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Post by Yash on Jan 7, 2008 22:10:32 GMT -6
I don't think its lack of athletes, I think its scheme. LSU brings pressure from everywhere. OSU brings 4 and expects their D line to get there time after time. Its not always going to happen you have to bring some a little extra. Everytime they do blitz they get beat in coverage. I'm not sure what they are playing behind the blitz but LSU finds a way to rattle the QB you gotta find a way too.
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Post by theprez98 on Jan 7, 2008 22:13:33 GMT -6
Its bad coaching. OSU and MICHIGAN, despite flukes dont have the athletes to play Florida-Miami-LSU-FSU football. As good as OSU is their dL hasnt made a play in two NC games. The difference and its a big is the lack of athletes at big 10 like schools....I would Love to see the big go to pittsburgh- NE type defenses. Do you honestly believe this? That the Big Ten has a "lack of athletes"? Michigan had the "athletes" to beat Florida this year. Penn State beat Florida State in 2005 and Tennessee last year. OSU seemed to match up well with Miami in 2002!
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Post by theprez98 on Jan 7, 2008 22:21:07 GMT -6
It was one game, if they play that 9 more times? OSU loses 9 times. The difference is that you don't play the game 10 times. You play it once, and highly favored Miami lost.
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Post by spreadattack on Jan 7, 2008 22:21:10 GMT -6
I'm so tired of this Big 10 has no speed or the SEC is so far beyond in "speed" or athletes. Ohio St has more players in the NFL (and more players in the NFL under 5 years in the league) than every SEC team. Only Miami has more. Anyone who makes this argument - TV or not - simply is spending too much time drinking the kool-aid.
LSU has talent, surely. But Ohio St is choking big time and not making the plays they need to make. The only thing the "speed" argument might mean in this context is the OSU guys psyching themselves out.
Anyway, from a coaching POV I love all the unbalanced formations from both teams. Crowton's doing a lot of unique ones to get a leverage advantage.
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Post by Yash on Jan 7, 2008 22:23:18 GMT -6
I still don't think its lack of athletes. year after year the best linebackers in the nation come from the Big 10. Did LSU have better athletes than the OU team they played in 2003? I don't think so I think stoops got out coached. I think its the scheme thats hurting OSU compared to LSU. LSU's passing game is a lot of quick hitters that negate the blitz. OSU is tryign to drop back and throw longer routes giving time for the front four to get there.
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Post by theprez98 on Jan 7, 2008 22:23:43 GMT -6
Anyway, from a coaching POV I love all the unbalanced formations from both teams. Crowton's doing a lot of unique ones to get a leverage advantage. I've seen more unbalanced this year than I have in many previous years combined. Missouri does it especially well.
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Post by Coach Huey on Jan 7, 2008 22:34:44 GMT -6
coachj ... please bring your rants into some form of a coaching point
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Post by coachorr on Jan 7, 2008 22:43:43 GMT -6
One thing I have enjoyed out of watching some of the spread teams this year, is that when they are down (aka texas tech), they are in their element with clock management and game tempo.
Someone else made the comment that LSU has been the best at being both a good I power running attack and a good spread the field, no tight end attack. I think I would have to agree.
It would seem to me that LSU took some very well calculated risks to open the gap and OSU seemed to be too conservative and too undisciplined (seems like a contradiction, but that is the way I have seen it).
OSU, still has a lot to be proud of, I think some penalties, a blocked field goal, a huge sack for a turnover, and the last interception just took OSU out of their game plan.
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Post by jcarbon2 on Jan 7, 2008 22:54:40 GMT -6
Its OVER!!! LSU is KING!
The sweater vest has lost again!
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Post by cmow5 on Jan 7, 2008 23:25:22 GMT -6
Not a fan of either team, but did you see how many starters OSU has coming back. Can we see OSU for the third time next year. I know it is way to early, but still a scary thought.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 7, 2008 23:28:41 GMT -6
HOW in the WORLD...can coaches (or a coach) get online, and criticize a coaching staff with multiple national championships at different levels...and 3 BCS championship game appearances in like 6 years and make bleacher parental claims like 'its the coaching" and say that they are not doing what they need to do to match their players?
