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Post by utchuckd on Apr 22, 2007 22:11:27 GMT -6
Does anybody do a fitness test when your players report for fall camp? If so what do you do? How does attendance at summer workouts affect it? What happens if they don't pass?
Thanks.
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Post by Yash on Apr 22, 2007 22:25:09 GMT -6
Here is what I've learned from testing and what not. You can test guys and record numbers and it looks nice on the wall, but when push comes to shove you play the kid that has the best results when lined up across from someone. We don't play football in shorts and tshirts so a tenth of a second faster in the 40 doesn't mean a whole lot if the kid can't catch the ball. You can fit test if you want, but if the kid doesn't pass your test and is still your best right tackle, you are still going to play him right?
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Post by los on Apr 22, 2007 22:54:27 GMT -6
Thats a good question ut, it would almost seem not necessary nowdays, with the year round training and all? You know, being able to monitor the players nearly all summer. Back in the ancient days,(when you had to stay in shape on your own, i.e. no organized workouts to speak of), you had your physical, then 2 a day conditioning started in early aug.(the better part of a week's worth for us) If you survived without quitting, you passed the fitness test, lol!
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Post by tog on Apr 23, 2007 5:23:56 GMT -6
I guess, my main question would be: why?
If you are testing them as a way to get them out and working the rest of the summer then I can see it.
Otherwise, what does the test accomplish? If a big lineman fails the test, but he is your best lineman that can play at least one side of the ball all night hard, why punish him and the team (and your record) if he fails some sort of test?
I guess it depends on the reasons and the consequences you have in mind.
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Post by utchuckd on Apr 23, 2007 7:11:00 GMT -6
Sorry if I didn't make that clear. We were trying to think of ways to encourage summer workout attendance. One thing we talked about was telling them when we report for fall camp everybody's gonna have to run (this much) in (this much time). So if they come for the summer they will be able to knock it out. Or maybe add or subtract time depending on attendance?
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Post by spartancoach on Apr 23, 2007 8:08:31 GMT -6
We test and "punish" for failing scores purely as a way to try to make sure kids stay focused in the summer. We do a 1 mile run: linemen under 10 min.; everyone else under 8 min. Then we test bench and squat. Failing is achieving less than your last test before school ended. The punishment is a few extra sprints (or whatever conditioning is) during two-a-days.
Personally, I do not think the benefit is worth the time necessary to test everyone.
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bigcroz
Junior Member
Go STAGS!!
Posts: 356
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Post by bigcroz on Apr 23, 2007 8:29:59 GMT -6
I do not test......too expensive(read too much time) for me. To get kids to participate in the summer what I do is pass out the practice schedule for the first week of practice prior to school getting out for the summer along with a schedule of summer sessions. I schedule a 1 hour conditioning period after each of the first 5 days of practice. If the kid makes 85% of the summer sessions he is "rewarded" by being excused from the conditioning period. I am not punishing those that do not make the summer sessions just rewarding those that do.
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Post by fbdoc on Apr 23, 2007 8:48:41 GMT -6
I see the benefits or testing as an encourager or using "teams" with reward for the team(s) where everyone meets the fitness goal, but I agree with Tom and BigCroz - we don't test because it takes away from other things. We condition, using football related drills, and we find out quickly who is in shape, who is fast, etc and use that as our motivator (or punisher). Kids who can't run a mile in 10 minutes - or 12, 14, etc. - still might be players for us. But if they can't run, hit, tackle, block, etc. I KNOW they can't play for us... unless of course there isn't anyone else on the depth chart!
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Post by donaldduck on Apr 23, 2007 8:57:37 GMT -6
Our school is 2 miles away from the river, and we have the "Sabine River Run" the first day of 2 a days (boys and girls). Kid has to make it in a certain amount of time, or that kid must run it again the next day until they make time. We get shirts printed up and everything for them and it's kind of a big deal for them to get the shirt. All we have it for is to try to make sure everybody's trying to stay fit in the summer.
