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Post by airman on Jun 1, 2006 17:48:02 GMT -6
i was thinking about this rule, you know you could score 8 tds and not break 50 points. 8 tds x 6 points is 48. so leave it to the coach who would go for two and have his qb kneel down on every 2 pt conversion.
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Post by bulldog on Jun 1, 2006 18:57:11 GMT -6
I see a lot of comments about the coaching in this thread . . . . You also need to consider the talent mismatch. I have yet to see a coach throw a pass, block, or make a tackle. The game is about the kids - and there are schools with low talent levels. If you can't realize that and check your ego, what kind of example are you setting - for your kids? I like the story about sending linemen in to play RB, installing the wishbone and creating a fun situation for your kids. Clearly that was an attempt to honor the spirit of the game.
What kind of lesson are you teaching the other coach by running up the score? That he should try harder to be a better coach? We are a coaching fraternity - competitive and intense, but with the realization that 99% of our kids are playing at the highest level they ever will attain. We should honor and respect each other, not rub each other's faces in the losses and embarass the other team. That is lacking class. You can be a coach for whatever reason, but realize that most of your kids will get far more from what they learn on a daily basis than the fleeting glory from a win. Perseverence. Dedication. Committment. Teamwork. Unity. These qualities will last a lifetime.
What good does it do to pound a mismatched team relentlessly? What do the kids learn? Enough with the 'my team needs reps'. That is a shallow argument IMO. If you pound a team so bad that the score is way out of hand, then your first team should be on the bench. If your second team continues the onslaught, then there is no point to 'reps'. You should get your 'reps' from your own scout team - which clearly outclassed the opponent. To me, it just sounds like an excuse to pound the other team. Some of you with limited roster sizes - that is another story. Clearly, if you don't have the bodies, your options are seriously limited.
Semper Fi.
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Post by senatorblutarsky on Jun 1, 2006 19:34:39 GMT -6
Like any offensive philosophy, defensive philosophy, training philosophy... a lot of coaches who agree to disagree. Really, I couldn't care less about the rule (at this point.. I'm sure another state's athletic legislation will bring it up sometime). I do not live in Connecticut, nor do I plan to (you never know though).
This makes me wonder how rules get put in in other states. In Nebraska each AD has a vote within 1 of 6 districts. Any issue must pass 4 of the 6 districts- and then go to the board of control (district reps plus NSAA personnel) again it must pass by 67% vote. I really don't think it will pass here- so no point really arguing it from my end... I don't like it, I don't have to deal with it... so I'm ready to move on.
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Post by groundchuck on Jun 2, 2006 6:14:46 GMT -6
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Post by saintrad on Jun 2, 2006 7:34:35 GMT -6
"This isn't tee ball for 5-year-olds. Some teams are very good and some teams aren't. Life isn't always fair and sometimes you lose big.
"You're talking about class, about teaching respect, about an awful lot of things that sports are supposed to teach," Kallok said."
i agree
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Post by senatorblutarsky on Jun 2, 2006 7:46:33 GMT -6
Interesting article... what most of us have already been saying.
I thought I was going to drop the issue... and I will after a few more points:
I looked over the Mercy rule threads... the ESPN article had something in it I didn't really look over before:
(RE: The CT proposal) Some states, including Iowa, continuously run the game clock in the second half if a team has a 35-point lead. The Connecticut committee rejected a similar proposal because members thought it would unfairly cut into backups' playing time.
So, the Connecticut governing body of HS Athletics is not willing to cut in to the TIME a reserve spends on the field... they are just willing to legislate the ABILITY those players may have.
Finally, bulldog, we disagree- that's fine. But in looking over your posts on the "running up the score" thread, you gave an example which would not be covered by the CT rule:
We've had the score run-up on us by an immature, class-less coach. He was up by 3-4 TD's late in Q4 and left his starters in the game. With a minute left, he threw a double pass against our second string defense (non-league game), then went for the 2 point conversion.
if my math is right 4 TDs at most is 32... plus 8 more. 40 pt. classless win and there is no suspension. In our 74-0 game last year, the last string guys played most of the game, their team/coaches were not upset. In fact, they got 3 first downs (two weeks before, we gave up one in a 42-0 win). I've worked with their coach at his request RE: our blocking system & drills to help them for the upcoming year). In other words, I did everything to be a "nice guy" short of have my players fall down and put on circus antics (which I still maintain, is not sportsman-like... it is toying with them). Yet I would have been suspended under that rule.