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Post by teachcoachwm on Jan 7, 2008 23:48:50 GMT -6
Trying to get back some actual analysis....to me, the difference in the two teams were in two areas....OSU's offensive line struggled with LSU's D-Line, even when there wasn't a Blitz on...and OSU's receivers were outmatched by LSU's DBs...to me, that was the biggest surprise.....the Buckeyes have no one close to Ginn or Gonzales this year
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Post by coachkeppy on Jan 8, 2008 1:17:02 GMT -6
I m so sick of this SEC stuff and how they have so much better athletes than the big ten. hey, number one complaint about this game: it was a home game for LSU. 30 yards worth of questionable penalties in two drives which very much aided 2 TDs for LSU. Then there was the 10 minute injury/tv timeout in between 3rd and 4th down in which OSU's FG team was iced which led to another momentum swinging play. Then LSU throws a couple Harry High School Plays, which the SEC is known for, one for a TD, and one for a big gainer. Now seriously, if you re favored in a national championship game, at home, do you really need to sink to stupid trick plays like that?
All that being said, Ohio St. let down the Big Ten again. There was a good, not great pass rush, and Boeckman absolutely had no pocket presence whatsoever. He had almost as bad a game as the Heisman trophy winner did last year. OSU ran the ball well early and played Big Ten football early, but LSU stepped up and stopped it. And LSU also played power football as well as they threw the ball in the spread. So in conclusion, I would like to see the game played at a level playing field. In this day and age, there is no reason a team should get to have a homefield game for a national championship. This game in no way proved who the best team in the nation was, and further makes an argument for a playoff. There were questionable calls in this game, but didnt decide the games like they did in two other national championship games (02 and 05) but, OSU still got homered down south.
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Post by brophy on Jan 8, 2008 7:32:09 GMT -6
what a great game.
I had to sleep on this, because I was just too geeked up as a 'fan' to post a legitimate response.
#1 - how both teams adjusted (schematically) to one another, (the first big gain by OSU use the seam route by #3 to control Steltz to allow the wheel by #2 to open up) a lot could be taken from the game from an execution standpoint, and also illustrate how the "little things" matter (excessive penalties / special teams play).
#2 - the poise and laser of Matt Flynn in pressure situations. Now, he may not be the greatest guy to run QB power all night, but he really has shown a lot of consistency in his throws. The pick he threw was great matchup by OSU to roll Cloud (Flynn forced the throw a little too soon, expecting C3), but all-in-all, his efficient delivery kept the Tigers fighting and his receivers free from bad spots.
#3 - How pointless the "pre-game motivation" hype was. '300' vs 'hate-mail' to inspire a team. It may help for the first series, but once you break the ice, you still have to play the game. Good opening shots by OSU to try to 'take it to' their opponent, but can you sustain "attitude" for an entire game?
#4 - When the heck did Laurengitis become the leading tackler? I don't mean this as an LSU fan, but for all the hype (Katzenmoyer, Hawk, Laurenitis,etc) that guy was a total non-factor and Hester was trucking him the entire game.
#5 - Vindication of Gary Crowton. After being maligned since leaving La Tech (Chicago,BYU,Oregon), his aggressive and horizontal-spread ideology has been rewarded. Also nice to see Les come into his "own", and will now cast his own shadow outside of Saban. Good for him.
***hey, for what its worth, there is a lot about this particular game, WE AS COACHES, could gain from ---- please, for OUR sake, try to keep the discussions focussed on our PROFESSION, and not the fan-speak vitriol***
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Post by groundchuck on Jan 8, 2008 8:03:55 GMT -6
I believe the unbalanced formation wildcat was referring to in his post looked like this....OR SOMETHING similar.
Y...G...C...G...T...T............X ..........Q........................W...Z .......................................S
I thought the crucial point of the game for LSU was the blocked FG. Actually it was keeping OSU off the board, not neccesarily the blocked kick. If OSU scores on that drive they got up 17-3 (right?). If OSU gets up 17-3 with the mojo going thier way LSU has a tougher time climbing back in and over taking the Buckeyes.
Speed wise.....everyone on the field looked fast to me. I think media hype has something to do with the SEC being the fastest conference. Somebody brought up the concept of team speed and I could buy that. But I would guess that OSU's 22 starters and LSU's 22 starters are pretty darn close in any speed evaluation you want to use. This was not like Miami-Nebraska a few years ago where it was like an Indy car vs a bicycle.
