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Post by Yash on Apr 2, 2008 10:21:39 GMT -6
Well, make sure you read the first post in the thread, it was brought about my my Understand Human Differences class and I think that any time there is a 98% domination of something by one race, no matter whether it be sports or playing marbles or school or whatever, I think its worth discussing. Football happens to be what I like to do, so why not discuss the diversity of it. This doesn't have to be a negative conversation. I was looking for factors that created the 98% to 2% difference I listed. I never stated "Race effects athletic ability" I stated that there was a difference in percentages and asked why could that be. And race doesn't matter, it shouldn't matter, but its still an issue in today's society. So when an issue in today's society comes into our profession why not discuss it to hopefully better understand it and get rid of any myths that may come from it. Education and understanding the issue are the way to make it a non-issue.
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Post by tiger46 on Apr 2, 2008 11:32:14 GMT -6
Yash, I read the entire thread. I know this is for your college paper. I don't think the conversation is negative. And, the question isn't flippant. Why does/would anyone care about the race of an athlete?
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Post by phantom on Apr 2, 2008 15:57:42 GMT -6
Our school is about 50-50 black and white and last year we had four white kids on the varsity, three of whom were kickers. The fourth was a soph lineman who's name is, ironically, Snow. I've coached DBs since 1990 and we've had a grand total of two white DBs during that time and only one started.
For whatever reason the white kids here don't come out for football and basketball. I wish I knew why because there have to be some white kids who can help us but they don't come out. I've talked to other coaches in this area-and this is a highly-recruited area-and they have similar experiences. I also talked to a lady in a supermarket the other day and she told me that her 6'2" 280 lb freshman plays baseball because he doesn't know anybody on the football team. Well, who does when they're freshmen? He says "baseball's his game".
I think that in may areas white kids eliminate themselves because they're intimidated by the reputation of the black athlete, racism (possibly subconscious), or just don't want to work hard.
This is similar to what's happening in baseball in reverse. My son played Little League in a league in a racially diverse, middle-class neighborhood and there were a total of three black kids in his league.
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Post by davecisar on Apr 2, 2008 16:07:50 GMT -6
Our school is about 50-50 black and white and last year we had four white kids on the varsity, three of whom were kickers. The fourth was a soph lineman who's name is, ironically, Snow. I've coached DBs since 1990 and we've had a grand total of two white DBs during that time and only one started. For whatever reason the white kids here don't come out for football and basketball. I wish I knew why because there have to be some white kids who can help us but they don't come out. I've talked to other coaches in this area-and this is a highly-recruited area-and they have similar experiences. I also talked to a lady in a supermarket the other day and she told me that her 6'2" 280 lb freshman plays baseball because he doesn't know anybody on the football team. Well, who does when they're freshmen? He says "baseball's his game". I think that in may areas white kids eliminate themselves because they're intimidated by the reputation of the black athlete, racism (possibly subconscious), or just don't want to work hard. One of the reasons I always try and set up an extra game versus a traditionally all black inner-city team at least once a year for my lily white rural teams. We also always scrimmage an inner-city team that is 90% black. I think by starting that type of thing when kids are young shows them we are all basically the same in many ways.
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Post by coachmathis on Apr 2, 2008 21:39:14 GMT -6
Being a young black male, IMO the difference is the things that you doing growing up. Many black NFL players come from homes that are low on the socioeconomic ladder and therefore probably spend more time outside being athletic. Running, jumping and things of that nature.
When you are poor you invent games and do dumb things because you have time to burn and most of them require athleticism,such as knocking on peoples doors late at night ad running when then start to open it. If it were simply a case of genetics then if the right people had babies, they would create superhuman athletes and we all know this isn't that case.
One reason that there is a huge disparity at those positions is a theory called "stacking". Someone mentioned the white kid who had all of the measureables but was overlooked because he was white and different fit the profile for the positions he played.