The problem with this rule is it is arbitrary. 60-0 is a dominating win, but is not necessarily classless. 28-3 can be classless in some circumstances. To many variables for this rule to make any sense whatsoever.
I'm done now. Seriously.
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Post by saintrad on Jun 2, 2006 8:20:14 GMT -6
bulldog and senator-
both have very compelling and valid arguments for your sides. I agree with both of you on your comments because I think we are all saying the same thing and letting semantics get in the way of the message.
During my playing and coaching career I have been on both sides of a lopsided loss. In my high school days we beat a league rival 77-0. The #1 didn't even play that week, and I as the a Freshman QB (4th string no less) got to play all of the second half. WE scored 2 TD - defensively during that half. Our coach knew during our week in practice that this would probably happen. We were the smaller of th two schools, but we were a unified community so our program benefited from that.
About 10 yrs later, my old high school was beat by Don Markham's Bandon team 74-0. He was having his running backs step out at the 5 yd line and then knee down 4 times. Yes it kept him from running up the score, but what did it do to the psyche of our old team? The next year our state created a 45 point mercy rule (aka "The Markham Rule").
The point I am trying to make is that most coaches are good natured and recognize mismatches and try to do everything they can to stop it from getting out of hand. But at the same time they also try to do what is best for the players development as well. When we were at Junction City we beat a league rival (Glide) 56-0 at half. Game stopped because of the 45 point rule. Our #1 & #2 played one series each. Our #3 (Frosh team basically) played the rest of the game. The example i used in an earlier post about our 3000th string DB intercepting the ball and running it in for the score was part of that game. The other team was similar in enrollment and had a larger squad than we did. The opposing HC came over after the game, thanked us for letting his kids compete and not making it a mockery. He thanked us for letting our younger kids play and showing his team what a successful program looked like. There was class by both coaches in that game - not some silly legislation or mean spirited attacks or what ever. Just two good coaches who understood that this is just a game and that things happen from time to time.
Oh, by the way, this same team we beat 56-0 had beaten us (when we were still an I formation team) 90-0, thus forcing us to look at a different scheme (the spread) which we still use today. SO it goes both ways. The key is what is good for the kids. IF a coach purposely runs up the score, yes that is terrible, but it is up to his administration to reprimand or fire him, not our state legislature. Do coaches make a mockery of the game like Markham did ...yes and that is unfortunate since the kids are the ones that pay for it, not the coaches.
By human nature, most coaches are coaches of character. Its the jerks that screw it up for all of us good coaches.
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Post by coachmacplains on Jun 2, 2006 9:53:58 GMT -6
A few have made the point here that if mismatches exist that the scheduling needs to be changed. That is not always possible. In our state, for example, the high school activities association does the scheduling.
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Post by senatorblutarsky on Jun 2, 2006 11:09:34 GMT -6
Same in ours Mcaplains. The 74-0 was a district game too. The state assigns districts as well as schedule.
Saintrad... thanks for the "levelheadedness" and bulldog, I don't think we are too far off. I just think class and sportsmanship have a lot more to do with the management of a game and less than final score... especially in a blowout.
Now I'm done. Seriously. No really.
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Post by coachcb on Jun 2, 2006 14:48:12 GMT -6
I just hope and pray that this rule doesn't set some kind of precedent and make its way into other states.
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Post by bulldog on Jun 2, 2006 15:56:51 GMT -6
Senator, I totally agree, it has a lot more to do with game management than the final score. If there is communication with the other coach - or if it is obvious that you are trying to play with sportsmanship, then emotions stay in-check. Complaints are kept to a minimum.
I doubt this rule would have come into place in the first place if the coach it was aimed at showed some class. The article mentioned 4 wins by more than 50 points and one win of 90-0. If the AD and the school admin didn't do anything about the situation (the AD defended the coach), I'm sure the state admins felt compelled to step-in. The rule is nicknamed the 'Jack Cochran Rule' (according to the article) because of the coach's behavior. The article mentioned an opposing coach being arrested because he went after Cochran's staff when he called a TO right before the half (the article didn't say why - but I assumed it was to score again). It's too bad that one coach needs to be legislated. But, then again, the new rule will likely teach him nothing. I'm sure that he will still find a way to keep his same behavior and manipulate the score.
