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Post by bigdaddyd on May 30, 2006 11:23:09 GMT -6
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Post by cqmiller on May 30, 2006 11:29:29 GMT -6
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Post by groundchuck on May 30, 2006 12:57:49 GMT -6
This is some sort of joke right? Suspend the coach? What the ^$&^#&% is the state of CT thinking?
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Post by tog on May 30, 2006 16:41:29 GMT -6
The football committee of the Connecticut Interscholastic Athletic Conference, which governs high school sports, is adopting a "score management" policy that will suspend coaches whose teams win by more than 50 points."MSN News" Your joking right? What lesson are we teaching the players by this? We are suppose to teach them how to be "Men". Sometimes as a man you have to get your butt kick. The true test is can you take the blows..wipe your nose clean..and get back after em next week? After a wiping like that you "should" have your squad chopping at the bit to get back on the field or better yet I means more to them to prove that they can play better than that!!!!!! I just cant see myself crying that another coach is running up the score! Suck it up! You beat us by 1 Im pissed/we lose..You beat us by 1000 Im pissed/we lose.Either way bottom line we did not when.Why?What went wrong?What did we not adjust to?We did we not do enough of?Thats all that matters.After a lose..I rarely focus on the other team. We need to about us and what we need to do before the next game. Your mad that they have 500yrd rushing? Work on your Defense Your mad because they are up and they keep thowing the ball?' Work on your coverage or find some DL/LB that will match intensity levels Your mad that at halftime the other coach wants to call a TO so they can score again? Here's a clue....DONT LET THEM SCORE!! There is a problem when you put rules like this into place. You give the WRONG messages. To the winner:Dont play your hardest...Dont play until there is no time on the clock....Dont be the best and dominate when ever you step on the field..."Im sorry, I know we are at a small school and the only way you can get a legit shot at a major University is by having amazing numbers, but we cant show the scouts because I dont want to get suspended"..Sorry 2nd/3rd string you can forget about playing the entire 4th and getting extra reps. To the loser:Dont worry men mental toughness and self control arent important in life anymore...Dont worry guys just as in life someone will always be there to make sure your feelings arent hurt or lord forbid you ever get embarrased....Dont wory men, if we arent prepared the fans will never really know, they can only win by 50. Dont worry men, you will see this 50pt rule in college and the pros(NOT).Sorry starters, you can forget about coming out of the game we still have a chance..2nd/3rd string FORGET IT!.Most of all, all mankind is fair and will treat you with repect. Now ask yourself do you have a real need for this rule?Beside the coach ran the score up on someone that can play politics. Let focus on rules that will keep the kids safe, not our egos. Running clock ok(safety issue)but a suspension for the score? Come on! It is still possible to win big "with class" Some of these guys need to read up on Coach Landry. " In the game of football you have a winner and a loser. The winner does the teaching and the loser does the learning" How many other states have this rule? That would never fly around here. You get your schedule..You prepare you men..Whom ever is better prepared to win...does!
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Post by coachcb on May 30, 2006 21:28:22 GMT -6
Funny thing is, I have gone into the the second half with a 35-0 lead, pulled all of my starters, grounded it out to chew up the clock, and still ended up with a 55-0 win. People got pissed because on two occasions I was within their 10 yard line, had a 4th and 3-5 and went for it. I guess I was supposed to take the guranteed FG points, instead of giving the other team yet another chance to get me off of the field.
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Post by saintrad on May 30, 2006 22:22:53 GMT -6
an old coaching friend one explained it to me this way: "I have my team prepared to play a game called footbal. I can't help it if the other team isnt prepared."
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Post by senatorblutarsky on May 30, 2006 23:25:56 GMT -6
so... what happens if a calculus or trigonometry student in a Connecticut high school scores a 99 on an exam and the next highest grade in that class was a 45? Is that student suspended for a week of school for "belittling others"?
.Man... the things I miss when I go to the mountains for a week!