Spots stacking is classified as steering athletes towards certain positions based on race. Check into that. This is probably the biggest reason for the racial disparity at those positions.
I also think that your culture plays a role because this will impact the sports you grow up playing. Many blacks from poor environments grow up playing football from the time they can walk therefore, they may have better instincts and react faster and have a better feel for positions that require less technique and more creativity because they have been playing the sport so long that the movements become more natural.
Food for thought: Could the mindset of the athlete play a roll? Many white athletes are intimidated by black athletes and feel inferior and this may cause them to not put their best foot forward because they assume that they will be athletically inferior because they are competing against blacks.
I bring that up because I have heard white athlete mention that their team was in trouble or would lose because the other team was either all black or majority black.
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Post by tiger46 on Apr 3, 2008 20:51:03 GMT -6
Doing my best at keeping it succint: White children have a wider variety of sports that they can play.
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eccdodd
Probationary Member
Posts: 5
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Post by eccdodd on Apr 4, 2008 14:37:04 GMT -6
Many folks have posted on this thread that black children play different games as children because they are poor and cannot afford video games etc.
I think one statistic needs to be noted. There are more white people who live below the povertly line than black. As of 2006 it was 16 million white vs 9 million black. So if being poor and playing physical games lead you to be a great running back you would expect the ratio to be something like 65% white and 35% black. Unless people are saying that poor black children play differently than poor white children which seems unlikely to me.
I am not even sure that black kids actually do play differently than white regardless of income. I was your standard middle class white kid and I and all my friends played basketball every day and played back yard tackle football once or twice a week. And volunteering with poor kids of all colors I find that they play quite a bit of video games and often have obesity problems.
I am not sure what all of the reasons are for the dominance of Black players in some positions and some sports. But I find it hard to reject the hypothesis that it is partially related to genetics.
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Post by phantom on Apr 4, 2008 15:01:56 GMT -6
There's a question I've asked that nobody has answered: There have been many great African-American sprinters. There have been many great African distance runners. There has never been a great African-American distance man or a great African sprinter.
Why?
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Post by tiger46 on Apr 4, 2008 15:31:19 GMT -6
Phantom, I don't really think African-Americans and Africans have as much in common as far as nutrition, and body development, access to weight training, etc...
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Post by phantom on Apr 4, 2008 17:40:43 GMT -6
Phantom, I don't really think African-Americans and Africans have as much in common as far as nutrition, and body development, access to weight training, etc... Then, running far should be harder.
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Post by wildcat on Apr 4, 2008 19:51:03 GMT -6
To answer Wildcat's question about black hockey, golf, tennis players, it all goes back to MONEY. Earl Woods fitted Tiger, with new clubs, every six months as he was growing to make sure he didn't alter his swing. It doesn't take a lot to pick up a basketball and go to the free gym. It wasn't a question...I was being facetious.
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Post by silkyice on Apr 4, 2008 21:20:54 GMT -6
Phantom, I don't really think African-Americans and Africans have as much in common as far as nutrition, and body development, access to weight training, etc... Then, running far should be harder. I will disagree here. Guys who run long distances don't need the body development or weight training or even nutrition to build muscle like sprinters do. They just need enough nutrition to replace the calories burned.
