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Post by wildcat on Nov 3, 2007 10:03:32 GMT -6
OK fellas...here's my situation:
Offensive coordinator at a 5A school in Illinois (fifth largest classification in the state). We went 4-5 this year. Offensively, we averaged 25 points a game and well over 300 yards of offense a game. This year, our QB threw for over 1000 yards and 12 TDs (led the conference in passing) and had a 3-to-1 TD-to-INT ratio. He was only a junior this year. We also return a kid who had almost 1000 total yards (about 500 receiving and 450 rushing) and 15 TDs and was named the Conference Offensive MVP. We are the 3rd smallest school in the conference. Other teams are mostly 6A and 7A.
Our head coach is an old-school guy who believes in smashmouth football. We are a base Wing-T team (buck, belly, and double dive) but it became apparent during the course of the year that we were simply too weak, small, and slow upfront to be an effective Wing T team. The most noise we made on offense this past season came when we went to the gun (2x2 and 3x1) and ran and threw the ball. We could not effectively run the ball out of the Wing T against the better teams in the league.
My dilemma is that our HC is determined for us to be a smashmouth team even though we don't have smashmouth kids (lots of reasons for this that are not really important to the discussion). Our QB has a big arm but he is slowfooted and his ball handling skills are average at best. We do not have a big, strong TE, our best RBs are each about 160 pounds, and the kid we want to play FB next year is a load but he couldn't play this season due to being academically ineligible. Lastly, our offensive line will be small, weak, and slow next year. We had 3 decent athletes on the OL this season and really couldn't run the ball consistently but next year, our OL will actually be even less athletic.
I love coaching here, but I really don't think that I can be the O/C next year if we stick with the Wing T. What I am thinking about doing is telling the HC that he needs to take over the offense next year or he needs to go out and find a good Wing-T OC who knows the system up and down and believes in it. I want to keep coaching here. I am willing to accept a reduced role (OL coach, special teams coordinator, etc, etc).
Sorry this is so long. Would appreciate any input.
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Post by airraider on Nov 3, 2007 10:24:10 GMT -6
Compromise coach.. That Shotgun Wing-t is really interesting!
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Post by coachcb on Nov 3, 2007 10:28:38 GMT -6
Honestly, I think that's the best approach at this point wildcat. You can't be an OC or a DC and not believe in the system that you run.
However; if you plead your case right, I'm willing to bet he'll at least come to a compromise with you.
If anything, think about throwing the ball out of the Wing T sets a little more often and keep the SG stuff as a part of the package. I know there's a lot of people that think you need to establish the run before you can effectively throw PA, but I'm not one of them. PA out of the Wing T can be ridiculously effective; the misdirection factor really adds to it.
I love PA boots and other PA schemes off Wing T series. If I have the ability to run the jet and rocket series, almost half of my play calls will be PA off of those looks.
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Post by dblwngr on Nov 3, 2007 10:34:14 GMT -6
I was always under the impression that the Wing-T was a good offense for a less talented team, especially on the oline. Seems like all the double teams and misdirection would be to your advantage.
You mentioned your oline will be less athletic next season. I just keep invisioning your un-athletic oline getting blitzed to death in the spread. But on the other hand, if you can run the ball effectively out of it that would definitely help matters. I like the idea of getting the ball to your best players in space as well.
I do know this....One of the Wing-T teams in our league added the "Rocket sweep" to their offense and that play has given many teams fits all year! Definitely much scarier than the buck sweep in my opinion.
Good luck with your situation coach, let us know how things turn out.
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Post by fbdoc on Nov 3, 2007 10:46:49 GMT -6
Sit down with the HC and share your heart. You should also pour several beers as you point out the plus and minus of both schemes and how they work with your kids. Let him know you want to coach with and for him, but also let him hear WHY you feel frustrated. Get it out in the open.