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Post by bulldog on May 30, 2006 23:51:21 GMT -6
I don't like the idea of suspending a coach. But, seriously a 90-0 win? I can see why the CT admin would want to ensure lopsided losses like that don't happen. I don't know this coach at New London, but a 90-0 win shows a lack of class on the HC's part. As a HC, there are ways to manage the game so that it doesn't get that out-of-hand. The admin is clearly trying to legislate class and sportsmanship.
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Post by senatorblutarsky on May 31, 2006 1:23:37 GMT -6
but a 90-0 win shows a lack of class on the HC's part.
I really don't want to start a late night argument here... but last year we won a game 74-0 which was ended at half-time (we have had a 45 pt. rule... no more starting next season). Our starters played 4 offensive plays. Our 2nd team was done playing with time left in the first quarter. A 5'3 115# freshman was our leading rusher. Our JR TB/QB, who finished in the top 5 state rushing leaders (4th or 5th) had 39 yards. If I let him play and get 300, he might have been the state's leader.
If that game occurred under the CT rule I would have been suspended.
I don't like those kind of games either- and as a coach I do what I can do to not let scores get ridiculous. But- in a blow-out, my first loyalty is to our starters. We need to get enough game reps to be ready for the weeks we have tough games. My second loyalty is to our team/2nd team guys- to get them ready in case of an injury (or 5 like last year). My third loyalty is to our little, bad guys who never miss workouts, never miss practice... but are just not "good" right now.
I only occasionally see the complaints like this in basketball. I rarely see them in volleyball or baseball. Maybe people complain in soccer... but that is communism on grass so I would expect that. Tennis, golf... track? When was the last time anyone griped about a kid humiliating his competition because he threw 201' in the discus and the next place was 122' 9?
90-0 is still "just" 13 scores and I've seen 13-0 baseball games.
Like 3nout said-if you don't like it- get better.
I was one of the most unathletic children to ever walk this planet. Baseballs would hit me in the face, I couldn't run, had no coordination, no strength. I was the last pick on every team- and I got tired of it and worked to be better. In some cases, it took 3 years of throwing and catching every day until I was as good as the average. And no, I never made it to the NFL, MLB or NHL... but I lettered 4 years in college, and now coach... because even the small world of little-league and recess kicked my butt... yet in the end, I learned what Woody Hayes called the great thing about football: "When you get knocked down, you must learn to get back up."
I feel bad for kids when they lose 90 or 74-0. I really do. I feel bad for a neighboring school that has not won a basketball game in 4 years. I feel bad for people who miss shots, miss puts... I feel bad for the 9 year old catcher who walks the ball back to the pitcher because if he throws it the other team will know there is no way he's getting the ball to 2nd... or even 3rd base. But as bad as I feel about that I feel worse when some bureaucrat/administrator/Stuart Smalley intervenes and makes the one who lost a "victim" and not just a guy(s) on the ground who have to learn to get back up.
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Post by los on May 31, 2006 5:29:29 GMT -6
Perhaps the problem was in the scheduling, rather than the game itself? A few seasons ago, we started a football program at this small school. They never played before and most of the kids had no idea what football was all about. In our first 7 game season, we were behind 40? to zero in several contests at halftime.The opposing coaches and officials would ask if we wanted to quit, or have a running clock, stuff like that. The boss and I would smile and thank them but told them we came to learn to play football and try to get better, it was a long drive and we'd stick it out to the end. So we had many losses in the 60 something to single digit range, but it was our choice!
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Post by playfast on May 31, 2006 5:46:23 GMT -6
It is the job of the coach to coach his team. Do not blame a coaching staff who work hard and coach all their players. If a sophmore and freshman practice all week and stand on the sidelines for more than half the season and finally get a chance to play when people paid admission and the band is playing and their all excited what are coaches suppose to do? Tell these kids who practice hard all week to fall down?