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Post by tiger46 on Apr 4, 2008 22:40:45 GMT -6
Frankly, I think the whole issue is a bunch of bs. There is no magical formula. I wish there were. I'd bottle it and make a lot of money selling 'Increase Your Chances of Going Pro: How to Play Like a Black Person' to white kids and their parents. But, lets entertain the absurd. Long distance is different from sprinting. Sprinting is expensive in terms of calories, muscle output, etc... Think American musclecars, quarterhorse sprinting or, even dragsters. It's an expensive endeavor compared to thoroughbred racing, Le Mans or, even stock car racing. The lack of Black American long distance runners can be dismissed culturally. No one that I grew up with cared how long or far a person could run. It was all about speed. In Africa, endurance is valued. Maybe it has something to do with being more closely associated with a hunter/gather society. Maybe it doesn't. I don't know. I really don't care. It would be more fair to compare the black American sprinter to a black European sprinter than it would be to compare him to a black African sprinter. I really think people discount the black cultural experience of living in America. I think some of it is because it is not all pretty. No one really took Khalfie's suggestion of breeding seriously. It was a bit tongue in cheek. But, what if it was taken more seriously? Has anyone ever thought about the selective breeding that took place during slavery? People are so quick/reluctant to consider genetics. But, did anyone ever consider selective breeding, as a factor? It happened during slavery. What if the Hitler and the Third Reich had been given a little bit more time to develop the ultimate Arian? I'm not backing the theory of selective breeding. I'm just putting it out there as another turd to stack on the pile of bs. Again, I think the whole question is absurd. Honestly, I can't believe an institution of higher learning doesn't have better endeavors to spend its time on than the 'differences between races'. But, I'm not about to get on a soapbox about it. I think poor black(or, any other color) kids make poor players. It has nothing to do with their abilities as athletes. Their nutrition is horrible. Too many are not prepared to take their steps into the rites of passage into becoming a responsible male adult. Their work ethic is often bad. Being raised by single mothers that treat them like 'men of the house' makes them resentful towards male authority figures. Many are very emotionally immature. Many project their feelings of resentment about being rejected by their absent fathers onto male authority figures(read coach). Poor kids from single mother and 'grandma raised' households can be very difficult to work with. As a coach, I couldn't give less of a damn than I already do about what race or color my players are. I only care about how coachable they are and how they play. I can't believe I even wrote this much about the subject.
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Post by coachd5085 on Apr 5, 2008 9:22:37 GMT -6
I really think people discount the black cultural experience of living in America. I think some of it is because it is not all pretty. No one really took Khalfie's suggestion of breeding seriously. It was a bit tongue in cheek. But, what if it was taken more seriously? Has anyone ever thought about the selective breeding that took place during slavery? People are so quick/reluctant to consider genetics. But, did anyone ever consider selective breeding, as a factor? Yes, someone did 20 years ago in 1988...and he got fired for it once the NAACP started its outcry. Are you serious? This is an excellent use of a universities resources. It is called social science. This particular topic is a little myopic, but then again, it was chosen as an individual students project, not a university endeavor. But the class as a whole is very much a valid course.
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nannother
Sophomore Member
GREATEST RB EVER
Posts: 122
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Post by nannother on Apr 5, 2008 10:06:32 GMT -6
Many folks have posted on this thread that black children play different games as children because they are poor and cannot afford video games etc. I think one statistic needs to be noted. There are more white people who live below the povertly line than black. As of 2006 it was 16 million white vs 9 million black. So if being poor and playing physical games lead you to be a great running back you would expect the ratio to be something like 65% white and 35% black. Unless people are saying that poor black children play differently than poor white children which seems unlikely to me. I am not even sure that black kids actually do play differently than white regardless of income. I was your standard middle class white kid and I and all my friends played basketball every day and played back yard tackle football once or twice a week. And volunteering with poor kids of all colors I find that they play quite a bit of video games and often have obesity problems. I am not sure what all of the reasons are for the dominance of Black players in some positions and some sports. But I find it hard to reject the hypothesis that it is partially related to genetics. You cant be serious. When you look at the fact that white people make up make up 80.1 percent of the population (237,854,954) and black people make up 12.8 or (37,909,341) you begin to see how it really looks. 9 million impoverished black people make up about a 1/4 of the black population.