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Post by larrymoe on Apr 23, 2007 17:26:48 GMT -6
I personally have never tested as a coach, but have been tested as a player. As a soph and jr we had to run 4 miles the night before 2 a days began. Utterly stupid idea. Especially for us lineman. My senior year we were tested in the 800. Had to run it in something easy like 6 mins.
In college we did a few different ones- the obvious strength tests- bench, squat, etc and then did different running tests through the years. One year we were timed on the 200. One year it was a 40 yard gasser thing. One year it was the mile.
My experience as a player was that I never trained any harder for them since they were easy enough to obtain without having to work my butt off. The four mile was just ridiculous since I wouldn't ever run 4 miles in an entire game period. I thought the gassers were pretty good. It was down, back, rest for ?? secs and repeat for like 10 times or something. They only timed your 40s and the rest period was always the same time. I thought you could get a good gauge of how much endurance someone had with that drill.
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Post by fbairattack on Apr 23, 2007 18:00:40 GMT -6
I dont call it a test but we run the mile at the begining of two a days. I reward those that make 80% attendance of the summer workouts by letting them "opt" out of the run but stress the fact that we are a TEAM and most of them run it anyway. We will test at the end of the summer program in the lifts, 40, and shuttle run. That is when t-shirts and awards for lifting will occur. I agree with Tom Y though that even if a kid doesnt test out great if he is still my best guy when we start playing football he will play.
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Post by brophy on Apr 23, 2007 18:10:50 GMT -6
I like the idea, but I fail to see how pragmatic it is.
Coaching is about control.
If a kid 'fails' a test when they theoretically peaking (when the season hits), then it isn't the KID that failed - its the coaching staff.
Football "coaching" takes place in the off-season. If these kids aren't attending workouts or are not busting their tails DURING winter / spring weight training -- then where the heck is the coaching staff?!
We hold "strongman" contests each month in the off-season. The top 3 winners of each weight class get a T-shirt, free lunches, new gear, etc....
By the time the season hits - it will be TOO LATE to do anything about an athlete that isn't in shape.
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Post by phantom on Apr 23, 2007 18:14:09 GMT -6
Sorry if I didn't make that clear. We were trying to think of ways to encourage summer workout attendance. One thing we talked about was telling them when we report for fall camp everybody's gonna have to run (this much) in (this much time). So if they come for the summer they will be able to knock it out. Or maybe add or subtract time depending on attendance? I understand what you're trying to do but the questions remain: is it worth the time that's diverted from actually coaching? what are the consequences? |
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Post by touchdowng on Apr 23, 2007 19:17:03 GMT -6
I believe there has to be some type of standard for all players. We don't cut in our sport so there should be something that is measurable and realistic.
First of all let me say that we EXPECT our players to stay in shape year around. We aren't huge into in-season conditioning but we must have a few tests to demonstrate that we are serious about the year 'round expectation.
We do two tests. One is our ENTRANCE 5K. Our entire team runs a 5K. It's more of a fun run really. All I ask of our players is to do their best and improve their time each year. We do this the day before the season begins as our end of off-season. Those that do not participate must run a 10K before they are allowed to play in a game.
We also use this 5K as incentive in our off-season weight room. We place guys into teams, keep track of weekly points for completing workouts. The team with the most points, does not run the 5K.
Our 2nd test is our "Decal Dozen." We run 12 x 110 yard sprints with a 45 second rest. We have standard times for each position. 14 for DB, 15 for LB 16 for DE and 18 for DTs. This IS a big deal and parents come out to watch their boys do these!
For every one of the 12 110's that a player does not beat or meet the maximum time, he must do an extra conditioning session during two-a-days. As long as players do not quit during the "Decal Dozen", we cut their extra conditioning session in half.
I would say 80-90% of our guys make the Dozen on the first attempt. Those that have make ups stick around after practice and run 12 x 50 yard dashes as EC. After all of the EC sessions are finished, They are done.
The GOAL? To get your helmet decals.
By the first game 100% of our kids have their decals and those mean something to them. If they aren't playing hard and we tell them that we will remove their decals, they know we mean business.
We are a school of 1,400 and get 120 boys out for football. If the two tests are a detractor for those wanting to play, we aren't seeing it.
