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Post by tim914790 on Apr 3, 2008 10:15:31 GMT -6
Coaches,
We are right smack in the middle of our spring weight lifting and conditioning. We do not have spring ball here. I have 15-20 returning players that are not in a sport but are skipping work outs and or have horrible attitudes in school including in my class. I want to have an "intervention" with just the 15-20 kids and basically call them out on what they are doing. We have a losing tradition at this school and going into my 2nd year as HC I want to put a stop to it. My thought is to basically say to them, you guys cry and get upset after we lose and wonder why us? But the answer is right in front of you, you cut corners so you end up coming up short in the long run. I basically want to give them a get on board or get the hell out speech because i feel they are holding people back that may be considering playing for the first time but see returners not working out, why should they? Let me know any thoughts you may have on this or better ideas to get the same thing accomplished.
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Post by williamcrehan on Apr 3, 2008 10:21:14 GMT -6
I am in my third year (first year 2-7, second year 6-3)... 2 things here though. I started weight lift testing and posting it in the phys ed locker room, weight room, and football locker room. I think that has helped, but I will really see if it has in a few years. Not sure if there is a correlation here though because I had good athletes last year. But posting that did have some prides dented and they started coming to lift.
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Post by tim914790 on Apr 3, 2008 10:27:37 GMT -6
I hear ya, I have already purchased a top 10 board and we post it in the hallway outside of the gym for the whole student body to see. It seems with some kids they just would rather be lazy. I will be cutting this year which will put me through some long conferences on why a returning starter got cut.
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Post by ajreaper on Apr 3, 2008 11:22:43 GMT -6
I use a point system. They earn points for showing up to lift, for attending camps or combines, getting good grades, meeting fund raising goals, participating in community service projects, etc. They can lose points for getting detention or suspensions etc. In order to dress and play you must aquire 85% of the total earned by the top guy. If you don't have that you have make ups sessions until you do.
I tell them you don't have to be the lead dog but you better be sniffing his behind because the pace is going to get set by the Alpha dogs not the lazy b.tches so keep up, step up or be gone it's just that simple. The standard will be set by the leaders of the pack period.
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Post by spartan74 on Apr 3, 2008 11:30:09 GMT -6
I am also in the same situation 2nd year at a school that does not really have a strong football tradation.
we implemented a LIFT program which is leadership in football training. we created 3 teams lead by the seniors. each senior group was assigned a list of underclassmen. they then received points for every member that attended workouts. they also got points for how much their maxes went up and for their grades. The seniors then would get on the other players for not being there. the results have been great. the best attendance we have had, great strength gains. they did not want to let their teams down.
we still had some players who still would not come, but i have a feeling once the season comes around they will either not be there or the other players that were there will let them know they should have been there by taking their place.
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Post by carookie on Apr 3, 2008 12:44:38 GMT -6
dcohio; I'm with you %1000 on this.
Ive been in the same situation as an assistant....tim91, I just hope your admin will give you the time and support as you break this egg to make the omlet.
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Post by tim914790 on Apr 3, 2008 12:46:30 GMT -6
Thanks coach you and i think very similar. One question for you, did you cut the kids who were slygs or just not play them? One concern when I cut the is the back lash (which I can handle) but also keeping them on the time leaves the potential for them becoming a cancer.
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Post by silkyice on Apr 3, 2008 12:54:12 GMT -6
DC,
Awesome post! I got a new job in the middle of July. We started with 92 - finished with 51. We won 4 of the last 6 ball games.
The weightroom has been great.
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Post by tim914790 on Apr 3, 2008 16:40:05 GMT -6
Keep the ideas coming. I still would like to know did you cut the guys or did you just let them ride the pine? Obviouly I cannot cut them now but just make sure there evaluation during 2 a days reflects not up to standard skill.
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Post by phantom on Apr 3, 2008 16:57:20 GMT -6
My answer will not be popular but it's what I did. . It's popular with me.
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Post by phantom on Apr 3, 2008 16:59:51 GMT -6
Keep the ideas coming. I still would like to know did you cut the guys or did you just let them ride the pine? Obviouly I cannot cut them now but just make sure there evaluation during 2 a days reflects not up to standard skill. A lot of that depends on your state association rules. If you can't make off-season workouts mandatory you shouldn't cut them. Also, give your AD a heads-up on your plans.