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Post by coachcb on Nov 3, 2007 13:13:26 GMT -6
I was always under the impression that the Wing-T was a good offense for a less talented team, especially on the oline. Seems like all the double teams and misdirection would be to your advantage. You mentioned your oline will be less athletic next season. I just keep invisioning your un-athletic oline getting blitzed to death in the spread. But on the other hand, if you can run the ball effectively out of it that would definitely help matters. I like the idea of getting the ball to your best players in space as well. I do know this....One of the Wing-T teams in our league added the "Rocket sweep" to their offense and that play has given many teams fits all year! Definitely much scarier than the buck sweep in my opinion. Good luck with your situation coach, let us know how things turn out. The Wing T works best with undersized offensive lines that can move. If they can't pull to trap or lead; you're SOL with this system. As wildcat said; his OL is going to be small, weak and slow; the Wing T isn't going to help out much there. |
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Post by phantom on Nov 3, 2007 15:00:23 GMT -6
OK fellas...here's my situation: Offensive coordinator at a 5A school in Illinois (fifth largest classification in the state). We went 4-5 this year. Offensively, we averaged 25 points a game and well over 300 yards of offense a game. This year, our QB threw for over 1000 yards and 12 TDs (led the conference in passing) and had a 3-to-1 TD-to-INT ratio. He was only a junior this year. We also return a kid who had almost 1000 total yards (about 500 receiving and 450 rushing) and 15 TDs and was named the Conference Offensive MVP. We are the 3rd smallest school in the conference. Other teams are mostly 6A and 7A. Our head coach is an old-school guy who believes in smashmouth football. We are a base Wing-T team (buck, belly, and double dive) but it became apparent during the course of the year that we were simply too weak, small, and slow upfront to be an effective Wing T team. The most noise we made on offense this past season came when we went to the gun (2x2 and 3x1) and ran and threw the ball. We could not effectively run the ball out of the Wing T against the better teams in the league. My dilemma is that our HC is determined for us to be a smashmouth team even though we don't have smashmouth kids (lots of reasons for this that are not really important to the discussion). Our QB has a big arm but he is slowfooted and his ball handling skills are average at best. We do not have a big, strong TE, our best RBs are each about 160 pounds, and the kid we want to play FB next year is a load but he couldn't play this season due to being academically ineligible. Lastly, our offensive line will be small, weak, and slow next year. We had 3 decent athletes on the OL this season and really couldn't run the ball consistently but next year, our OL will actually be even less athletic. I love coaching here, but I really don't think that I can be the O/C next year if we stick with the Wing T. What I am thinking about doing is telling the HC that he needs to take over the offense next year or he needs to go out and find a good Wing-T OC who knows the system up and down and believes in it. I want to keep coaching here. I am willing to accept a reduced role (OL coach, special teams coordinator, etc, etc). Sorry this is so long. Would appreciate any input. I've never considered the Wing T to be "smashmouth". We don't run it (We run the I. We're smashmouth.) but I have read Tubby's book. He doesn't consider it smashmouth. To him, the system is about misdirection, blocking angles, and conflicted defenders. If the HC considers it smashmouth, he's not running true Wing T. He's running the I from a Wing T formation. |
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Post by kcbazooka on Nov 3, 2007 15:08:46 GMT -6
Pretzel -- let me know if your HC decides he wants an experienced winged-t man!?!?!?
I understand your concerns but also would view it as a chance for you to continue to learn the game. The winged-t, especially with the shotgun addition can be as wide open as any offense.
Personally, I wouldn't offer to give up the OC - you may never get it back - I don't know if you wish to continue as a coach or have aspirations of being a head coach but I would stick with it.