When the season is over, those decals come of their helmets and are displayed on the back windshields of their cars or their parent's cars.
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Post by phantom on Apr 23, 2007 19:39:10 GMT -6
I don't understand why you'd run a 5K and a 10K. Football is an anaerobic activity. Being able to run distances has nothing to do with playing the game.
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Post by coachpoe on Apr 23, 2007 20:10:07 GMT -6
We are planning to test this year. We test at the end of the school year and we will test on the 1st day of football in August. We test in the 40, shuttle, vertical, bench and squat. We mainly do it to 1) see who has been doing what during the summer and 2) to have the kids who are working hard all summer see their work pay off before practice starts. A kid feels a lot of pride when he lowers his 40 or increases his bench by a couple reps. We also do a conditioning test, which is two 350 meter sprints. Nothing too hard. As long as the kids run as hard as they can that is all we ask. If a player doesn't make 80% of his workouts they have extra conditioning till they make it up as well.
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Post by utchuckd on Apr 23, 2007 20:37:22 GMT -6
Totally agree. Definitely something we have to consider.
Talking, prodding, cajoling, bending over backwards to do everything we can for the kids, but some just won't be there the whole time or give it everything they have when they are. What do you do when some of your kids that lay out of workouts or don't show up most of the summer are still some of your best players when you roll them all out on to the field? They can physically be head and shoulders above the others, but there's some trust issues if they won't commit to the team.
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Post by touchdowng on Apr 23, 2007 21:34:41 GMT -6
Phantom
you'll get no disagreement from me about our distance run not being FB specific. But if a young person can't stay in good enough shape year 'round, he is either lazy or apathetic. Neither characteristics make for good football players. But that is just my opinion.
We have our share of 250+ lb kids but they run year around. In all of our PE classes (90 minute periods) our kids run a minimum of 15 minutes daily - sometimes 20-25 minutes.
This doesn't mean we don't do a boatload of anaerobic conditioning. We run the no-huddle and we have to train for it.
The 5K weeds out the wannabees.
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Post by optioncoach on Apr 23, 2007 23:31:15 GMT -6
We prefer the Shuttle test: 6 consecutives 50 yards dashes (shuttle style), 3 minutes of rest, and repeat. We use summer attendance (must attend both running and lifting of 90% of workouts) to give them incentive. If they make 90% they don't have to run the shuttle. The average time should be the same as their 40 time, one decimal place removed. (So, a 5.0 forty should be a 50 sec. shuttle.) I usually give them a margin for error.
Failure to pass means they have to redo (not the same day), but I've only had a few years where that was an issue. Let me be perfectly honest: the test is more of a encouragement to be a part of the summer program. We do it as part of our first Sat. practice (we're helmets only then anyway). I like the idea of using helmet stickers as rewards. We're going to start doing that.
I learned a version of the shuttle from college. Ran 5 consecutive 60 yard dashes, one minute rest, repeat. No margin for error! Those that did not make it had to repeat it every Sat. until they made their time. I would have sold my soul to get out of the shuttle once I knew how bad it sucked.
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Post by pigskin13 on Apr 24, 2007 6:30:29 GMT -6
Couldn't agree with you guys more... Coaching and program building takes place Jan. - July. After that it is time to go play... are my Johnnys and Joes better than yours? Did I do a better job building mine than you did? We have a practice we abide by here:
Everyone has a few studs, and those kids are going to get it done in the weight room and on the field. The real coaching is what happens with the "rest" of them. Who can take the average and slightly above average kids (the bulk of your team) and turn them into PLAYERS?! That is what I love about this game; taking that jug-butt kid, getting him in the squat rack, getting him under the hurdles, teaching him the game, and seeing him work for something and then go succeed at it.
We really push the summer thing at our kids. 90% for attendence award, then you get the T-shirt, choice of equipment / # / locker / plus some conditioning knocked off for a reward during 2-a-days. We also tell our kids if they don't make it, we aren't saying they can't play; but I am not going to reward them with things like Team Captain, post season recognition etc...