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Post by saintrad on May 31, 2006 7:21:08 GMT -6
i guess here is a question for the Conn. people to answer: My team is up by a lrge number, my starters and #2 are resting on the bench and I have my #3 (usually soph or freshmen). THe other team has the ball, the QB drops, scans the field , goes thru his progression, fires the ball to their best reciever (god knows why he is still playing) and our freshman 3000th string CB makes a great play by stepping in front of the ball, intercepting it at its highest point, and shoots for our endzone to score. HERE IS THE QUESTION: WHo has the right to tell that kid he can't score on that interception return, becasue if he did his HC (which he either likes, respoects, or both) will be suspended should he score.
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Post by coachveer on May 31, 2006 8:54:07 GMT -6
Saintrad, They don't have an answer yet. Here is one more for you. We are playing our arch rival in the last game of the season. We are up 49-0 with 2 seconds left in the game. They have the ball on their own 5 yard line. What happens if their coach tells their QB to take a sack to make it 51-0. Would I then be suspended for one playoff game?
There has to be a better way to control those few Coach's that can't seem to play nice.
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Post by bigdaddyd on May 31, 2006 9:38:16 GMT -6
I think it comes down to putting your team in the right position. Just from experience, I could tell you my first year as HC was a tough one. I inherited a schedule of opponents we shouldn't have even played against. When I asked my AD why he scheduled these opponents, his response was, " I needed to fill the schedule."
I think when you start playing teams you have no business playing, the result could be catastrophic.
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kakavian
Sophomore Member
Where's the ball, boy? Find the ball.
Posts: 175
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Post by kakavian on May 31, 2006 9:55:02 GMT -6
Look fellas, I have been on both sides of this issue. I beat someone 40-0 once and got put on probation for it. I had my third string QB score on a 3 and 35 QB sneak that EVERYONE knew was coming given that I had run it the previous two plays...THe next year when we played that team, I literally coached the most boring second half of football ever, we marched down to the 20 and kneel on the ball. It sucked, but I would have been fired otherwise, under the 30 pt rule that had been adopted. In my previous teams, I have been shelled 55-0,63-0,49-0. I had a team kick an onsides against us when they were up 35-0. While that coach was a total *thingy* The other coaches had pulled their starters, we were just outclassed and out coached. It happens. But those losses, they made me NOT want to lose like that again, they made me a better coach.
We are denying those coaches, as well as those players, the chance to see if they can step up and become better men after a shattering loss like that. In some regards its MORE humiliating to take away the chance for them to keep hitting, to keep trying to get some measure of pride back by trying to get a turnover, a good hit, a first down. Nothing worse than the other team punting on first down, man.
I learned, I got better, and I know that it could happen to me again, but I wouldnt trade those losses, as humiliating as they were, for anything, because they taught me ALOT about myself and my team.
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Post by bulldog on May 31, 2006 10:36:14 GMT -6
Baseball has a 'mercy' rule - up by 15 runs and the game is over. Volleyball is played to a set point total and the game is over. The discus is thrown once, not repeatedly. None really compare to football. Basketball is close, but shutouts are very rare.
A game can be managed so the score doesn't get out of hand. The methods that are available might go against your competitive nature, but it can be done. I don't buy the argument that kids need reps to get ready for the following weeks. Teams have mid-season byes and still play well after the off week. I don't know how much kids get out of playing against a clearly outclassed opponent. If your scout team is better than your opponent's first team . . . .get your reps in practice.
If your team has outclassed the opposing team, here are some things that you can do: start by talking to the opposing coach. Acknowledge the mismatch. Ask for a running clock. Use the full 35 seconds to get your plays off. Take a delay penalty. You might even tell the opposing coach you will not pass so he can pack the box. Take a knee or punt the ball instead of running for another score. I know that many will consider this unacceptable, but you can even go so far as to tell him the sequence of your play calling. Maybe they will line-up and stop you once. At the least, your guys would be challenged. All of these suggestions are on us as coaches - not the kids.
