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Post by coachmyers on Jul 19, 2006 21:29:29 GMT -6
Okay, so I have a problem. I'm the offensive coordinator for our team and was last year. This year, I want to go to a zone run scheme. I researched it all offseason, talked to as many coaches as I could find and got all ready for this year. Today, when I went to talk to our line coach about it, he refused to teach the linemen the technique because teaching his linemen to step away from the "hole" (we're calling our IZ 23 and 24 b/c thats the track we're having our backs on). I tried explaining it to himbut he doesnt seem to want to cooperate. What do I do? Pull rank? Tell the head coach? He's important because I really cant coach all the technique and I have to coach up the quarterbacks. We also dont have any other line coaches.
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Post by Coach Huey on Jul 19, 2006 21:39:14 GMT -6
sounds like you guys need to have a complete staff meeting with the head coach involved. everyone needs to throw out their ideas about the zone scheme: do we use it? what techniques to we teach? pros/cons for each.
brainstorm and leave with a consensus you will all teach. i feel pretty sure that if you can show specifically that the scheme & techniques you've researched are sound, then the hc will listen and chances are ya'll will go with that scheme or a compromised version very similar. many, many ways to run zone. maybe your OL coach (or another coach on staff) can add something to what you've come up with that fits your situation.
i do not recommend saying "this is what we are doing. period" without having a staff meeting and brain-storm session. if nothing comes of that, then talk with the head coach alone and get his take. if he feels ok with how you plan on doing it, then HE will make that decision to go with it and then it becomes final. at that point, the OL coach should fall in line or risk being reassigned. at some point, he's got to be a team player and do what's best for the program. if he thinks there is a better way, then he should have the ability to express that in the staff meeting for you guys to discuss. even he brings nothing other than "i'm not teaching that" then i don't see how the head coach can disagree with you
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Post by phantom on Jul 19, 2006 21:40:25 GMT -6
If you're not on the same page at this late date it's too late. Your OL coach doesn't understand the concept and forcing him to teach it could be a disaster. Next offseason make sure that your OL coach is involved in the research.
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Post by bulldog on Jul 20, 2006 1:44:01 GMT -6
A couple of thoughts in addition
- You might want to get some cutups of the scheme to show the HC and OLC how effective the offense can be.
- It's my feeling that if you take the time to do the research and the HC is on-board with the change, then the OLC should do what the HC has set as the direction. If he refuses to teach what you want to do, then consider switching positions. You coach the OL and give him the receivers or RB's. You teach the OL the run game, and have him teach the WR's to block. When you teach the pass game, you take the WR/QB and he teaches the OL to pass block. When you propose this, he may get the message. I don't like to compromise schemes based on someone's ignorance and refusal to learn a new scheme.
In any case, you guys need to come together as a staff. Dissention shows and you guys will struggle if you don't work together.
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Post by groundchuck on Jul 20, 2006 4:35:34 GMT -6
You, the OL coach, and the HC need to meet to discuss this issue and get it solved ASAP.
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Post by coachjd on Jul 20, 2006 5:20:37 GMT -6
coach,
You need to get a staff meeting called ASAP and involve the staff. Get an understanding of how each position coach feels about the needs at each position to install the zone offense. Allow your assistant coaches a voice in the scheme and teaching and they may take ownership, force them to coach something and they will rebel.
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Post by phantom on Jul 20, 2006 5:24:01 GMT -6
When a guy says that he's not teaching a scheme where his guys "step away from the hole" that tells me that he has no clue about zone blocking. At this late date I don't think that it's possible for him to learn it well enough to teach it this year. If there are no other OL coaches on staff then I'm doubtful that there's any way to install it this year. Where was the OL coach during the offseason when you were learning the scheme?
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Post by brophy on Jul 20, 2006 7:25:16 GMT -6
I agree with everything here - have dealt with similar situations in the past.
The number one objection most position coaches have to stuff like this is NOT BEING PREPARED (out of 'rank' being pulled - being left out of the decision process - being "TOLD" what to do)
Each position coach should feel autonomous and free to teach HIS way. From reading this, to me, I could see how the Oline guy could feel "Ambushed" in a sense. I also recognize your desire to be more efficient on offense. Unfortunately, it would be MY opinion that it IS late in the game to spring this on the OL coach, however, if you can package this / frame this in a way that you are not just making moves independent of the OL guy (stoke his ego a bit to get him on-board) and then going over his head to get the HC to back you up....
Talk it out......break out the beer and the bar napkins....try to shoot holes in everything - when you've proven your point (overcome his objections) he'll be on board 100%, rather than leaving it open to fester as it is now.
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Post by optionguy on Jul 20, 2006 11:59:11 GMT -6
Why did you wait until this time to tell the other coaches what you want to run? If you have the responsibility and authority (apparently you do, based on your post) to make the final decision about your scheme, then YOU are responsible for making sure that everyone understands AND accepts their roles fully. Since you did not do this (again, based on your post), you are responsible for making "things right."