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Post by pantherpride91 on Jan 8, 2008 8:18:07 GMT -6
One of the things that I found intesting is that how comfortable the teams seemed in their own offenses. What I mean by this is that LSU looked just as comfortable from a Pro-I set as they did going with a 5 wide look. When OSU went anything outside of a more traditional pro set they looked to be out-of-sync and panicked. This is one thing that i hope Coach Rod up at Michigan is going to bring to the Big 10. Up here in Big 10 country we see a lot of teams that are still hesitant to come out of their traditional shells. The speed for the Big 10 is there, and with as Beanie Wells showed so is the power, but the schemes are lacking behind.
I also would have liked to see OSU throw more than two or three horizontal passes. Like Brophy said, Gary Crowton's offense worked wonders last night with the horizontal game. How many times did they actually go deep? I think they took a couple shots but other than that it was short controlled passes. It drove me insane watching a 3rd and 6 and OSU thinkig they need to get 20. Run a 10 yard out, or stick route, or crossing route and get the sticks moved. The passing balance for OSU, imo, was just not there. When you do not have game breakers at any of your wide receiver positions you have got to understand what you can throw. Against Big 10 corners the go routes might be there more often, but that will not work when you are matched speed for speed.
Physically the match up was pretty even in my eyes. Glenn Dorsey was not really at that much of a factor. Jacob Hester and Beanie Wells controlled their aspects of the game. The passing game and special teams is really where the difference was made. You take away a blocked field goal, dropped touchdown (on a wonderful play by the DB), and stupid roughing the punter we have a whole new game.
Homefield did play a role in the game despite the number of people that came down from Columbus. I think they said this was Hester's 11th time playing in the dome. Lack of discipline was a huge factor was well. I have watched about 95% of the buckeye games over the last 6 or 7 years and never have I seen the lack of composure that I saw last night. All that being said, it was a good game and even though OSU did not win, I do not think it set the Big 10 "back to the 60s" as Herbstreit said in the pregame. It has already been said, but OSU returns a lot of people ( one senior on defense). One more year as well for Boeckman and Beanie. As much as people may hate it, round 3 is not of of the question next year. September 13th at USC will be a huge game. New QB at USC against an experienced OSU team...
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Post by brophy on Jan 8, 2008 8:23:29 GMT -6
I believe the unbalanced formation wildcat was referring to in his post looked like this....OR SOMETHING similar. Y...G...C...G...T...T............X ..........Q........................W...Z .......................................S the touchdown one, I believe was something like this;; ------------------Y-G--C--G--T-------------T-X---------- ---H--------------------Q------------------F-----Z------- then they went back to a similiar formation in the 3rd qtr inside the 40s but backed out the removed "T" (was a receiver) to created a quad-diamond set ..... ---X---------------Y-G--C--G--T---------------Z---------- -------------------------Q-------------------F-----H------- --------------------------------------------------A---------- throwing the bubble to 'A'pretty much forcing OSU to defend the EMOL backside (who wasn't eligible, but because they were fooled on it before on the TD). I'd have to check, but I think this was a 3rd down play, because the previous play was a Hester run for a short gain on the left, and once Hester was down, Herman Johnson was getting up and running off the field (and I was like "WTF"?), but then again, I could be wrong. I just remember Johnson leaving right after a 2nd down play
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Post by davecisar on Jan 8, 2008 8:31:22 GMT -6
Brophy is corret on the formation. It was an A-11 type thing. The tight end on the left side was left uncovered as the defense lined up on the "quads" which was just trips with an inelligeble reciever offensive linemen set inside the quads, LSU lined that up real quick so the defense wouldent figure out the deception. Great play.
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Post by coache67 on Jan 8, 2008 9:15:52 GMT -6
The first TD play you guys are describing was Circus (Emendorfer).
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Post by gunrun on Jan 8, 2008 9:24:38 GMT -6
I kinda thought the same thing, "Hey, LSU runs the A-11 offense," when I saw that play. Pretty clever. As far as analysis goes, I think Ohio St played alright, but they simply got beat by a better team. LSU controlled the LOS on both sides. As far as the SEC "superior speed," I think it is a myth, except for the DL position, where I would give the SEC a speed advantage over most other conferences.