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Post by touchdowng on Apr 24, 2007 7:40:37 GMT -6
bottom line for me is that there has to be some type of entrance requirement in my program. It needs to be tough (in the eyes of 15-18 year olds) and something they can feel good about once they have accomplished the goal. There is an quote by Thomas Payne (he wrote "common sense") regarding this notion
THE HARDER THE CONFLICT, THE
MORE GLORIOUS THE TRIUMPH.
WHAT WE ATTAIN TOO CHEAPLY,
WE ESTEEM TOO LIGHTLY;
IT IS ADVERSITY THAT GIVES
EVERYTHING ITS VALUE.
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Post by coachd5085 on Apr 24, 2007 23:56:53 GMT -6
I think conditioning tests are a waste of time. That said, the best test I ever heard of was 40 yard dashes...the kicker being that the player had to complete a certain number (10, 15, 20..soemthing like that) of them within .5 seconds of his top 40 time. (not sure of the rest interval). The downside to that...hammy pulls could be an issue.
As far as the longer distance springs (110's and such), I find those too biased by position. Even though the time limits are lower for skills than bigs...the physiological make up of the skills allows for many more of them simply to "gut them out" regardless of condition level, where as a big could be in the best possible physical condition, and simply not make it. But those skills could never just "gut out" a 40 within .5 of their best time.
Finally, with regards to long distance running.....well, save it for the Corp.
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Post by brophy on Apr 25, 2007 4:52:48 GMT -6
What do you do when some of your kids that lay out of workouts or don't show up most of the summer are still some of your best players when you roll them all out on to the field? They can physically be head and shoulders above the others, but there's some trust issues if they won't commit to the team. if a kid is a physical specimen but isn't a part of the "team" in the off-season........if you are pulling the strings of 'control' like a head coach of a football program, the "positive peer culture" of family and competitiveness will have your own players run turds like this off. If you can't trust a kid to be a part of the team in the off-season, no matter how much of a stud they are physically, you can't trust them on the field (IMO). A liability on the field is an assettin' the bench. These kind of kids will ALWAYS come back to bite you in the butt. Go to WAR with people you can trust, people who will fight it out. Just because a kid goes to workouts doesn't make him trust-worthy. Going to workouts and busting his tail, guys that invest much are the ones who aren't going to fold when things get rough. again, IMO, this all comes down to the culture and environment the head coach and his staff have developed program-wide. If you wait until August to start exerting coaching "control" you've done the kids & the program a disservice. Either you are CONTROLLING the environment or IT is controlling you (by what you tolerate). If we have to test these kids to see where they are at or to ensure they are doing something in the off-season tells ME a few things;
1) We aren't investing any quality time to develop the kids / monitor the kids in the off-season (we are allowing them to be turds with no off-season direction)
2) We are stuck in "old school" mentality of no off-season work ("this is what we've always done" type of thinking)
3)We do not have any faith / belief in off-season conditioning programs like BFS / Husker Power / etc....if you believed in what they can accomplish in developing athletes, you'd have a off-season program designed for your kids and have them going bananas doing it.
4) If the kids can survive 2-week camp - THAT is their rite of passage. Finishing an hour of exertion shouldn't be some glorious sign that they've "made it" physically because it has absolutely no relevance to football.
As I see it, the 'need' to test the kids is a SYMPTOM of a bigger problem |
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Post by tog on Apr 25, 2007 5:47:41 GMT -6
the helmet decal thing--holding helmet decals from people is not kosher in Texas UIL
I remember this as a freshman in high school. We had 3 d1 offensive linemen on our varsity that year. One went to play at A+M, Arkansas, and UTEP. We also had another 300+ lb kid that was not a d1 player. We had a 3 mile run to do in a certain time. I was a fat baby freshman of 220lbs at the time (by the end of freshman year I was 255) and I was soft. I was also out of shape.
