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Post by joelee on Feb 27, 2008 8:28:04 GMT -6
When physically outmanned, what is your approach? Go for it unloading both barrels? Play slow and close to the vest trying to keep it close till the 4th with a chance to win? OTHER?
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Post by groundchuck on Feb 27, 2008 8:36:37 GMT -6
Been there, tried both approaches. Both have failed, both have succeeded. Here is the thing from my experience. If you are completely overmatched you are going to be giving up points, usually a lot of them. So I think you have to take some chances, like you said unload with both barrells. Now if you are completely out of the game and things are getting out of hand there is nothing wrong with slowing things down a bit and managing the disaster.
You have to coach and play to win the game. Once that is done you can decide if you want to reign it in and manage the disaster.
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Post by coachweav88 on Feb 27, 2008 9:27:17 GMT -6
Just do what you do. (Tony Dungy) If you normally unload, then do the same thing If you are normally conservative, play the same way. Keeping things the same helps players to feel confident because they are familiar with that style. If you are outmatched, you have to especially have to limit your mistakes and take advantage of their mistakes. Check out this recap. unbelievable. just do what you do blog.cleveland.com/biggame/2007/12/coldwater_28_cardinal_mooney_2.htmlColdwater was really outmanned in this one, but still ended up winning. They were getting dominated on the line. |
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Post by coachorr on Feb 27, 2008 10:20:46 GMT -6
Coachweav, great article. I will watch the video when I get home, big brither won't let us see it at school.
I think if there is anyway you can keep it within one score going into the fourth quarter. I might also add, key breakers early in the game may be a good idea. Example, if you are a wing T team, maybe you run a Buck Sweep throw back, or maybe a sucker trap.
The only thing I would worry about coming in with a "close to the vest mentality", is having no success early on and then having to try and play catch up after much failure. On the other hand, if you go three and out and only tick 20 sec. off the clock, it can be a very long night.
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Post by dubber on Feb 27, 2008 15:23:02 GMT -6
"Just do what you do. (Tony Dungy)" no offense meant but was tony dungy ever playing up in classification when he said that? what I mean is ...Small school vs large school? That's universal. You are always better off "doing what you do". DW teams don't go 5-wide because the coaching staff decided they need to be really aggresive.....they throw more of those blankety-blank corner routes off waggle than normal. Staying in the frame of your offensive considerations (but adjusting your attack based on gameplan) is "doing what you do". |
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Post by coachorr on Feb 27, 2008 16:46:07 GMT -6
The best defense is your offense. Especially as it is sitting on the sidelines, drinking Gatorade and cheering on your offense.
Calende, I like the mentality of more 4 downs. This in of itself is an "aggressive" strategy and plays into a the idea we are going to control the ball and the clock. (That is to say if 4th down is less than two yards and the ball is across the 50).
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Post by coachd5085 on Feb 27, 2008 16:46:17 GMT -6
This has been hashed around several times, so I will be brief and mathematical...
If you are outmanned, then the game is not a "fair" game (meaning each team does not have the same probability of winning the game...like a circle spinner with 3/4 red and 1/4 blue) Each time the ball is in play is a "spin". The best chance for the blue team to win is to LIMIT the number of chances or spins.
A chance or two might have to be taken in order to succeed, but overall by limiting the unfair events (each play) is by far the best chance to win when the odds are against you.
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Post by coachorr on Feb 27, 2008 16:49:29 GMT -6
Coach 5085, very good point. I was in a game where we were outmatched and we threw the ball to be "aggressive". At one point the spread of the game changed by two touchdowns in under 30 seconds off the clock.
We could have gone into the locker room at half, with a 7 or 14 point deficit, instead we went in with a 21 point deficit and that was huge. We ended up losing 54 to 7.
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Post by coachweav88 on Feb 27, 2008 18:25:41 GMT -6
What I meant by "do what you do" is stick with your philosophy. In your case Coach Calande would be ball control, limit the possessions the other team has. That's what you normally do, so don't change it because the other team has more talent. Not that you can't throw few wrinkles in, but don't change your whole philosophy for one game. That's all I meant by that comment.
In the article and video I posted, they preferred to unload with both barrels. That's what they've done all year, and that's what they did when they were outmanned.
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Post by kurtbryan on Feb 27, 2008 22:46:54 GMT -6
We have faced that problem annually, and it is EXACTLY the reason we developed our offensive system as the primary and only way to combat sheer size and strength advantage most of our opponents have over us, etc.
It makes it much tougher on the Defenses we play when our offensive sets force them to have as many of their players as possible on Individual Islands.
Divide into as many pieces as possible and conquer is one of the main tactics in our system.