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Post by gamedog on Jul 20, 2006 12:32:43 GMT -6
I agree with optionguy. You should have at least let everyone know what you were doing and kept them up to date with the changes. Waiting until the last minute I kinda tough. But also, if you have complete control of what is being run then the O line coach should do what you want done without fail.
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Post by spreadattack on Jul 20, 2006 12:42:17 GMT -6
Good stuff all around. First, I agree that it's rather difficult to run the zone if you have an OL Coach who doesn't know how to run it. His comment about stepping away from the hole really is just masking the fact that he doesn't know how to make it work. And he's probably right. I don't know a good zone team that doesn't have a very good OL coach who believes in the zone and can teach it well.
That said, I'd have a staff meeting and just calmly explain that you've been doing a lot of work on the subject and really think it'd be great for the staff. Make sure to show cutups of teams doing it well, offer to sit down and spend as much time as necessary with any position coaches, and offer to give them any tapes or materials you have. You've got to be the salesman and make it work.
The fact is that it probably is too late. If your OL coach isn't comfortable then probably the scheme is not going to work and next year you'll be back to the same old stuff. Probably what I'd do is see if you can't play with the schemes and come to a consensus where you can't work in some "zone concepts" into existing schemes to get everyone comfortable with it, and then in the spring visit a school that runs the zone very well to see them practice it and learn hands on. This is the best way for your staff and coaches (and yourself) to really learn the zone. It's no fun to wait a year but I'm not sure what choice you have.
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Post by fbdoc on Jul 20, 2006 12:44:53 GMT -6
Echo to the rest of the posters - COMMUNICATION is the key. If you got the go ahead from your HC to research this then you should have contacted the position coaches so they would have time to prepare. Make sure you go back to your OL coach and, if needed, let him blow off some (more) steam before getting his input. Bottom line - if you're the OC make sure your coaches are on board with you!
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Post by poweriguy on Jul 20, 2006 20:47:32 GMT -6
I agree with what's been said. Just going by coachmyers post, If I were the OL coach, I would feel a bit ambushed. You teach the kids a certain way all spring and summer, and close to 2 weeks before official practice, you want to teach a whole new system of blocking? I would kind of freakout too. lol .
It nice to talk about woulda, coulda, shoulda, but right now it's too late.
Have that meeting like everyone else suggested. Sell the OLC and HC on the zone scheme. Do it over a few beers or lunch or dinner. Be men about it. You don't want the OLC thinking that big ole knife is comming straight for his back.
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Post by phantom on Jul 20, 2006 21:15:22 GMT -6
It may already be too late. It's, at most, a couple of weeks before camp. Unless the OL coach has a decent idea about zone blocking already I don't think he can learn the nuances in that time. They may need to keep the old offensive system in place and possibly dabble some in zone.
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Post by coachmyers on Jul 20, 2006 22:36:55 GMT -6
It does sound like its too late at this point. The biggest problem is that he's been gone all summer. He made half of our spring practices and two summer ones. He's been on vacation, lives far away and has family responsibilities so I understand his lack of attendance. Ultimately it is my fault for not making sure we were on the same page back in spring.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 21, 2006 8:32:41 GMT -6
I don't know...maybe I am naive..BUT... if you guess don't think you can teach another COACH the zone scheme in a week or two... HOW ON EARTH do you expect the players to get it prior to the playoffs?
Covered...Uncovered...the rest is technique.
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Post by Coach Huey on Jul 21, 2006 8:39:35 GMT -6
if he's only made half the practices ... why is he STILL your line coach?
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Post by coachcb on Jul 21, 2006 8:45:39 GMT -6
I hate to say it, but I'm with phantom on this one- life's going to be tough if the guys digging his heels in this late in game. We had a similar situation erupt last season at the freshman level- our OL coach/OC didn't understand how to run several of our blocking schemes. He just started making bass-akwards stuff up on the fly. I set up a meeting thye second day of camp because I wanted to clear it up but the dude became even more belligerant... When the varsity HC stepped in and set him straight, he just refused to practice or call the blocking schemes he didnt't understand...
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Post by coachmyers on Jul 21, 2006 10:00:27 GMT -6
I don't do the hiring/firing. I know a guy who says hes interested, but he's waiting to figure out where he's teaching before he gets into a coaching job.
It's hard to teach someone if they don't want to learn. Its not like it would take more than one session to explain it and then take some time to ingrain the concept with some cutups and experimentaton.
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Post by phantom on Jul 21, 2006 10:55:06 GMT -6
See, as an OL coach I don't think it's that simple. It took me quite a while to really get comfortable with it. I don't think that you can get a handle on all the subtle teaching points and what-ifs in a week.
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Post by kcbazooka on Jul 21, 2006 12:59:40 GMT -6
Boy, I guess I have a different view than most on this topic -- it is not too late to make a change to zone - Surely the head coach was involved in the decision to run zone -- he and you need to get together and then explain to the line coach that you WILL be putting in zone this year. Does the head coach teach a segment? Could he coach either the line or the QB and you switch to the line? 2-a-days don't start for two weeks - it is not too late to put in a zone blocking scheme...