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eccdodd
Probationary Member
Posts: 5
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Post by eccdodd on Apr 5, 2008 13:02:15 GMT -6
Many folks have posted on this thread that black children play different games as children because they are poor and cannot afford video games etc. I think one statistic needs to be noted. There are more white people who live below the povertly line than black. As of 2006 it was 16 million white vs 9 million black. So if being poor and playing physical games lead you to be a great running back you would expect the ratio to be something like 65% white and 35% black. Unless people are saying that poor black children play differently than poor white children which seems unlikely to me. I am not even sure that black kids actually do play differently than white regardless of income. I was your standard middle class white kid and I and all my friends played basketball every day and played back yard tackle football once or twice a week. And volunteering with poor kids of all colors I find that they play quite a bit of video games and often have obesity problems. I am not sure what all of the reasons are for the dominance of Black players in some positions and some sports. But I find it hard to reject the hypothesis that it is partially related to genetics. You cant be serious. When you look at the fact that white people make up make up 80.1 percent of the population (237,854,954) and black people make up 12.8 or (37,909,341) you begin to see how it really looks. 9 million impoverished black people make up about a 1/4 of the black population. Actually that is exactly my point. So there are 5 times as many white people as black in the country and out of 100 nfl speed position 2 are white. That means that if you are roughly 250 times 5x(98/2) as likely to be a nfl speed position player if you are black than white. I did not say that a higher PERCENTAGE of whites live in poverty. That would obvioulsly be false. Just that a higher NUMBER live in poverty. So if being poor made you play in a different way as a child and playing in a differnt way as a child made you fast then you would still expect more white kids to be in the NFL at speed positions because there are more of them not in a percentage sense but in an absolute sense. So if we had two equal sized populations of poor people and being poor as opposed to being of one race made you run fast (as some have claimed) then you would observer roughly equal proportions of people in these positions. And if one population was large in an absolute sense then you would expect a higher representation of that group if both were equal in talent.
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Post by coachcb on Apr 6, 2008 13:23:39 GMT -6
Here's my two cents. I feel that it is a combination of socio economic and cultural issues in many ways.
1. African American culture values athletics. African American males are stereo-typed as athletes by the media and by American popular culture in general. Football, baseball and basketball are huge parts of of African American culture; they were some of the first mediums where African Americans were held as equals (if not betters) than whites.
2. Many of your best athletes come from poor socioeconomic areas. This applies to all races; not just African Americans. It's pretty simple when you think about it; how do children entertain themselves when they don't have money? THEY PLAY OUTSIDE! THEY PLAY GAMES! THEY PLAY SPORTS. They get more physical activity in and such begin developing themselves into athletes at a young age. I grew up in a middle class household. I had video games, I had cable, and I had movies. I spent a lot of time playing outside because I enjoyed it. However, I still spent a lot of my free time playing Mario Bros 3 and Super-Contra on my Nintendo.
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Post by airman on Apr 6, 2008 13:34:27 GMT -6
i think when you look at from a financial stand point you see that white kids and the black middle and upper clase have more options for attend college not via scholarship.
if you are a poor black kid living in chicago and want to go to college you see the path that others have take. you play basketball and you earn a college scholarship or you are really smart and you earn a scholarship that way.
I hear charles barkley talk how he started to train for his scholarship at age 8 when he found out schools would give him a education in return for going to college.
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Post by safetycoach34 on Apr 6, 2008 17:04:16 GMT -6
There's a question I've asked that nobody has answered: There have been many great African-American sprinters. There have been many great African distance runners. There has never been a great African-American distance man or a great African sprinter. Why? Phantom I do not need have great answer just something i read somewhere can't think of where i saw it. But what I read is that the African distance runners are from Eastern Africa (kenya for example) These people historically are longer and leaner more adapted for long distances. The West coast of Africa are shorter more muscular historically (better sprinters bodies) The slave traders took African from teh West coast so there were more of the (sprinters bodies) being brought over then the distance runners. Just something i heard take it for what its worth
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Post by Yash on Apr 8, 2008 21:26:45 GMT -6
It could have something to do with a lot of the long distance runners from africa not having transportation other than their legs so they get used to running long distances to get places.
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