KB
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Post by dubber on Feb 28, 2008 1:17:41 GMT -6
What I meant by "do what you do" is stick with your philosophy. In your case Coach Calande would be ball control, limit the possessions the other team has. That's what you normally do, so don't change it because the other team has more talent. Not that you can't throw few wrinkles in, but don't change your whole philosophy for one game. That's all I meant by that comment. In the article and video I posted, they preferred to unload with both barrels. That's what they've done all year, and that's what they did when they were outmanned. It would be murderous for an Air Raid team to try to run the ball 40 times in order to shorten the game versus a better opponent. Now they can do stuff like throw short and fight to stay inbounds, milk the clock, etc......... .........{the kicker}.......... .......if that fits their philosophy. Or they can think that their execution and fast pace will eventually wear the opposing defense down.....or that they have ways to combat the studs on the other team by exploiting that one weakness they do have. The worst I ever saw a Texas Tech team with Mike Leach was in their win over Oklahoma this season. Oklahoma, clearly a pantry full of bluechippers. Texas Tech, uh, Crabtree. Texas Tech dominated that game (doing what they do), and then they tried to slow the game down, run the ball in a 4:00 situation, etc., etc., etc. It was pitiful to watch this high flying offense ground itself, and it almost cost them the game. |
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Post by coachorr on Feb 28, 2008 9:48:23 GMT -6
Dubber, I like your comments on an Air Raid or Spread Offense being able to shorten the game by throwing underneat and staying in bounds. I think you are absolutely right about a team changing "who they are" to be competitive.
Kurt Bryan, I think practice time that it takes for other teams to prepare for the A-11 in and of itself is an advantage to your team.
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Post by tango on Feb 28, 2008 13:12:19 GMT -6
Run the ball and play it safe. On third and longs run trap or screens. On third and one or forth and one play action and go for it. You are not suppose to win but go for it but don't let them blow it out early. Has been great for me in the past.
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Post by wingt74 on Feb 28, 2008 14:21:08 GMT -6
Depends on your skill positions.
If you have some explosive players, yeah, you can take the high risk approach to offense...and probably defense too.
I've been in the situation of having no explosive players, and being the smaller / weaker team. Then you have to grind it out, and play low risk ball...hope for some bounces & breaks.
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Post by dubber on Feb 28, 2008 14:26:01 GMT -6
Im not sure you can create a true "overmatched" picture if you use two division I college teams as an example unless you are talking Military Academy for example.. lets face it, if you are talking division I you are talking about coaches who recruit players to fit their system. the reality is that all of the kids on Tech are talented, all can run and catch and jump and all were stars on their hs teams more or less. some of the receivers are probably faster than some of the dbacks that they face? I really dont know, just saying maybe? A fair point. I would say outside of Crabtree, most OK db's were faster than TT's WR's.......just my observations though. A TRUE mismatch situation is what we are looking at here, and I think the comparision of Academy's talent to DI talent is fair here. I wonder if a Malzahn-type offense would work too? Use whatever offensive system, just go no-huddle hurry up the whole game. I mean, navy kids are in great shape anyways, just try to run them into the ground. Maybe, maybe not. |
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Post by wingt74 on Feb 28, 2008 14:26:12 GMT -6
Just do what you do. (Tony Dungy) If you normally unload, then do the same thing If you are normally conservative, play the same way. Keeping things the same helps players to feel confident because they are familiar with that style. If you are outmatched, you have to especially have to limit your mistakes and take advantage of their mistakes. Check out this recap. unbelievable. just do what you do blog.cleveland.com/biggame/2007/12/coldwater_28_cardinal_mooney_2.htmlColdwater was really outmanned in this one, but still ended up winning. They were getting dominated on the line. Disagree with this if your season is struggling a bit. I had a 3-4 team going into a game with a top 10, 7-0 team. If I would have told my kids, "We're going to just do what we normally do, and hope to win"...there would be a huge downer. Now, if my messsage to the team, and strategy is "they're good, but they have weaknesses, and us coach's have a great game plan to attack those weaknesses" I KNOW I would have a different response from the kids. Now, if it's a 7-0 vs a 7-0...but on paper you are physically outmatched...well, then I agree, use what got you there. BTW, that QB for the underdog team is blazing fast  Hard to call that an upset. |
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Post by carson101 on Feb 28, 2008 14:48:37 GMT -6
run what always works and if they can't stop it then run it again until they do and then when they least expect it hit'em for the big play if your defense will swarm to the ball you have a chance but keep in mind if you have a hard time controling them you have your work cut out for you
best wishes
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Post by davecisar on Feb 28, 2008 16:29:58 GMT -6