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Post by tim914790 on Apr 3, 2008 17:30:57 GMT -6
So do you think just burying them on the depth chart is enough? Im concerned they could become a cancer but then I guess I would have grounds for dismissal. Has anyone tried a meeting with the lazy ones now in the spring to try to rattle the cage and at the same time give them a heads up and last chance to get on board.
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Post by phantom on Apr 3, 2008 17:35:31 GMT -6
So do you think just burying them on the depth chart is enough? Im concerned they could become a cancer but then I guess I would have grounds for dismissal. Has anyone tried a meeting with the lazy ones now in the spring to try to rattle the cage and at the same time give them a heads up and last chance to get on board. Definitely have a meeting. A one-on-one would be best. Who know? Some may get it and become team leaders. If you keep them and they become team cancers-see ya.
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Post by seagull73 on Apr 4, 2008 14:03:18 GMT -6
Let them know if they don't show up for off-season you don't see things working out for them in the fall. I have to put it that way because I can't make it mandatory by state rule. I cut the best d-lineman in the county last year along with 2 projected starters for lack of dedication (I made up different reasons officially, not a team player, didn't learn schemes etc). I also have the luxury of 200 kids trying out for football.
I thought everyone would get the point after last year but I still have guys missing for workouts this year!
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Post by carson101 on Apr 4, 2008 14:22:11 GMT -6
Hold a players combine those that can't measure up put them on notice, those that perform above all start'em my 2 cents
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Post by phantom on Apr 4, 2008 14:48:20 GMT -6
Let them know if they don't show up for off-season you don't see things working out for them in the fall. I have to put it that way because I can't make it mandatory by state rule. I cut the best d-lineman in the county last year along with 2 projected starters for lack of dedication (I made up different reasons officially, not a team player, didn't learn schemes etc). I also have the luxury of 200 kids trying out for football. I thought everyone would get the point after last year but I still have guys missing for workouts this year! Stuff like this can be tricky. Cut the best DL in the county? The idea is to win and good players make it easier to win. Players will have varying levels of dedication. The point is to win games. I don't know what your situation is. Maybe you've taken over a bad team that was still going to be bad, with him or without him, and you needed to make a point for the future. Good idea. Maybe you were pretty good and had enough players that you didn't need him. Unless you're in a total rebuilding situation I believe that you're doing a disservice to the team if you don't play your best players.
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Post by seagull73 on Apr 4, 2008 18:28:59 GMT -6
My d-lineman's character was more the issue than his dedication but both sucked!
If you don't stop the cycle how will it get better. We went 8-2 the past 2 years (regular season). We work hard enough to go 8-2 every year & are working hard enough to go 8-2 again. We are thought of as being a successful program but we have the talent to do better but not the work ethic. I think we are a victim of our own success. I'm not singing the blues because I know there are programs struggling to win 2-3 games a year but losing in the 1st or 2nd round of the playoffs isn't good enough anymore.
If we don't work harder we can't take the next step. If you don't want to take the next step, step out of the way.
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Post by tothehouse on Apr 4, 2008 18:50:28 GMT -6
Give them the Circle speech. What is the Circle speech. You draw a circle on the white board. You then write down all of the distractions and other b**l$hit stuff that is going on outside the circle. You talk about them with the players. Let them say some of the stuff on the outside of the circle. Then YOU write some of the positive things (or all of them) inside the circle.
Explain to them that the circle is a target and that they are hitting everything outside the circle. Then say, "wouldn't you like to be inside the circle?".
Explain what it takes to enter the circle. You have to "aim" high for your goals. "Shoot" for your goals and desires. Their "target" date is to become league champions, etc.
Who wants to get inside the circle? If you can't do A, B, and C then you're on the outside of the circle and we are only going to deal with guys who want to be inside the circle.
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Post by tim914790 on Apr 4, 2008 20:20:07 GMT -6
I would not say anyof these guys are all countytype players maybe one is but the rest are guys that think they are good enough. My schedule may be tough but I think I can out coach 2 guys a year to be 2-8 with suspect talent rather then be 208 and say if only johnny could play to what he showed us in practice against the 3rd scout team. Our whole school has the attitude of, "Im the best on in my PE class" so I dont need to work hard. Very frustrating but great to hear others are going through it and have taken the tough stance and it has worked out.
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Post by tim914790 on Apr 4, 2008 20:21:26 GMT -6
I will let you guy sknow how things go after my intervention in 2 weeks and then again in august/se[tember when the "studs" are collectign splinters
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chuff
Sophomore Member
Posts: 136
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Post by chuff on Apr 4, 2008 23:01:33 GMT -6
I've had a similar situation. I took over a program in mid July that had been so-so lately, but has not had a winning tradition. In that first year we got run over. We were both physically and mentally weak. Had only a handful of players who could rep 185 more than once, and almost half the team could not do it even one time.