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Post by wildcat on Nov 3, 2007 18:57:14 GMT -6
Compromise coach.. That Shotgun Wing-t is really interesting! airraider - You are speaking my language...I have the DVDs from Grinnell College and the Lew Johnson videos...love it! Not sure if the HC will bite, but that is definitely one of my "bullets" I am saving for our staff meeting next week. |
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Post by wildcat on Nov 3, 2007 19:00:39 GMT -6
Honestly, I think that's the best approach at this point wildcat. You can't be an OC or a DC and not believe in the system that you run. However; if you plead your case right, I'm willing to bet he'll at least come to a compromise with you. If anything, think about throwing the ball out of the Wing T sets a little more often and keep the SG stuff as a part of the package. I know there's a lot of people that think you need to establish the run before you can effectively throw PA, but I'm not one of them. PA out of the Wing T can be ridiculously effective; the misdirection factor really adds to it. I love PA boots and other PA schemes off Wing T series. If I have the ability to run the jet and rocket series, almost half of my play calls will be PA off of those looks. Play action was pretty good to us this year...our two best plays out of the Wing-T were belly pass and buck boot...actually did a pretty good job of running those. Problem was, we just couldn't consistently run the ball out of Wing T formations against the good teams in the league. Those teams just stacked 8 guys in the box and simply outmuscled us. |
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Post by dubber on Nov 3, 2007 19:03:14 GMT -6
Compromise coach.. That Shotgun Wing-t is really interesting! airraider - You are speaking my language...I have the DVDs from Grinnell College and the Lew Johnson videos...love it! Not sure if the HC will bite, but that is definitely one of my "bullets" I am saving for our staff meeting next week. I'd try to set up a one-on-one meeting before the staff meeting just you and him, air everything out there about what you think (include shotgun wing-t proposal) that way, he doesn't feel "called out" or unprepared to examine your proposal during the meeting-------clue him in on what you are thinking about, I think that will go a long way |
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Post by wildcat on Nov 3, 2007 19:08:49 GMT -6
I was always under the impression that the Wing-T was a good offense for a less talented team, especially on the oline. Seems like all the double teams and misdirection would be to your advantage. You mentioned your oline will be less athletic next season. I just keep invisioning your un-athletic oline getting blitzed to death in the spread. But on the other hand, if you can run the ball effectively out of it that would definitely help matters. I like the idea of getting the ball to your best players in space as well. I do know this....One of the Wing-T teams in our league added the "Rocket sweep" to their offense and that play has given many teams fits all year! Definitely much scarier than the buck sweep in my opinion. Good luck with your situation coach, let us know how things turn out. We never did get the buck sweep going this year...we didn't downblock very well and allowed too much penetration at the POA and our OGs were simply too slow to get out in front of the play. Had a little more success with the rocket sweep, but the good teams in the league were able to force us back in to the pursuit or ran us to the sideline. The thing is, our pass protection was actually halfway decent this year. Our O-linemen were much better pass blockers than run blockers. |
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Post by wildcat on Nov 3, 2007 19:10:04 GMT -6
Sit down with the HC and share your heart. You should also pour several beers as you point out the plus and minus of both schemes and how they work with your kids. Let him know you want to coach with and for him, but also let him hear WHY you feel frustrated. Get it out in the open. doc - Good advice...I think that this is the route I will take. |
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trojan
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Post by trojan on Nov 3, 2007 19:14:23 GMT -6
I have to agree with the fella that said that if you give up the OC position, you might not get it back.
WHat about double dive for your 160 lb backs?
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Post by wildcat on Nov 3, 2007 19:15:35 GMT -6
I've never considered the Wing T to be "smashmouth". We don't run it (We run the I. We're smashmouth.) but I have read Tubby's book. He doesn't consider it smashmouth. To him, the system is about misdirection, blocking angles, and conflicted defenders. If the HC considers it smashmouth, he's not running true Wing T. He's running the I from a Wing T formation. Funny thing is, I always thought the same way. The last school I coached at, we played a lot of Wing T teams and it was always pulling offensive linemen, great backfield fakes, counters, and misdirection. With the exception of our Buck series, we really don't do much of that. |
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trojan
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Post by trojan on Nov 3, 2007 19:15:38 GMT -6
My point, which I didn't make, was that you could keep your HC's Wing-T, but add a wrinkle that might fit your personnel.