Remember, we are teaching kids lessons by our actions. Pour it on when the game is over and you are showing them how to be a bully. Show the other team mercy and you show the kids class, sportmanship and compassion. Competiveness and these other values are not mutually exclusive. As a leader, we set the example - and the kids follow.
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Post by cqmiller on May 31, 2006 11:01:40 GMT -6
One sentence should sum up this whole issue...
"Don't be an @$$hole"
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Post by knight9299 on May 31, 2006 11:35:36 GMT -6
Our varsity squad had a rough year this past fall. Against the conference leader we found ourselves down by 30 in a flash. They had a shaky kicker. So they went for 2 all the time. At one point we are all wondering when they're going to at least try to kick- game was in hand and who knows you may need to kick a Figgie for the win down the road. Not once all game long. And they hung high fifties on us. Next week needing a win to make the playoffs, they needed a Figgie from the 5. Wide right No playoffs. Going for two when the game is in hand instead of trotting out your kicker that needs practice and game time experience- is running up the score. And stupid coaching. If you want to run up the score fine, but at least do while attempting to improve you players.
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Post by senatorblutarsky on May 31, 2006 12:47:57 GMT -6
Bulldog I understand what you are saying, and you are right that football doesn't compare to say track, golf, volleyball, etc. But often times I wonder why that is. Being totally outclassed is a problem in football because it is a safety issue. Why is 90-0 in football not the same as 13-0 in baseball? Is it because in baseball and volleyball there is no time limit? In neither sport is the game "over" until the last out or last point. Is that what makes football different?
I am not trying to justify running up the score. I feel I should not have to justify being competitive and having respect for the game.
I guess a few things here:
First, in our 74-0 game, we did everything we could do other than make it a complete farce. 3rd team played from 3:00 left in the 1st QR on. (3rd team for us is it... no one below that who is not in junior high). We ran dive right and Iso left. That was it.
Second the JV team we had in was not all that good- 2-3 JV record against their varsity still was a mismatch.
Third I don't buy the argument that kids need reps to get ready for the following weeks.
There have been years where we did not have enough kids to run a full scout team without having coaches and managers fill in. We had 15 on the roster in 2003... it so happened that 13 were pretty good players, so we won 5 games by the 45 pt. rule.
Reps against any team were better than what we could get at practice. Plus, when I start moving our TB to G because I have no real subs, my guys are more likely to get hurt. What is worse- win by 45 and stay healthy and be perceived as an a$$, or win by 35 and get 2 starters hurt in a prolonged game that just makes the opponent mad that we are toying with them (thus encouraging cheap shots)? I have no answer for that, but I've always made the choice to stay healthy.
That was not the case last year, but really, I can not afford to let the 3rd team in a varsity game (if we want to win the game) unless the game is "over".
Having class is vital in athletics and life. I think it is a great idea to promote it. It is ridiculous to legislate it, because it is a philosophical ideal; it does not translate well in to reality. I use our game as an example. The only way to not win by the margin we won by (and let me say, if we wanted it could have been 140-0 easily) would be to run a toss with no TB, pitch the ball back, stand there and let them score. Repeatedly. Or we could have taken a knee for the entire game with the score 20-0 (we had 4 defensive TDs that game...20 on O would have cut it close).
Which is worse on the losing end? Being beaten by 80 points or being treated like an invalid and having your opponent make a sham of competition by falling down and incorporating 3 stooges antics in to football. The answer is a matter of preference, I guess, but I'd rather take the beating than be humiliated by the babying.
Now I tend to work on the premise of the golden rule rather than some silly mandate... so if that game occurred in CT, I would have been suspended, because I have too much respect for the game and for our opponents to let a game devolve in to a comedy of errors.
And bulldog, I am not trying to imply that you do not have respect for the game... I just don't think you understand how bad this team was that we played. Now I am not sure whether or not that is true with the situation that prompted the CT ruling, but the point I am making is the score has little to do with whether or not someone is "running it up". I've seen games that ended 35-7, where I felt the winner "padded the stats/score" at the end.