During the off season last year I told the team that I've lost with the "studs" and I could lose just as well without the "studs" who don't lift. If you wanted to play Varsity, then you will have to be at 80% of the workouts, and oh by the way, we are going to work out at 6:00 in the morning during school and 8:00 am during summer. Nothing is going on then so there is no excuse not to be there.
Needless to say, many of the less committed players didn't bother showing up. I told these players that they would have to start the season on the JV team until they could prove they they were physically able to perform at the varsity level. This gave me an "out" since the "studs" WERE pretty good athletes. They would play their way back onto varsity sooner or later but my point would be made.
Before I go on I should tell you how I justified this to the parents. I have always told parents that I will not put their sons in a position to fail. Part of that promise is protecting them from injury. We had an unusual amount of injuries in my first season, many serious, and probably a big reason that we only won one game. If I am to keep my promise, their sons would have to be strong enough to be competitive.
Many players bought into it, which made me very excited. We had great turn out and we got A LOT stronger as a team. I thought we were on the right track and that we were going to turn this thing around... BUT...
Of course some of the "studs" wanted to play after skipping the entire summer. I re-emphasized the rules to them and their parents. The parents did not take "no" for an answer and did everything they could to go over my head- the AD, the principal, the school board, and the state association.
Now, I have to be honest, yes, according to association rules I could not make summer workouts a criteria for team selection. I was taking advantage of a grey area. I think that rule had more to do with making cuts rather than where an athlete starts the season, but many did not see it that way!
So "stud" comes out for the team three days after 2 a days start. He promises to do anything I ask. A win for me! There are no attitude problems from him the rest of the season, and he turns out to be an outstanding player. But here is my problem: the kid who played in front of him, who was the real deal, all of the sudden is MIA- no where to be found. This left a huge hole to fill, and yes, many of the other players had gotten better, but still are not the same caliber athlete as "stud" So "stud" quickly earns the starting job by attrition. (The starter turned out to be in a mental hospital!)
"stud" plays so well last season that he earns himself a college scholarship. Unfortunately, we as a team still are not successful in the wins and losses column (apples to oranges- we lost three teams from our schedule the year before who won a combined three games between them. In the meantime we gained two playoff teams in their spot this season!).
I have tried my best to sell the kids on the fact that we were far more competitive this last season, that we played better competition, and sustained fewer injuries. I still have a good core who are busting their butts, but I now feel that I have a credibility problem with some of the kids who aren't mature enough to realize that "stud" was just a superior athlete from the start: "We lifted weights all season and "stud" didn't. We only won one more game than last year and "stud" got a college scholarship..." My message was made clear to "stud," but some of the lesser athletes resented him (and me, I think)
In retrospect, I still believe I did the right thing. But we have not had as good of turn out in the weightroom this off season. I still keep track of %, although I have backed off the JV criteria after last year's experience. We do a lot more carrots than sticks this off season. One of those carrots is a starting spot (rather than a spot on varsity).
Sorry for the long post, but hopefully some can find my story helpful, whether it is an idea to try or what NOT to do!
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Post by dal9000 on Apr 5, 2008 0:48:27 GMT -6
But here is my problem: the kid who played in front of him, who was the real deal, all of the sudden is MIA- no where to be found. (The starter turned out to be in a mental hospital!) Yikes! How come you weren't notified about that sooner? And has the kid turned out OK? I ask because it takes a LOT to land you in a psych ward as a long-term patient, so -- yeah. That can't be good.
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chuff
Sophomore Member
Posts: 136
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Post by chuff on Apr 5, 2008 7:54:36 GMT -6
The kid was having some troubles with his folks- had moved in with girlfriend, etc. Next thing you know, he comes to me after missing practice for the first time and says that he was caught stealing food from a grocery store. Says that it was a wake up call and that he will be moving back in with his folks and wouldn't miss any more practices because sports keeps him out of trouble. Didn't see him again for over a month. Parents and councelors filled me in about the hospitalization. Apparently he is OK now. His is back in school and just signed a letter of intent for track.