Anyhow, I tried to keep up with those senior ol guys and saw the two guys that were more of the prototype athletes (280 solid muscle types) drag the two 300+lb guys around the track for the last 5-6 laps of this. (no one bothered to help drag me around, I was just a lowly freshman) The whole time they were cussin and moanin. "what the heck does this have to do with anything?" etc. "man, I can't make it, I can't make it" kinda talk. Now, this didn't happen, but what if those two big guys had just said "screw it" ? A team that made it to the third round in Texas 5a ball would have probably not even made it to the playoffs. (the team was very centered around being able to ram it down people's throats with that huge OL)
My senior year rolls around and I had to do the same thing. By then I was 310 and pretty solid, and had been running sprints on my own after wt workouts all summmer. I could barely finish the dang thing. (I wasn't last though) But, amazingly enough, I started the whole year, never came out except for 1 series with a jacked up ankle, and played full speed the entire game on offense.
Long story short.....
What does 3 miles have to do with anything football?
Then I went to college and our silly strength coach made the OL all go out and run long distance 3 days a week. I thought then (before knowing much of anything about the science behind building athletes) "what the heck does this have to do with anything football?"
For wr's and secondary that might run a mile or more in a game with all their routes and covering and stuff I can maybe see the point of some long wind things but for the big guys I really see no point other than to maybe lose someone that you could have had out there dominating people.
Just this big old OL guys take on it.
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Post by phantom on Apr 25, 2007 6:18:07 GMT -6
In 1978 Penn State had a great team that was ranked #1 until they lost to Alabama in a clasic Sugar Bowl. Since they had a lot of outstanding players coming back 1979 loked to be a big year. Back then Penn State had a fitness test-either a mile or a 12 minute run. Matt Millen, their captain didn't make the time. If you know anything about Joe Paterno then you know that Joe's doghouse doesn't have many exits. He stripped Millen of his captaincy and demoted him. Team chemistry went to hell and the team finished 8-4. Since then it's seemed to me that testing doesn't really do much good and can do quite a bit of harm.
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Post by brophy on Apr 25, 2007 6:56:31 GMT -6
He stripped Millen of his captaincy and demoted him. Team chemistry went to hell and the team finished 8-4. Since then it's seemed to me that testing doesn't really do much good and can do quite a bit of harm. that explains the Lions drafts the past couple of years..... |
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Post by PSS on Apr 25, 2007 6:59:42 GMT -6
I think conditioning tests are a waste of time. That said, the best test I ever heard of was 40 yard dashes...the kicker being that the player had to complete a certain number (10, 15, 20..soemthing like that) of them within .5 seconds of his top 40 time. (not sure of the rest interval). The downside to that...hammy pulls could be an issue. As far as the longer distance springs (110's and such), I find those too biased by position. Even though the time limits are lower for skills than bigs...the physiological make up of the skills allows for many more of them simply to "gut them out" regardless of condition level, where as a big could be in the best possible physical condition, and simply not make it. But those skills could never just "gut out" a 40 within .5 of their best time. I would have to add the 5-10-5 shuttle run as a good test also. But as far as distance tests go, I see them as being a waste of time. You should hold your athletes accountable for staying in shape year round. That's what summer workouts are for. Those that are not in shape when practice starts will either get in shape or fall to the wayside. You can not expect every body type to fit into a certain mold. That is impossible. It's called genetics.I often look at it the same way as I do conditioning during the season. I've been on staffs where the HC wanted to run qtrs to condition. Never really understood it because when in the world do you ever run a qtr in a game. |
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Post by senatorblutarsky on Apr 25, 2007 7:07:27 GMT -6
We do a 12 minute run. They have to finish so many laps in 12 min (DB 9, LB 8, DL 7). Every consecutive day they do it they can do 1/2 lap less.
If they are at conditioning over 80% of the time in the summer, they can opt out. I want them to opt out. I want them at conditioning. We have not had anyone do the 12 min. run since 1997.
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Post by utchuckd on Apr 25, 2007 18:30:25 GMT -6
This is the culture we're trying to figure out how to instill here.
Agree totally.
We're not waiting til August to exert control. We're trying to use this as a way to say hey, in 4 months you've got to do this, so you need to be here getting ready for it.
But we do spend the time and do believe in the development programs. What we're trying to do is find a way to get everybody to come and take advantage of what we can do for them and the team.
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