Imagine a hypothetical scenario:
- you are up by say 43 points. you score to make it a 49 point margin. You go for 2. Now you are up by 51. The next time you get the ball, you drive down to the 1 yard line. Instead of punching it in for the score. You have your QB turn and sprint back to your own endzone for a safety. Back under 50 points.
- or instead you have your QB take a knee on your own 1 yard line instead of scoring. Let the opponent run a play for a score while your D just stands around. Just so that you can go score again.
It could get ugly if someone wants to be a wiseass with the rule. The running clock is a much better idea IMO.
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Post by groundchuck on Jun 2, 2006 16:48:04 GMT -6
Or like another article mentioned: You are down by 49 and to screw over the other coach you tell your QB to take a safety putting them up by 51 points. Now that coach gets suspended.
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Post by saintrad on Jun 2, 2006 22:38:40 GMT -6
i have always believed that those in our profession will take care of those that get out of line...call it the crab rule: when one tries to get out, the others pull him back in line. I think a few well placed calls to the state association by non-league coaches about the behavior could have headed this off.
As a current HC (albeit its only 8th grade at a Jr High) I would expect my AD to defend my actions publicly, but chew my butt behind the closed door. IF an AD sells out his staff to public opinion, regardless of how right it may be, it would be hard for any coach to go into that situation knowing that you only have token support.
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Post by saintrad on Jun 2, 2006 22:40:25 GMT -6
senator and bulldog-
thanks for being coaches of character. It is what makes our profession right.
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kdcoach
Sophomore Member
Posts: 194
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Post by kdcoach on Jun 3, 2006 11:42:49 GMT -6
In another thread I told everyone about an 82-6 loss we suffered through in our first season. How much class the other coach showed and what he did to try to keep the score down. Last year we were losing 35 - 19 with about 25 seconds left in the game, we had pulled our starters to give the JV kids some reps with about 1:25 seconds left. The coach from the other team left his starters in and they drove down the field. With about 7 seconds left in the game he told his QB to take a knee on our 20 yard line. Instead he threw a fade to a 6'4" WR over our 5'5" Corner. I was PI$$ED to say the least. They sent a message to us through the officials that they hadn't called the play, that the QB had acted on his own and how sorry they were. After the game the coach had his QB and WR apologize to our team and then he did so himself. As he walked away he had tears in his eyes and apologized over and over to me explaining his embarrassment personally and for his team and school. Did not play the QB or the WR the following week and lost to a team they probably could have beaten with them. I think that's what most are talking about when they say that the majority of coaches out ther want to do the right thing. He retired this last year after 35 years in coaching. I think the league is worse off without him. I can tell you though that my kids are looking forward to playing that team this year. Both the QB and WR were only Jr.'s as was most of my squad.
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Post by coachtroy54 on Jun 4, 2006 6:08:22 GMT -6
First and foremost Football doesn't compare to other sports because of the way that the score is kept, 1, 2, 3, 6. Ads up quick.
Lacrosse and Hockey would be the closets to them with shut-outs and high scoring.
I am a recreation coach that is involved in a league that follows fed. rules. We have a 18 point rule that states that starting backs must not carry the ball or be in the backfield after your team scores 18 points, no matter how the points are scored. These types of rules are FEEL GOOD RULES.
If you can't prepare your team for a game then you don't need to be coaching. If your AD wants to feel like a BIG MAN and bite off more then your team can chew then the AD has failed the team, and school as a leader of the program and should be replaced.
I can't understand why a coach would tell his 3rd or 4th set of backs to step out before you score. Talk about holding players back. Our job as a coach is to get that player ready for the next level of play be it Recreation, High School or College.
These types of rules have got to be gotten rid of, for the sake of the game. When I was growing up if you made the team you played and not with a guarantee of how many plays.
As a head coach you must do what is best for the team, program and school. I feel for you coaches up north and wish you the best of luck.