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Post by tim914790 on Apr 5, 2008 8:41:37 GMT -6
See I think if you sit the studs that dont lift which in all honesty we are only talking about 1 or 2 kids anyway, it is going to lay the ground work for down the road. If you waiver and say well now that summer is over you can play if you do this then the kids will just know in the next years to just skip workouts because eventually they will be starting, they will take the attitude of coach needs me more then I need him. I would rather sacrafice one year and lose with the right mindset kids so that in the future the studs only know one way of doing things and that is through hard work.
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Post by kurtbryan on Apr 5, 2008 11:54:53 GMT -6
As a coach, you have to keep the rules the same for the studs and duds...otherwise the program slacks off and gets hurt.
KB
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Post by spos21ram on Apr 5, 2008 12:00:41 GMT -6
Most places cannot make off-season activities mandatory. What happens when a few of the players that were skipping these workouts come out to camp and dominate throughout Doubles? What would you guys do? Would you still bury them on the depth chart?
This is a serious question and a very realistic scenario.
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Post by justryn2 on Apr 5, 2008 14:05:54 GMT -6
Here's my two cents worth. First, it sounds like you took over a program without much pride or much history. Are you certain that these players understand you're expectations? Make it very clear to them what you expect of starters and team leaders.
If you're sure they know what you expect and they still do not respond, maybe they just aren't buying in to you're program. At that point, you either deal with that or bench these guys and look for players that do share your dedication and objectives.
Basically, my advice is to first make sure you've done everything you can do to clarify your expectations and then, if one or two good athletes fail to meet your expectations, use 'em on your practice squad and let 'em ride the pine on game day.
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Post by coachcb on Apr 5, 2008 14:54:09 GMT -6
Here is how I would try and deal with it. Bear in mind that you will have to get the administration on board before you even attempt to install this. If the admin won't back you, you'll look like an idiot.
1. Point system- each day of lifting is worth 1 point, each day of another sport practice is worth a point. If they lift and go to another sport's practice, they get 2 points for that day. Before, class, and after school weight training all count. You'll also have to include the summer sports; so plan on keeping track of the Legion baseball
2. They have to get 75% of the points during the year AND 75% of the points during the summer in order to start and to letter. You only count 1 point a day, but the kids can double up by lifting and playing another sport. You have to have the dual system so that the kids can't load up on points during the school year and then slack off in the summer. Now you're basically only asking for a C+ effort from them at 75%. If they can't put in that amount of effort, than they don't deserve to start anyway. Also, I would set up some kind of SERIOUS reward for the kid that puts in the most points; a trophy or a plaque. Something nice, not gimmicky.
3 things will happen; the kids that don't want to work will cry about it not being fair and then they will quit. The kids that are on the fence will either get on board, or they will quit. The kids that truly want to work, will be rewarded for their hard work.
Now because you have set rewards as starting and lettering, you're not technically doing anything wrong. You're not cutting kids and every body has the same chance to play, but they have to earn the starting spot. Because of this, the cancerous kids will weed themselves out on their own.
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bigcroz
Junior Member
Go STAGS!!
Posts: 356
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Post by bigcroz on Apr 5, 2008 15:12:10 GMT -6
We had this problem, so 2 years ago when i became HC, I passed out the summer workout schedule as well as the schedule for the first week of camp in May when I was given the job. We spend the first full week of practice in "camp" at the school. The kids eat, sleep, football for 5 days no girlfriends, cell phones, etc.. Three practices per day, 3 meetings, Then after the last practice there is a MANDATORY 1 hour conditioning period. We can not make summer workouts mandatory, so I keep track of attendance and anyone who makes 80% of the summer workouts, 7 on 7 lineman challenge etc, gets REWARDED by being excused from the conditioning period. The kids figured out on their own that they did not want to be at that conditioning period after 3 practices in the hot sun that also included conditioning. Only had about 10 out of 25 in that conditioning period the first year, last year had 2 kids out of 48. They police themselves if you give them the guidelines and then stick to them. No special treatment for the studs or the duds will quit on you later, when you NEED them! IMO
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Post by mwpilots on Apr 6, 2008 15:07:18 GMT -6
Here's My thought:
"Look son either you are In or you are Out! We are going to win with you or without you. I would love to have you as a part of this team, but we can go on if you are not there and I don't have a problem with that. You are either a part of the problem or part of the solution and I don't have problems on this team. So you have a decision to make. I expect to see you in the weight room tomorrow, but if I don't then I will know what your decision is."
Say this and leave it there.Look him dead in his eye so that he knows you mean every word of that. If he does not show the next day then forget him.(and that's not what I really want to say)
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