Im not sure you can create a true "overmatched" picture if you use two division I college teams as an example unless you are talking Military Academy for example.. lets face it, if you are talking division I you are talking about coaches who recruit players to fit their system. the reality is that all of the kids on Tech are talented, all can run and catch and jump and all were stars on their hs teams more or less. some of the receivers are probably faster than some of the dbacks that they face? I really dont know, just saying maybe? A fair point. I would say outside of Crabtree, most OK db's were faster than TT's WR's.......just my observations though. A TRUE mismatch situation is what we are looking at here, and I think the comparision of Academy's talent to DI talent is fair here. I wonder if a Malzahn-type offense would work too? Use whatever offensive system, just go no-huddle hurry up the whole game. I mean, navy kids are in great shape anyways, just try to run them into the ground. Maybe, maybe not. Since Army went back to passing a bunch, they have failed miserably. On the other hand Air Froce and Navy..... |
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Post by tog on Feb 28, 2008 16:35:35 GMT -6
i think one big thing that narrows the talent gap is being able to cut
this is why the ncaa rules are so much better than fed
fed rules with all the anti-cutting stuff in them widens the talent gap too much imo
if i can teach my little scrappers to scramble and cut and like doing it better than your gorillas then i have a chance
then it just becomes a matter of timing and cajones mostly instead of just who is the best athlete or who is bigger
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Post by dubber on Feb 28, 2008 17:56:32 GMT -6
A fair point. I would say outside of Crabtree, most OK db's were faster than TT's WR's.......just my observations though. A TRUE mismatch situation is what we are looking at here, and I think the comparision of Academy's talent to DI talent is fair here. I wonder if a Malzahn-type offense would work too? Use whatever offensive system, just go no-huddle hurry up the whole game. I mean, navy kids are in great shape anyways, just try to run them into the ground. Maybe, maybe not. Since Army went back to passing a bunch, they have failed miserably. On the other hand Air Froce and Navy..... My post suggests they should tempo their offensive attack. Army probably doesn't have the athletes to run pro-style (although it should be noted that Navy was awful running the flexbone in the years before PJ got there--------------maybe not what you run, but how you run/teach it?). My point, however, deals with a radical way of attacking a defense that would put stress on a team not use to defending a 2-minute drill pace for the entire game. Maybe the pro-style offense looks better if they run it 100 mph. Like I said, just a thought on tempo. |
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Post by khalfie on Feb 28, 2008 18:47:05 GMT -6
Just do what you do. (Tony Dungy) If you normally unload, then do the same thing If you are normally conservative, play the same way. Keeping things the same helps players to feel confident because they are familiar with that style. If you are outmatched, you have to especially have to limit your mistakes and take advantage of their mistakes. Check out this recap. unbelievable. just do what you do blog.cleveland.com/biggame/2007/12/coldwater_28_cardinal_mooney_2.htmlColdwater was really outmanned in this one, but still ended up winning. They were getting dominated on the line. Out manned? In the state championship game? With a 13-1 record? I realize Cardinal Mooney is a beast... but Coldwater was the last team on record to beat Cardinal... I have to question that one as "outmanned"... If you want to see outmanned... you need to come to a Panther game... What I like to do, when I'm outmanned... and being that we've been outmanned the majority of our games... Is get into the fetal position and suck my thumb... Sometimes I like to rock back and forth and concentrate on my quiet space... But what I'll never do... is pee my pants and blame it on a spilled lemonade... Well... I'll never do that again... its kind of embarrasing as the HC.  |
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Post by morris on Feb 28, 2008 21:29:33 GMT -6
The thing I think is a little strange is even is taking an offensive approach to this. The original post said nothing about offense or defense. I guess we are all going off the thought we can not prevent the other team from scoring. Now there si a ton of factors here but the constant is time. There is only so much time in a game. I am not a big fan of the moral victory thing but sometimes with a program that is what you are shooting for a little. If the game plan does not work out in your favor you want it to be close enough your guys feel like they can "play" with the other team.
If I was outmatched playing a passing team I would drop a ton an dmake them run the play. The main thing is stress not giving up big plays. A running play runs something like 40 sec off the clock. When outmatched make them run the ball and do your best to stop the run. It eats clock. By defense you can force a team to do something else. If they throw the ball a ton dropping 8 will get them to run it.
The other thing is when you scout you have to look for details that are not just typical (formation and such). My first years coaching there was a team with a QB with a great arm. That QB woudl force th ball into spots and wait out a throw instead of running. I made it very clear to my team the QB was going to make some throws that wil make you shake your head. I also made sure my defense knew that Qb was goign to force the ball andmake mistakes. The Qb tried to take too much on. they are kids and they have personalities. Coach against the personality. I also think you have to out scheme the other team at times. We have all been out coached at sometime and we have all out coached a guy. the best make mistakes too.
