don't understand the argument about how holding the ball on offense will help two-way players. Aren't they going to play the same amount of time or plays whether you have the ball or not? Don't they do the same conditioning?
Are you suggesting they can take breaks on offense, or offense is somehow easier to play? I don't buy that, because every offensive player could grade out at 90% and never make a first down, if a different guy breaks down every play.
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Post by coachcalande on Oct 3, 2006 6:33:44 GMT -6
yes, offense is easier. it takes better athletes to play defense. that seems to be pretty widely accepted....you dont have the pursuit and your team sets the pace. so yes, i think its a well known fact at this point that controlling the ball and clock helps the defense. your team is surely both well coached and loaded with athletes. thats great, not every team has that luxery and has to pick a style of play that fits. there are schools where 9, 10 or even all 11 kids play both sides...trying to play track meet basketball on grass style football would be silly... shorten the game keep the clock running. i cant believe a coach of your experience doesnt understand (or perhaps youd just like to argue about this?) how running the clock shortens the game, therefor giving less total plays to kids who dont come off the field. how long have been coaching again?
yes, there are instances where we whup teams with less top and total plays as well...and there are games where we have top and lose...ie two years ago, team we played had just 17 plays and we had 44...we lost. it happens. but wed have lost alot worse if we didnt hold the ball the way we did. we couldnt run with them. we gave our kids a chance to win...down 14-6 in the fourth quarter. alot better than 44-6 or whatever.
i agree, the object is to score...but the object for teams that use ball control is to limit posessions and score on a high % of posessions. avoiding the dreaded "3 and out" is important for teams with poor speed on defense especially.
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Post by rathernot on Oct 3, 2006 6:55:21 GMT -6
We (Junior High Team) play a DW team tonight. They are a pretty well coached but VERY undermanned team. We are a physically superior team but I anticipate a tough game because our kids have never seen the DW before.
By the way we run a Rockets and Jets variation of the Wing T. Not a true jetsweep.com, Wes Elrod version, but one that is based more in zone principles. We also run a 5-3 defense.
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Post by davecisar on Oct 3, 2006 6:58:29 GMT -6
Simple math would tell us that a running game equals fewer plays from scrimmage due to the fact the clock stops on incompletions and to move the chains, first downs. When a team runs the ball the clock continues to run hence fewer offensive snaps and fewer total plays. The fewer the number of plays the less a two way player has to play. The fewer the possesions as one shortrens the game makes each possession that more important and turnovers are huge. Fewer possessions goive a weaker team the opportunnity to steal a win.
Extreme example to prove the point:
Game with 100 possessions to each team, the better team will win, fresk situations and breaks are less of a factor.
Ive stolen manya game by using up the entire 25 sec clock, calling timeouts at end of 25 second clock, running the ball every play and getting an onside kick back etc. I shorten the game any time Im overmatched.
Game with 4 possessions each , game can be decided by a trunover or freak play.
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Post by tog on Oct 3, 2006 7:01:50 GMT -6
yes, 1. offense is easier. 2. it takes better athletes to play defense. that seems to be pretty widely accepted.... I totally disagree with #1, I coach the offense to go until the whistle, to clean people out standing around the pile if a whistle hasn't blown, to get downfield and make a block they all better be going until the whistle or they are not going to play there has to be a total sense of urgency on all three sides of the ball #2, yes, agree, defenders are 90% of the time going to be the better athletes sure there are going to be the stud rb, or stud athlete wr, but most of the time, the athletes are on defense |
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Post by brophy on Oct 3, 2006 7:13:08 GMT -6
Put your studs on defense (guys that can fly).....no one wins if they don't score. Offense can take weeks to get down, because you have to contend with so many fronts and coverages. Defenses can take a few practices to get down, because for the most part, you can sit in one coverage and just fly to the ball, without having to diagnose and decipher what your opponent is doing. TOP is important to some folks / controlling the clock....but so long as you have a half-way decent defense and play field position (not put yourself in bad situations) you will generally come out ahead, so long as you are scoring points on offense. IF your defense can't get off the field on 3rd downs, then sitting on the ball becomes a priority. Field position scoring percentages  |
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Post by coachcalande on Oct 3, 2006 7:29:13 GMT -6
yes, 1. offense is easier. 2. it takes better athletes to play defense. that seems to be pretty widely accepted.... I totally disagree with #1, I coach the offense to go until the whistle, to clean people out standing around the pile if a whistle hasn't blown, to get downfield and make a block they all better be going until the whistle or they are not going to play there has to be a total sense of urgency on all three sides of the ball #2, yes, agree, defenders are 90% of the time going to be the better athletes sure there are going to be the stud rb, or stud athlete wr, but most of the time, the athletes are on defense tog- i submit to you for consideration...if you are a dlineman, getting double teamed saps your strength far more than being a blocker doing the double team... |
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Post by los on Oct 3, 2006 7:38:38 GMT -6
I think of a football team as a "machine", and statistic's as the info from your monitoring system(car's computer). If the cars running great, this data (while interesting reading) isn't that important. If its sputtering, you might use this statistical data to help diagnose a problem? Of course in football, the other teams you play also have access to your data list(film study, tendency's and such) and are trying to wreck your machine lol! los
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Post by wingtol on Oct 3, 2006 8:12:05 GMT -6
I think time of posseison is very over-rated as a stat. I have coached on teams where we were told that we scored too quickly to win. Well we went 14-0 that year and yeah we had lots of big plays where we scored on the 2nd or 3rd play of a drive. A score is a score to me. Dosen't matter how fast or slow you do it. I think clock managment is a totally diffrent area than time of possesion and vastly more important. We had a game this last weekend where we got the ball in the 4th up 7-0 and told the qb not to snap it untill the ref put up his hand for the 5 second warning. We ened up running out about 8 mins of the 4th and gave them the ball back with 4 seconds left. We prob ran 10 fewer plays than we would have at a normal tempo but managed the clock better. I think it is more important to manage the time you have the ball rather than to have more posession time.