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Post by wildcat on Jul 21, 2006 13:12:07 GMT -6
Guy sounds like a pain in the ass...have worked with several like that! My guess (based on previous experience) is that this guy will do everything he can to sandbag you and will ENSURE that your zone scheme, no matter how sound it is, will fail. And then, when it DOES fail, he will be the guy saying, "See, I told you so!".
Guys like that are cancers...makes me SICK to see a coach whose ego writes checks that his knowledge can't cash.
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Post by tog on Jul 21, 2006 14:20:56 GMT -6
get rid of his ass, and you coach the ol
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Post by optionguy on Jul 23, 2006 13:59:24 GMT -6
get rid of his ass, and you coach the ol Easy to say; tough to do, in most cases. If you are in a leadership position, you are (1) responsible for making sure that your assistants are not only on board with you but are (2) able to do what you want. The first is easy to address, if they aren't with you, get rid of them; and if releasing them isn't an option, minimize their influence on the team. The 2nd part is much more difficult. If the coach is with you, but doesn't know what to do, you are responsible, as his leader, for making sure he can do what you want. We're discussing HS/MS football, not college/pro football. The HS/MS HC/OC/DC is responsible for making sure that a willing coach is able to coach what is required of him--t hat is why you are a leader!(BTW, I know what it is like to fire someone, and I don't do it lightly because I am a failure everytime I let go of someone.)
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Post by khalfie on Jul 23, 2006 14:42:17 GMT -6
Wow... As a person struggling with the Zone concept right now... and not being an o-line coach, but working with a o-line coach, there's two things that must happen... 1. The Head Coach has to inform the entire team this is the way we are going becuase this is what will make us successful. 2. Someone has to get with that O-line coach and talk to him like he's a 5 yr old, until he knows the zone concepts inside and out... and then make sure he can communicate that information to the offensive line. We have spent our entire summer learning the uncovered / covered principle... and the majority of our linemen still don't know when they are covered or uncovered... more so, getting them to realize that that man right in front of them isn't their man, is like telling a kid not to eat the freshly baked apple pie. I'm not a fan of the zone... seems to me, better teams can easily make defensive plays against it... especially if your linemen aren't aggressive and mobile... But again... I say let it go, and run SG Spread Option.
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Post by brophy on Jul 23, 2006 15:23:25 GMT -6
whether you are intent on doing this or not (I still think you can...but it is was a real disservice to your guy to wait so late) - your main objective now has to be converting your coach into a born-again believer in zone, because at some point it's going to hit the fan in the season, and he's going to resent you for making the switch (without him) and deliver a "I told you this wasn't going to work...." deals.....and his attitude will have already infected the kids (who, by his apprehension, will be confused as all get out).
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Post by runtheball86 on Jul 23, 2006 19:41:31 GMT -6
Chain of Command Head Coach OC Line Coach ..... Seems easy enough to solve the problem - if the Head Coach is on board with zone then the Line Coach BETTER do the same ... if the Head Coach is NOT on board with zone then you need to give up your quest for now - do NOT let the kids see a divided staff.
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Post by coachmyers on Jul 23, 2006 23:25:52 GMT -6
Thanks guys, this has all been great help. The head coach is somewhat indifferent to whether or not we run zone. He was supportive of the change and is in favor of if, but he was less than adament about its implementatnio. I think it would be best if he and I worked it out for both our working relationship and the team. I'm going to focus on attempting to work out with him what kind of blocking we can do. I get the feeling that some of the conflict is going to be about ego ("MY" system vs. "HIS" system) I really hope not and that is not the intent but he brought it up already in our brief conversation about it. I'm sure it doesn't help that I'm a 23 year old former QB and WR and he was a former college all american. I'm willing to make concessions about what we run this year, especially since he doesnt know the system but if there are concessions this year, I will make it clear that we will be running the zone the following year.
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Post by poweriguy on Jul 24, 2006 0:02:56 GMT -6
One thing you could do down the line , you are the OC, put in a play or two that are zone blocked and call them "strong right zone at 6" or "26/25 zone " or however your terminology works. I don't think he would be to freaked if it were one or two plays, as opposed to the whole offencive blocking sceme. Draw up the play(s) and hand it to the line coach, and let him know this play is going to be called, so get the kids ready.
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kdcoach
Sophomore Member
Posts: 194
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Post by kdcoach on Jul 24, 2006 8:47:39 GMT -6
Coachmyers, sounds to me like you need to talk to your HC first. You two need to get on the same page. It all comes back to him anyway if your offense doesn't work. Once the two of you decide what you are going to do then you go to the OL Coach and help him understand that this is how you're going to the field this year. He can either get on board or get off, his decision. There can be no optional behavior once the direction has been set. Don't let the kids see a divided staff...by the way whether you are 23 or 53 is irrelevant. He works for you, regardless of what he did in college. History is only good to learn lessons from.
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