48 minutes is not enough time for the best team to win just the team that plays th ebest to win
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Post by coachweav88 on Feb 29, 2008 19:58:20 GMT -6
It would be murderous for an Air Raid team to try to run the ball 40 times in order to shorten the game versus a better opponent. Now they can do stuff like throw short and fight to stay inbounds, milk the clock, etc......... .........{the kicker}.......... .......if that fits their philosophy. Or they can think that their execution and fast pace will eventually wear the opposing defense down.....or that they have ways to combat the studs on the other team by exploiting that one weakness they do have. The worst I ever saw a Texas Tech team with Mike Leach was in their win over Oklahoma this season. Oklahoma, clearly a pantry full of bluechippers. Texas Tech, uh, Crabtree. Texas Tech dominated that game (doing what they do), and then they tried to slow the game down, run the ball in a 4:00 situation, etc., etc., etc. It was pitiful to watch this high flying offense ground itself, and it almost cost them the game. THANK YOU DUBBER!!! THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I WAS GETTING AT! |
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Post by sweep26 on Feb 29, 2008 21:26:06 GMT -6
When you are greatly over-matched physically -- you better have a plan to "shorten" the game, and keep your opponents offense off of the field. Be precise in your execution, make first downs and manufacture a few long, successful scoring drives.
Also, I strongly agree with Tog's post!! The federation rules are making it increasingly difficult for small guys to succeed when they are physically over-matched.
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Post by coachorr on Mar 1, 2008 12:13:36 GMT -6
Morris,
Doesn't "shorten the game" mean let the clock run and use it to your advantage by running the ball throwing shorter pass routes and completing them and staying in bounds? (rhetorical question)
If it is so, then the issue of 48 miunutes has been addressed thoroughly.
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Post by coachd5085 on Mar 1, 2008 17:59:27 GMT -6
.........{the kicker}.......... .......if that fits their philosophy. Or they can think that their execution and fast pace will eventually wear the opposing defense down.....or that they have ways to combat the studs on the other team by exploiting that one weakness they do have. The worst I ever saw a Texas Tech team with Mike Leach was in their win over Oklahoma this season. Oklahoma, clearly a pantry full of bluechippers. Texas Tech, uh, Crabtree. Texas Tech dominated that game (doing what they do), and then they tried to slow the game down, run the ball in a 4:00 situation, etc., etc., etc. It was pitiful to watch this high flying offense ground itself, and it almost cost them the game. THANK YOU DUBBER!!! THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I WAS GETTING AT! I have to agree with calande here...that is not a good analogy to an overmatched H.S team. Relying on execution ....well, that kind of depends what your definition of "overmatched" is. I would argue that being "overmatched" probably means that your opponent out executes you as well. If you think your opponent is going to "win" the majority of the snaps (the definition of being over matched) then you should limit that number. |
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Post by davecisar on Mar 3, 2008 7:11:02 GMT -6
How would an overmatched team "wear out" an opponent? Not sure I follow.
My guess an overmatched team has few athletes and even fewer backups. The team that has the players/numbers/depth would rarely if ever be "worn" out by a vastly inferior team IMHO.
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Post by coachorr on Mar 3, 2008 8:26:11 GMT -6
Any defense on the field for a long period of time is going to tire throughout the game.
One thing to consider, if team so and so (the better team) is generally better than most of the teams they play, there might be a chance that they have never had to play their starters for four quarters. This could be a hidden advantage late in the season.
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Post by morris on Mar 3, 2008 8:50:07 GMT -6
Morris, Doesn't "shorten the game" mean let the clock run and use it to your advantage by running the ball throwing shorter pass routes and completing them and staying in bounds? (rhetorical question) If it is so, then the issue of 48 miunutes has been addressed thoroughly. coachorr, I never said "shorten the game". It is true what I was talking about would shorten the game but it was some what of a different approach. I was talking about doing that on DEFENSE not on offense. My opponent is not going to let the play clock run down. Nor is he going to try to stay in bounds or throw short passes. If I can force him to run the ball and throw short by scheme I can make him eat clock. In Education of a Coach there is a section talking about Super Bowl 25. The plan the whole weak was if Thomas rushes for 125+ yrds the Giants would win. They did not feel like they coudl match up with the Bills in the passing game nor keep up with the scoring if allowed to do so. Most posters were addressing how they would handle being outmatched from an offensive POV with a few comments about special teams and defense. dave, I think what they mean by wear out an opponent is by doing the opposite of most people's think in that you turn it into a high possession game. Get out of bound as much as you can. Snap the ball as fast as you can. The idea being you are in better shape and you can "run" them off the field. Now that is not a one game fix. You have to play that way from the day one. I think this goes to the Shilo Christian game. Shilo could not stop the other team's RB. |
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Post by coachorr on Mar 3, 2008 11:08:28 GMT -6
Yes, but many of us have said, "shorten the game", and all of us are talking about the offensive side of the ball.
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Hard to call that an upset.