The bottom line is that it is a bad rule. There are too many variables and while it is unfortunate, we can not legislate kindness. All we can do is legislate stupidity under the guise of class and sportsmanship, but someone will always find a loophole. (As an example, we've had a 45 pt. rule for some time. Two years ago a team wanted to set a bunch of offensive records and played starters the whole game on O and all backups on D against an out-manned opponent... final 112-62. All they had to do to comply with the CT rule was not score the last TD and win 106-62. Maybe that is better, but I can tell you I'd be more ticked off if I knew you were giving me scores just so you could prove that I can not stop you from scoring in the 100s)
The message I want to send as a coach is that of respect for opponents- which means that when the game is "over" we will keep playing hard, so we both have an opportunity to improve. To me,more respect is shown if my kids always play hard against your kids- even though it might be my 115# TB trying to run through your starters behind a line of all freshman. Doing this not only makes my team better, it makes our opponent better too, because when they make good plays, they know they made them- they were not gift-wrapped and hand delivered.
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Post by playfast on Jun 1, 2006 5:20:11 GMT -6
Is it ethical to tell a player on your team (3rd or 4th team guy) to take a knee and not play hard because of the score. We are telling those kids in unsaid words to let up. When kids let up now they are at a risk of injury.
I like it when we are ahead by a huge margin and my third team is struggling against the varsity of the other squad. It is a great teaching tool down the line for those young guys. When we've been down by a huge number my top kids are still getting the reps they need and I intergrate the younger guys in at times. I have found even against the dominant teams jv squad we still could have trouble moving the ball and stopping them.
I would be highly upset if a team just starts taking a knee on purpose. I would rather have my team continue to fight through the adversity and get better.
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Post by los on Jun 1, 2006 6:18:08 GMT -6
Me too playfast! I can remember one particular game we played in our first season against a team a couple classifications higher than us(schedule filler). On our last possession we put together a nice 8-10 play drive against mostly their 2nd team with a few remaining starters, who were actually playing very hard trying for the shutout at this point. Neither team had let up and if you didn't look at the scoreboard, you may have thought this was a close contest. Anyhow, we mixed in running plays that had worked a little with the rest of the boss's passing playbook and drove in for a score with seconds left on the clock! The fans on both sides of the field erupted in "real" cheers, sounded like we just won the Superbowl. The players were fired up, parents cheering loudly snapping photos, cheer leaders doing cartwheels and all that. This last scoring drive made the final score 68-6, we didn't win by the way lol! But we got better in a lot of ways!
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Post by coachmacplains on Jun 1, 2006 7:29:14 GMT -6
Look fellas, I have been on both sides of this issue. I beat someone 40-0 once and got put on probation for it. I had my third string QB score on a 3 and 35 QB sneak that EVERYONE knew was coming given that I had run it the previous two plays...THe next year when we played that team, I literally coached the most boring second half of football ever, we marched down to the 20 and kneel on the ball. It sucked, but I would have been fired otherwise, under the 30 pt rule that had been adopted. In my previous teams, I have been shelled 55-0,63-0,49-0. I had a team kick an onsides against us when they were up 35-0. While that coach was a total *thingy* The other coaches had pulled their starters, we were just outclassed and out coached. It happens. But those losses, they made me NOT want to lose like that again, they made me a better coach. We are denying those coaches, as well as those players, the chance to see if they can step up and become better men after a shattering loss like that. In some regards its MORE humiliating to take away the chance for them to keep hitting, to keep trying to get some measure of pride back by trying to get a turnover, a good hit, a first down. Nothing worse than the other team punting on first down, man. I learned, I got better, and I know that it could happen to me again, but I wouldnt trade those losses, as humiliating as they were, for anything, because they taught me ALOT about myself and my team. Agreed.