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Post by wildcat on Nov 3, 2007 19:16:57 GMT -6
airraider - You are speaking my language...I have the DVDs from Grinnell College and the Lew Johnson videos...love it! Not sure if the HC will bite, but that is definitely one of my "bullets" I am saving for our staff meeting next week. I'd try to set up a one-on-one meeting before the staff meeting just you and him, air everything out there about what you think (include shotgun wing-t proposal) that way, he doesn't feel "called out" or unprepared to examine your proposal during the meeting-------clue him in on what you are thinking about, I think that will go a long way That's a good point...not really fair to "ambush" the HC... |
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Post by wildcat on Nov 3, 2007 19:19:43 GMT -6
I have to agree with the fella that said that if you give up the OC position, you might not get it back. WHat about double dive for your 160 lb backs? We do run double dive as one of our Wing T series. We call it our Drive series. Basically run like Belly series just without the QB reversing out. Against the bottom 4 teams in the league, we ran Drive and Belly pretty well. The problem was that the better schools in the conference just blew it up. We just weren't big, strong, or tough enough up front to run it. |
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Post by wildcat on Nov 3, 2007 19:28:37 GMT -6
My point, which I didn't make, was that you could keep your HC's Wing-T, but add a wrinkle that might fit your personnel. This is basically what we did this year. The problem was that our offensive practices were geared toward running the Wing T series and not toward running a shotgun spread offense. So, we didn't work pass protection every day. We didn't work hot reads every day. We didn't work our 2-minute no-huddle every day. We spent 90% of our time working on Wing-T series that had little to no chance of success against the top 4 or 5 teams in the league. One thing that I should add is that most of the teams in our league run the Wing T so it is not like we are presenting them with an offense that they are not familar with. The good teams that don't run the Wing T run the I or the Bone so they are used to physical running games. So, we are basically trying to run an offense that the top teams in the league already run but with much better athletes and much better coaching. I guess what it comes down to is that I just don't believe in this offense under these conditions. And I don't think that I will be able to get over my bias against the offense. So, I think that the best thing to do would be to have a 1 on 1 sit-down with the HC and let him know what I am thinking. Like I said, he is a great guy and will listen to me. He might not like what I say, but he will seriously consider it. |
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Post by tog on Nov 3, 2007 19:32:35 GMT -6
come to texas with me
lol
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Post by silkyice on Nov 3, 2007 21:02:44 GMT -6
My point, which I didn't make, was that you could keep your HC's Wing-T, but add a wrinkle that might fit your personnel. This is basically what we did this year. The problem was that our offensive practices were geared toward running the Wing T series and not toward running a shotgun spread offense. So, we didn't work pass protection every day. We didn't work hot reads every day. We didn't work our 2-minute no-huddle every day. We spent 90% of our time working on Wing-T series that had little to no chance of success against the top 4 or 5 teams in the league. One thing that I should add is that most of the teams in our league run the Wing T so it is not like we are presenting them with an offense that they are not familar with. The good teams that don't run the Wing T run the I or the Bone so they are used to physical running games. So, we are basically trying to run an offense that the top teams in the league already run but with much better athletes and much better coaching. I guess what it comes down to is that I just don't believe in this offense under these conditions. And I don't think that I will be able to get over my bias against the offense. So, I think that the best thing to do would be to have a 1 on 1 sit-down with the HC and let him know what I am thinking. Like I said, he is a great guy and will listen to me. He might not like what I say, but he will seriously consider it. Now that I have all the info: I agree, you need to get out of the wing-t. I have been both wing-t and spread. This year I got a job at a school on July 15. We went wing-tand stayed wing left all year. We only got outgained in one game this whole year (to a team that played for state championship last year) and we couldn't throw very well. Knowing that other teams in your league run the wing t and you are trying to smashmouth it, and you don't really like it for your team, you have to try and get your coach to get out of it or at least run it a little differently (more misdirection, passing, and/or gun). |
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Post by tog on Nov 3, 2007 21:20:12 GMT -6
chris
I have been there and done that
moved to a new place
running what I and the hc envisioned when we got together about the offense
30 pts a game
300 yards a game
about 185 running
and 120ish passing from our modular spread
and we will be much much better this next year
basically
either move
or
convince the guy
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Post by coachorr on Nov 4, 2007 1:36:07 GMT -6
Wildcat, Thank you for your comments, very well said and I understand where you are coming from.
Might I suggest something to you that you and the head coach and TOG will be able to digest? How about the Wing T and the Pistol. See, you can run the football and not have to be dedicated to smashmouth but do it in a way that you might be a little more finesse.
Might I also add. Many teams who are wing t add the following to their scheme to keep teams off balance:
Double Tight Full house (like the Barta Bone and the Inverted bone) Execute the trapping game
Veer
Jet and Fly sweep with GUT, trap, Ice Pass, dive sally, truck, XX, Reverse, and reverse fake.
Sally
Rocket combined with Lazer
Misdirection Power (See old Air Force video)
Midline
Speed option
Double Tight Double Wing
Also, might I add, that your Backs and QB may be not fundamentally sound. Here are some questions to ask yourself.
Are the Qb's turning their backs to the defense and pulling the football into their belly?
Are the Qb's handing the ball off with 2 hands, as if they were dealing cards?
