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Post by CVBears on Dec 9, 2007 17:20:25 GMT -6
The announcer for the Steelers-Patriots plays mentioned that some people refer to trick plays as grab-bag plays (and I've heard other coaches say the very same thing at clinics, meetings, etc.). The announcer made the statement that he refers to trick plays as "keep the defense honest" plays. Other than the fact that it came from an announcer, is there anything of substance to the "Keep the defense honest" view point?
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Post by saintrad on Dec 9, 2007 17:24:59 GMT -6
it comes down the simple philospohy of: "I need to use my trick play (in a timely manner) before my opponent does to maintain its maximum effect."
The second part would be how you define "trick play" and "grab bag". If your coaching philospohy is contrarian or highly aggressive the answer would be "no". If you are extremely conservative then probably "yes."
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Post by coachbw on Dec 9, 2007 17:28:58 GMT -6
To me it depends a little bit on the trick play. Is a triple reverse flea-flicker option pass a grab bag play . . . probably. Is a reverse off of a sweep you run 8 times a game grab bag, probably not, that is more of an extension of what you do.
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Post by saintrad on Dec 9, 2007 17:29:50 GMT -6
To me it depends a little bit on the trick play. Is a triple reverse flea-flicker option pass a grab bag play . . . probably. Is a reverse off of a sweep you run 8 times a game grab back, probably not, that is more of an extension of what you do. agree with that assessment too |
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Post by los on Dec 9, 2007 17:44:09 GMT -6
I like that coachbw, so then a reverse "pass"..... off the reverse.... off the sweep.... you run 8 times a game, "could" be considered an extension of what you do, and so on and so on. And like saintman said, timing is critical.  One mans grab bag may be anothers innovation?  |
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Post by briangilbert on Dec 9, 2007 22:11:28 GMT -6
Why are "trick" or "gadget" plays considered bad form. Personally, I feel that the job of the offense is to score. Does it really matter how it is accomplished? If it takes a Double Reverse pass to score a TD then why not do it? I don't find trick plays any more risky then running 24/25 zone. If you feel it will get the job done then do it, grab bag my arse.
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Post by Yash on Dec 9, 2007 22:15:08 GMT -6
If you rep it, and you coach it up, is it really any different than any other play in your playbook? If you miss a block any play can be a 3 yard loss. YOu have to coach it up. If you run a HB pass tell the RB if it isn't there, run it or throw it out of bounds. But as long as you practice a play, it shouldn't be a risk. Any play can lose yards.
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Post by goldenbear76 on Dec 9, 2007 23:58:16 GMT -6
The thing is ...a lot of defensive coordinators will watch film night and day on you. They will be able to contain a lot of your offense if they're sound and well coached. "Trick" plays are nothing more than throwing something out there they haven't prepared for. We do it every single game. Whether we line up in a double wing and run Pitch left or right, whether we run Toss Pass, or we go 5 wide. Its something we practice that week and they have not prepared for. I love doing things like this during a game because if your successful, the defense starts to "think". Anytime you get defenses thinking or guessing, your in a good position to call offense.
It doesn't have to be a "trick" either. A lot of times you can run the exact same plays offensively out of different formations. Something they didn't prepare for.
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Post by coachjoe3 on Dec 10, 2007 0:13:00 GMT -6
Why are "trick" or "gadget" plays considered bad form . Personally, I feel that the job of the offense is to score. Does it really matter how it is accomplished? If it takes a Double Reverse pass to score a TD then why not do it? I don't find trick plays any more risky then running 24/25 zone. If you feel it will get the job done then do it, grab bag my arse. Agreed, it's almost as if some of these NFL announcers consider it "dirty pool" but if it gets you across the gl, so what? Might be related to the thread about some of the supposed cookie cutter NFL offenses. Any thing new for some people and it's like,"Uh-Oh" |
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Post by coachcalande on Dec 10, 2007 7:08:12 GMT -6
The announcer for the Steelers-Patriots plays mentioned that some people refer to trick plays as grab-bag plays (and I've heard other coaches say the very same thing at clinics, meetings, etc.). The announcer made the statement that he refers to trick plays as "keep the defense honest" plays. Other than the fact that it came from an announcer, is there anything of substance to the "Keep the defense honest" view point? yeah, same announcers called the jet sweep a "trick play"...sigh |
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Post by coachcalande on Dec 10, 2007 7:09:11 GMT -6
btw, did anyone other me think it foolish for Moss to tell the world "THE PATRIOTS MADE IT CLEAR NOBODY ELSE THROWS THE BALL BUT TOM, THEY MADE THAT CLEAR TO ME"
doesnt that seem like he gave away too much info? eh..