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Post by tog on Jun 1, 2006 7:42:14 GMT -6
why don't those pansies just not keep score?
what a gay rule
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Post by coachnorm on Jun 1, 2006 8:03:04 GMT -6
Look, I think this is a ridiculous rule, but some of the rhetoric on here is ridiculous as well. I agree with Bulldog and cqmiller. Your team achieves nothing by running up a score on another team. In fact you often do harm to many of the principles you're trying to teach. BUT, nothing screws up the game worse than when a bunch of people who know nothing about the game try to legislate solutions.
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Post by tog on Jun 1, 2006 8:06:18 GMT -6
nothing screws up the game worse than when a bunch of people who know nothing about the game try to legislate solutions. as a radical libertarian, i totally agree this is my main issue with it
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Post by jhanawa on Jun 1, 2006 14:49:05 GMT -6
No one wants to pound a group of kids into oblivion, but at the same time, it really hurts your own team when you are denied the reps required to stay sharp. So IMO, at the HS or College level, there is too much downside to not getting the reps to stay sharp, the other team should be coached well enough to compete on the field, If not, maybe its their coach they should consider suspending or firing? A team that gets beat 74-0 means the kids are giving up and not competing, getting intimidated and such, this is correctable by COACHING, regardless of talent, if there is great effort, pride and desire, your not going to get beat that bad. There might be exceptions like new school, etc, but if the other team is playing its subs and still whipping you, then thats just a reflection of bad coaching, again, just my opinion.
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Post by senatorblutarsky on Jun 1, 2006 15:23:41 GMT -6
but some of the rhetoric on here is ridiculous as well.
Not to beat a dead horse... but in looking over the posts on here, I'm having a hard time finding any ridiculousness (other than some sarcasm by myself). The CT rule assigns an arbitrary value and tries to quantify class and sportsmanship- two entities that defy numeric value. So winning by 49 shows class and 50 does not?
Having a vastly superior team and calling off the dogs early in a 51-0 win where the JV team scores 30 pts. gets one suspended; leading 33-0 with a minute left, completing a fade for a TD, going for two and making it, running an onside kick- recovering it and completing another fade (plus another 2)... 49-0... classy. (OK, so this last paragraph is a little ridiculous).
I guess the bottom line is you coach by your philosophy, I will coach by mine... as long as I do not move to Connecticut (not much chance of that anyway).
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Post by coachmacplains on Jun 1, 2006 16:08:42 GMT -6
Just another 2 cents...If coaches on the field agree to shorten a game or alter it in some way due to a blowout, so be it. Beyond that, 45 point rules, running game clocks, or this new policy in CT have no place in football. I have no problem with associations having sportsmanship emphasis reminders, but many unintended and damaging consequences result when these one-size-fits-all policies are put in place.
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Post by blb on Jun 1, 2006 17:15:22 GMT -6
Maybe the ADs should be suspended first for scheduling a game with two so obviously mismatched teams or programs.
And, if the ADs had no choice because these were league or conference games - then perhaps the Grand Poobahs at the top of the pyramid need to be held accountable.
Hard to imagine that two schools of similar size with similar resources and commitment to excellence in both academics and athletics being involved in aberrations such as these, even if a coach is unethical.
Then, if the coach is being unethical in how the game is played - well, who is his is superior and responsible for his performance?
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Post by blb on Jun 1, 2006 17:38:18 GMT -6
Ya know, the more I think about this...
Last fall in week 7 we defeated a league opponent 54-0. Our number one running back did not play due to injury. We were ahead 34-0 at the half. Our starters did not play at all in the second half . The linesman (jokingly) chastised me for our kicker missing a PAT in the first half so the entire second half would not be running clock (it was eventually - Michigan has the 35-point rule).
So, by Connecticut standards, I should have been suspended the next week because the other school could not put forth a competitive team.
BTW - the year before, this same team beat us, a loss that kept us out of the state playoffs.
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