Are the RB's cocking and rolling, grabbing Jersey, and changing speed and direction/
Does the QB carry out his fake?
I would bet that the devil is residing in the details.
If it were me, I would go coach with TOG, that would be the opportunity of a lifetime.
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Post by coachorr on Nov 4, 2007 1:38:42 GMT -6
The only difference between the Shotgun Spread and the Wing T are: The formations, the snap, and the plays. You can be one in the same if you want. I do doubt that you will ever change the HC's mind, time to move on. He will never change and his stubbornness will result in your lack of success.
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Post by wildcat on Nov 4, 2007 5:29:41 GMT -6
Wildcat, Thank you for your comments, very well said and I understand where you are coming from. Might I suggest something to you that you and the head coach and TOG will be able to digest? How about the Wing T and the Pistol. See, you can run the football and not have to be dedicated to smashmouth but do it in a way that you might be a little more finesse. Might I also add. Many teams who are wing t add the following to their scheme to keep teams off balance: Double Tight Full house (like the Barta Bone and the Inverted bone) Execute the trapping game Veer Jet and Fly sweep with GUT, trap, Ice Pass, dive sally, truck, XX, Reverse, and reverse fake. Sally Rocket combined with Lazer Misdirection Power (See old Air Force video) Midline Speed option Double Tight Double Wing Also, might I add, that your Backs and QB may be not fundamentally sound. Here are some questions to ask yourself. Are the Qb's turning their backs to the defense and pulling the football into their belly? Are the Qb's handing the ball off with 2 hands, as if they were dealing cards? Are the RB's cocking and rolling, grabbing Jersey, and changing speed and direction/ Does the QB carry out his fake? I would bet that the devil is residing in the details. If it were me, I would go coach with TOG, that would be the opportunity of a lifetime. coachorr - Great points! I could not agree with you more. I am the first one tyo admit that I am a poor Wing-T coach. This last season was crazy...I came on board the staff as an unpaid volunteer assistant (was going to be the TEs coach) back in March and due to a confluence of events, I ended up being the OC. We were NOT a good Wing-T team this season...QB's ball handling was poor, backfield action wasn't very convincing...I firmly believe that if we had an OC who knew the Wing-T and all of the intricities and details of the offense, we would have won 1 more game, finished 5-4, and made the playoffs. The fact of the matter is that I just didn't know the offense well enough to effectively coordinate it. So, I am NOT passing the buck...there are MANY things I wish I did differently this season. All of your suggestions are things that would definitely make us more competitive. |
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Post by coachcalande on Nov 4, 2007 7:37:11 GMT -6
1 way to be a good assistant is to remember that its not about you- just coach em up the best you can in the vision the hc has set, talk in meetings about ideas and suggestions you have, understanding that he may or may not use your ideas.
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Post by wildcat on Nov 4, 2007 7:38:15 GMT -6
Offensive coordinator...Offensively, we averaged 25 points a game and well over 300 yards of offense a game. This year, our QB threw for over 1000 yards and 12 TDs (led the conference in passing) and had a 3-to-1 TD-to-INT ratio. He was only a junior this year. We also return a kid who had almost 1000 total yards (about 500 receiving and 450 rushing) and 15 TDs and was named the Conference Offensive MVP. We are the 3rd smallest school in the conference. Other teams are mostly 6A and 7A. ...went 4-5 this year. Sounds to me like you need a defense. Well, I didn't want to get into that, but yeah...we were really bad on defense this year. We gave up more than 2500 yards rushing and about 30 points a game. Special teams were atrocious, too. We lost 6 onside kicks this year, two back-to-back in the same game that both led to TDs. |
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Post by khalfie on Nov 4, 2007 8:42:48 GMT -6
Sounds to me...
Like you need to get your own program?
Any schools in your area hiring? Are any other schools in your conference particularly horrible?
I'd bet a coach of your passion and aptitude, could do well at a historically poor high school.
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Post by wildcat on Nov 4, 2007 9:06:12 GMT -6
Sounds to me... Like you need to get your own program? Any schools in your area hiring? Are any other schools in your conference particularly horrible? I'd bet a coach of your passion and aptitude, could do well at a historically poor high school. I'll tell you what...you move up here to Rockford and you have yourself a deal!  |
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