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Post by lochness on Dec 10, 2007 7:16:30 GMT -6
btw, did anyone other me think it foolish for Moss to tell the world "THE PATRIOTS MADE IT CLEAR NOBODY ELSE THROWS THE BALL BUT TOM, THEY MADE THAT CLEAR TO ME" doesnt that seem like he gave away too much info? eh.. Well, it's a moot point now because they've obviously changed their tune a bit.  Besides, historically, they've run a reverse pass or two in their time (I think they actually threw one against Pittsburgh in the last Playoff meeting). In terms of "grab bags," I agree with what most say. If the trick play comes off of something your base offense does, then it's not (by definition) a grab bag play. We run a reverse to our Z off of Iso action. Occasionally, we have him throw it on a reverse pass. That's clearly a trick play, but it also comes off of stuff we regularly do. If you are a Straight-T team, and all of a sudden you come out in 4-wide and run a double-reverse throwback screen-a-rooski with a hidden ball / statue of liberty play thrown in for good measure, you are clearly running a "grab bag" trick play. I think the Pats double-lateral play was actually NOT a grab bag play. The Pats run so many quick screens, slip screens, quick hitches, etc. that it matched up perfectly to what they typically would try to do (and did several times in the game.) Ballzy call. |
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Post by coachcalande on Dec 10, 2007 7:25:39 GMT -6
To me "grab bag" means you are CALLING PLAYS not CALLING AN OFFENSE.
Ie, grab bag coaches are probably now adding that play to their offense in addition to any other nifty play they picked up off the highlights last night.
grab bag to me means that you have a collection of plays that you can call, any time, anywhere with no real complimentary plays...not so much of a TOOL BOX but a BAG OF PLAYS.
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Post by coachcalande on Dec 10, 2007 7:27:18 GMT -6
SPEAKING OF MOSS- can we put to rest the idea that he "doesnt like to go over the middle"- he torched the Steelers over the middle several times yesterday.
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Post by lochness on Dec 10, 2007 10:16:06 GMT -6
Amen to that, coach...
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Post by groundchuck on Dec 10, 2007 10:48:42 GMT -6
Isn't a play action pass a "trick" play? I mean you are tricking the defense....fooling them into thinking you're running the ball then you throw it? By that same definition the wing-t Counter XX would be a "trick" play b/c there is a double handoff.
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Post by tiger46 on Dec 10, 2007 11:06:04 GMT -6
"SPEAKING OF MOSS- can we put to rest the idea that he "doesnt like to go over the middle"- he torched the Steelers over the middle several times yesterday."
Speaking of Moss, did anyone else laugh at Phil Simms when, after Randy Moss dropped that TD pass; Phil running through the replay, sagely came to the conclusion, "Randy Moss just doesn't like the high hard ones." rofl!
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tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 164
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Post by tedseay on Dec 10, 2007 11:15:48 GMT -6
The announcer for the Steelers-Patriots plays mentioned that some people refer to trick plays as grab-bag plays (and I've heard other coaches say the very same thing at clinics, meetings, etc.) Coach: Paul Brown and Bill Walsh called them "specials" -- and that's good enough for me. |
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Post by k on Dec 10, 2007 11:45:53 GMT -6
IMO all that matters is results.
"Grab bag" is A-OK with me as long as it is earning W's"
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Post by groundchuck on Dec 10, 2007 13:08:56 GMT -6
The announcer for the Steelers-Patriots plays mentioned that some people refer to trick plays as grab-bag plays (and I've heard other coaches say the very same thing at clinics, meetings, etc.) Coach: Paul Brown and Bill Walsh called them "specials" -- and that's good enough for me. Specials is actually how I refer to those types of plays on my play card. I have also seen/heard them called "exotics". |
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Post by spreadattack on Dec 10, 2007 15:47:27 GMT -6
"Specials" is a good term. Hopefully there's some point to why you're running them. What the Patriots did was good in the sense that (a) any time you throw it to Randy Moss the defense will freak out, and (b) if you haven't watched the Pats, their offense is very "college" in the sense that there's lots of quick flanker screens and bubbles and the like. (And I'm serious when I say that if the NFL rule with linemen being downfield on passes behind the LOS the Patriots would just straight up run the Airraid, with the current rules they have to be quicker and cuter about it.)
Manning yesterday torched a Ravens guy with an out and up by Gonzalez. Some would consider that a trick play.
The play the Pats ran is the same deal as when LT throws TD passes or when Tebow throws a jump-TD pass or when McFadden threw one against LSU - when you get the ball to dangerous guys the safeties like to come up. It's a way of making them either play honest or pay the price. If I'm the Chargers and a HB pass every now and again keeps the safeties from coming up to stop LT, then I've basically added a yard to every run he makes.
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Post by coachorr on Dec 10, 2007 21:36:59 GMT -6
Tony Cornheiser says that it depends on Karma. What an idiot, I hope they can these clowns that are on Monday Night before I turn it off forever.
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Post by Yash on Dec 10, 2007 23:05:47 GMT -6
We called them Exotics.
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Post by wingt74 on Dec 11, 2007 14:42:57 GMT -6
Exotics...hmmm, just think that word and football don't go together |
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Post by gregodagr8 on Dec 15, 2007 21:08:56 GMT -6
Ok just a reminder for you coaches who still like to call them "TRICK PLAYS"
The forward pass when it first was used was called a "trick play"
The Pistol and Spread were thought of as "gimmick" offenses
The fact is if it's legal it's a play not a "trick play" just not often used
Why is it they usually work? Because it's not the norm!
Call it what you want BUT I call them creative and innovative
The object of the game is to score points
It doesn't say how to do it, we as coaches think their is a proper way to score
It's like the unwritten rules in baseball they're not RULES
SCORE anyway you can, PASSING, RUNNING, or "TRICK PLAYS"
For all you Defensive GURU's who think it's not real football
Cry with OKLAHOMA!
LoL
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One mans grab bag may be anothers innovation? 