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Post by coachcb on Jun 4, 2006 9:29:31 GMT -6
I don't think that the legislation realizes that there are a wide variety of ways to score points in a football game, not just offensively. I was coaching a MS game where we were down 30-0 going into the fourth quarter and I had been playing the lower tiers of the depth chart for the last half of a quarter. The other coach was being a class act, there were several time he was in our territory in a fourth and short situation but punted the ball. However, our second team punt group was terrible and ended up giving up three blocked punts, all of which were taken in for scores. We lost the game 51-0 and the opposing offense didn't score once in the second half, but according to the CT rules the opposing coach should be suspended....
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Post by jhanawa on Jun 4, 2006 14:46:51 GMT -6
Coachtroy54,
At somepoint, with younger kids, you have to call off the dogs. The game I referred to was against a team that our second team could have beaten 100-0, no sense in playing the game in the first place but we had to so we tried not to embarrass the other team's YOUNG kids. If I would have done whats right for my program, maybe I would have left the starters in and smeared them 150+ to zero, we literally could have scored every play. But also, I think a message was taught to our kids, yes have killer instinct, but also have restraint and judgement. 28-0 final, shook hands and left. The other coach and administration thanked us for taking it easy on them because it was their first year playing and they were having a tough time getting off their feet. As you can see above, I edited my post to reflect my opinion on HS and college games, which I feel are different because teams at that level aught to be able to field respectable teams, yet class and sportsmanship are still important and shouldn't be forgotten.
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Post by runtheball86 on Jun 4, 2006 14:56:59 GMT -6
why don't those pansies just not keep score? what a gay rule Hey, tog ... don't let your true colors show through .... is THAT how you coach your men? Hope not ... such comments have no place in sports today. Time to get out of the sport, man, if that is the world you still live in. |
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Post by coachtroy54 on Jun 4, 2006 18:35:43 GMT -6
Coach yes class and sportsmanship are a big part of the game but the FEEL GOOD rules have got to stop. Next thing you know they will want to change the way score is kept.
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Post by bulldog on Jun 4, 2006 19:27:58 GMT -6
When class and sportsmanship are exhibited, the so-called 'feel good' rules will stop. Had they been shown by one coach in CT in the first place, this rule probably would never have been enacted. Rules and legislation are usually a reaction to a problem - and this classless coach in CT was a problem. It's too bad that his behavior effects everyone.
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Post by tog on Jun 4, 2006 19:29:00 GMT -6
why don't those pansies just not keep score? what a gay rule Hey, tog ... don't let your true colors show through .... is THAT how you coach your men? Hope not ... such comments have no place in sports today. Time to get out of the sport, man, if that is the world you still live in. dont let my true colors show through? what? that I think this rule is lame? It's what I think. This is a coaching board full of adults. I think people can handle those terms. who the hell are you to tell me to "get out of the sport"? sounds like you are the one with the issue not me what world are you talking about? I am one of the most liberated and free thinking politically coaches I know. The rule is gay. Hell, even a bunch of gay dudes would tell you it was gay too. |
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Post by tog on Jun 4, 2006 20:40:12 GMT -6
 if you are so pc you can't make fun of gayitude then you aren't even as tough as half the gay people out there in this world  |
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Post by saintrad on Jun 4, 2006 21:16:12 GMT -6
all i know is that the state association should have handled the problem and not the state legislature. SOunds like overkill to me, or a weak association.
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Post by runtheball86 on Jun 4, 2006 21:38:08 GMT -6
I believe that if the school principal and AD had handled things properly then the Association wouldnt have needed to get involved....
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Post by coachtroy54 on Jun 5, 2006 4:02:25 GMT -6
Well there in lies the problem. Poor leadership. A bad AD, Principle and High School Football Association. Not coach. Not knowing the schools enrollment but you cannot have a school that enrolls 800 studenst play against a school that enrolls 2500. The numbers just dont add up.
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Post by runtheball86 on Jun 11, 2006 18:24:31 GMT -6
The rule has been modified ... coaches who win by 50 or more now have 48 to appeal their suspension - to show, I guess, how they tried to keep the score down.
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Post by spreadattack on Jun 15, 2006 8:10:56 GMT -6
Came across an interesting post with someone discussing this new rule: www.volokh.com/archives/archive_2006_06_11-2006_06_17.shtml#1150350236Basically arguing that this rule will be even more humiliating for losing teams because the other team suddenly not only puts in its reserves but literally has to just fall down and not try, further reinforcing how bad you are/are playing. |
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