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Post by slydaddy on Jan 8, 2008 11:29:33 GMT -6
I don't think that LSU has more speed than OSU. I think that LSU has cut it's teeth on strong opponents every week in the SEC, whereas Ohio State has played softer competition week after week. I can't go after non-conference because both of them play soft non-conference games, but in the conference, I feel the SEC is just tougher on a week-to-week basis. Of course, this is only an opinion. I can't explain the Florida loss to Michigan. Maybe it is an abberation, but to me the SEC is just the best conference because every game LSU played got them ready for the national championship. Of course, just an opinion from an SEC homer. Back to x's and o's, I loved the imagination LSU put into their offensive and defensive game plans. If you have over a month to put in a game plan, why wouldn't you change it up a little? LSU did, OSU didn't.-
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Post by brophy on Jan 8, 2008 12:54:13 GMT -6
additional notes; 6) it was nice to hear MVP Matt Flynn sum up the performance of both participants with the "execution" phrase ("we came out and executed....") which, at times, really is overlooked by many critics. 7) A case could be made for the use of 'stall-ball' in the 3rd qtr and/or time of possession, I suppose (?). 8) both DC's put on a clinic of overload pressures and when to use them. 9) I am pretty sure most folks didn't predict how 'under-utilized' Perilloux was versus the perceived weakness of OSU defense.
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Post by Yash on Jan 8, 2008 15:27:25 GMT -6
I think Lsu might be the best team in the country at window dressing its intention. I disagree I think LSU tips their hand at what they are going to do. If they line up I with hester at TB they tend to give him the ball. If he lines up at Fullback they throw it to him or give it to him up the middle. If they go gun they tend to spread it out and pass unless Periloux is in, then they run Tebow type stuff with him. I think that LSU is pretty predictable with their play calling, they are just better at executing it than OSU was on defense. I know there are exceptions to the stuff I posted above but I think they tip it pretty well what they are going to do.
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Post by lionhart on Jan 9, 2008 18:50:50 GMT -6
i dont think the sec "speed" advantage is a real thing, it may be more of just how the teams are viewed by the media. i think its more directly related to the types of offenses you see week to week in the sec vs the big ten. i think, perhaps, the APPEARANCE of more speed might be generated by the fact that sec teams use more athletes on the field via the spread schemes. the high-powered offense of florida, kentucky, lsu, and tennesse (all use varuations of the spread) may have up to 4 or 5 "speed" guys on the field at one time. you rarely see that in the big-ten. you are more likely to see a run-oriented power game in that conference. i mean, how many times in a big ten game will you see a 4.2 4o guy like percy harvin in the backfield? that being said, it cant be a difference in "athletes", just look at what michigan did to florida. oh, thats right.... they ran spread sets almost the entire game.
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Post by 2leegit on Jan 9, 2008 19:08:21 GMT -6
The Michigan vs. Florida game should not have been that close. Florida is a one dimensional and is a team comprised of mostly sophmores and freshmen. Michigan is a team full of seniors. Michigan should have won by at least 21 points. Look at what Michigan did against multidimensional spread veteren teams in App State and Oregon.
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Post by lionhart on Jan 9, 2008 20:04:30 GMT -6
maybe mich said "if you cant beat em, join em!".... for the bowl game
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Post by Yash on Jan 9, 2008 21:15:20 GMT -6
The Michigan vs. Florida game should not have been that close. Florida is a one dimensional and is a team comprised of mostly sophmores and freshmen. Michigan is a team full of seniors. Michigan should have won by at least 21 points. Look at what Michigan did against multidimensional spread veteren teams in App State and Oregon. How was florida one dimensional? Tebow had over 250 yards passing, harvin had over 100 yards rushing. They weren't one dimensional at all I don't think. Florida put up almost 400 yards of offense still so it wasn't like michigan shut them down.
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Post by slydaddy on Jan 10, 2008 6:53:38 GMT -6
Florida was very young this year. Think how scary they are gonna be next year. Watch out for the Gators! They will probably be in next year's national championship game with Ohio State again. Not that Ohio State will deserve it, but their cupcake schedule will get them there.
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Post by theprez98 on Jan 10, 2008 22:27:33 GMT -6
Not that Ohio State will deserve it, but their cupcake schedule will get them there. Yeah, playing USC in the non-conference schedule is a plateful of cupcakes.
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Post by slydaddy on Jan 11, 2008 6:22:05 GMT -6
Forgive my ignorance, just checked the 2008 OSU schedule. They do play USC, therefore, they will have at least one loss. It, of course, will probably be a 50 point beatdown.
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