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Post by tog on Oct 3, 2006 8:19:42 GMT -6
good point, but they are the better athletes right? 95% of our double teams turn into combos though, as most all dl we face will drop to the pressure and try to clog things up, allowing us to get to the second level I totally disagree with #1, I coach the offense to go until the whistle, to clean people out standing around the pile if a whistle hasn't blown, to get downfield and make a block they all better be going until the whistle or they are not going to play there has to be a total sense of urgency on all three sides of the ball #2, yes, agree, defenders are 90% of the time going to be the better athletes sure there are going to be the stud rb, or stud athlete wr, but most of the time, the athletes are on defense tog- i submit to you for consideration...if you are a dlineman, getting double teamed saps your strength far more than being a blocker doing the double team... |
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Post by saintrad on Oct 3, 2006 8:34:01 GMT -6
TIme of Possession? oh, that thing that allows you to score more than the other team? yeah I have heard of it.
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Post by davecisar on Oct 3, 2006 8:46:23 GMT -6
Yes if you have the superior team and have the players to score from anywhere on the field at any time TOP doesnt matter beans. If you have the kids to two platoon, doesnt matter much. However for those many average or outmanned, low numbers, out sized out athleted teams out there TOP is extremely important.
If offense and defense are 100% equal in effort, then why do we quite often see defenses calling timeouts to "catch their breath" or see them on the oxygen tanks sucking wind. Dont really see that from the offense minus the RB that just went 80 yds for the score etc.
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Post by blb on Oct 3, 2006 9:22:56 GMT -6
In my opinion, based on my experience (aren't we all products of our own experiences?) big plays win football games, whether on offense, defense, or in special teams.
If you believe playing "keep away" gives your team the best chance to win and have been successful doing so, more power to you.
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Post by Coach Huey on Oct 3, 2006 9:33:25 GMT -6
time of possession DOES NOT win games.
moving the ball (gaining 1st downs & ultimately points) wins games --- offensively speaking here.
time of possession is a BYPRODUCT of moving the ball. because, if you can't move the ball (3 & out), just how much time are you really milking from the clock???
while i don't think time of possesion is a completely worthless stat, its importance is much lower on the radar than moving the chains. keeping the ball means MOVING the ball, not how much time runs off the clock. a team with a high time of possession is also a team that has the ability to get first downs in succession.
also, take a deep look at time of possession & how it relates to your opponents starting field position and how it relates to your own
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Post by davecisar on Oct 3, 2006 9:54:46 GMT -6
Big plays win games. If you are outmanned, out gunned and have zero players that can take it 'to the house" vs the speed/size athleticism of the other team you have to keep the other team off the field and limit the total number of possessions to have the best chance at winning.
Ive had teams that could and did score from every spot on the field, I played hurry up there becuase I wanted as many possessions in the game that was humanly possible.
I also had a very small and slow team that had just 12 plays in excess of 20 yard for the entire season. Both teams won all thier games, but the second took much more coaching effort, clock mangement and game planning etc We were totally outmatched in 2 games, one was won with some very good clock management, the other the one the team got bored , thought they could finish us off at any time, we get a break, ran the clock, got an onside kick and stole the game.
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vtjapes
Sophomore Member
Posts: 173
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Post by vtjapes on Oct 3, 2006 10:02:04 GMT -6
Just a thought to put out there...not really about TOP but more on off vs def conditioning and such Example 1. Offense running a counter to the left.... The offense knows the play is going to the left and only the QB and RB fake to the right... The defense first read is run to the right and then has to break back to the left Result defenders take more steps per play not taking into account the additional stress on your body to make these reactions and direction changes Example 2. CB vs WR man to man... The WR knows he is taking 8 steps and then cutting, The CB takes those same steps plus at least 1 extra (If he is not outstanding probably more than 1) and sees the cut and then breaks back to the WR. Result...every cut a WR makes means the defender is making AT LEAST one more step than he is, not to mention the fact that some of these steps were backwards. 30 backwards sprints for 5 yards or 30 forward for 10...I'll take the forward ones twice as far. My Conclusions...I'm going to have to agree with the others on this it's a lot more exhausting playing Defense than it is to play Offense. Although I do agree that TOP doesn't means much if you can't score. If I can score on twice as many of my possessions as you do with your huge TOP then the 4th quarter when my Def is tired doesn't mean as much. It is a proven fact that TOP will help to keep you IN a game which for some teams is the goal. Lets face it some of us are in very underprivaleged programs so not getting hummiliated means ALOT. Lets face it we all like to believe we are outstanding coaches but how many of us are losing site of the fact that talent makes up for a lot of mistakes. (not saying that some here aren't great but I don't think the great ones will be offended b/c I think they agree with what I am trying to say). The greatest offensive system in the world (if there is such a thing) can't take an 0-11 team with no talent and make them a winner regardless of the coach. It can make the team competative which can draw more of the athletes to your program but then your back to the thin line of am I a better coach this year or do I have better talent. Probably a little bit of both but as the saying goes "you can't make chicken soup out of chicken poop" Sorry for the long rant but I am pretty sure there is a point in there somewhere, maybe, if you look hard enough. |
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