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Post by Yash on Mar 30, 2008 20:25:16 GMT -6
Guys, i'm doing my college Human Differences semester ending project on race in sports. We have watched a video on how Genetics don't make african american's better athletes, but there is obviously a great divide when it comes to speed related sports and the athlete who is excelling in them. I went through the NFL draft and charted out every Speed position player (RB, DB, WR) drafted in the first 2 rounds of the last 10 nfl drafts and it came out at 266 players drafted, 5 were white. So if its not genetics, what is it that separates the african american athlete from the white athlete in terms of speed. I want to hear your opinions on this and any articles that you may have that will help me with my project.
Also, I know I don't need to say this, I will just to try and keep this thread on the board, Please keep the discussion tasteful. I'm doing this to try and find out what causes the divide. I'm not complaining about the divide or trying to start race wars. Thanks for your thoughts!
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Post by jhanawa on Mar 30, 2008 20:37:46 GMT -6
I think its a mix of things, but really it boils down to where the kid spends his time, outside playing ball or on a couch playing video games. I think parental and older sibling influence and the importance that is cast upon sports in everyday life is a big influence. I know years ago when I was a kid before the video games, every kid was outside playing something. Lot less fat kids back then too.
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Post by coachd5085 on Mar 30, 2008 20:54:35 GMT -6
My completely unscientifically backed theory could be explained by their "play setting" in their earlier years. Again, with no data available to support my theory and purely based on my experience, I think one cause is that black youth seem to play in more diverse age groups. I have often seen 5 and 6 year olds playing with 8, 9 and 10 year olds during free play periods. I just haven't seen this much with white youth.
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Post by airraider on Mar 30, 2008 20:56:53 GMT -6
Guys, i'm doing my college Human Differences semester ending project on race in sports. We have watched a video on how Genetics don't make african american's better athletes, but there is obviously a great divide when it comes to speed related sports and the athlete who is excelling in them. I went through the NFL draft and charted out every Speed position player (RB, DB, WR) drafted in the first 2 rounds of the last 10 nfl drafts and it came out at 266 players drafted, 5 were white. So if its not genetics, what is it that separates the african american athlete from the white athlete in terms of speed. I want to hear your opinions on this and any articles that you may have that will help me with my project. I think Jimmy the Greek had a rather interesting view on it.
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Post by amikell on Mar 30, 2008 21:10:15 GMT -6
I may be going out on a limb here, but... I believe that one contributing factor is that, we as a society value fast/athletic African Americans more than we value smart/intelligent AA's. The social rewards (acceptance, peer praise, etc) are greater for an athletic AA than a 4.0. I do not think the same holds completely true for white kids. I think it is the mold that we have created for African Americans. If you are a young black male, you should be an athlete. I think that is a common thought throughout our society.
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Post by wildcat on Mar 30, 2008 21:13:52 GMT -6
I think that access, opportunity, and societal expectations have a lot more to do with it than DNA. If blacks are such better athletes, where are all of the black hockey, baseball, and tennis players, golfers, swimmers, gymnasts, etc, etc...? I coach at a racially diverse, low income high school and the BEST male athlete in the school, heck, in the entire conference, is a white kid.
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Post by wildcat on Mar 30, 2008 21:16:19 GMT -6
I may be going out on a limb here, but... I believe that one contributing factor is that, we as a society value fast/athletic African Americans more than we value smart/intelligent AA's. The social rewards (acceptance, peer praise, etc) are greater for an athletic AA than a 4.0. I do not think the same holds completely true for white kids. I think it is the mold that we have created for African Americans. If you are a young black male, you should be an athlete. I think that is a common thought throughout our society. I agree with this. At our high school, we have a program called "It's OK to Be Smart" that is targeted towards our black kids. A lot of our black kids really downplay any academic success they have because it is really not valued as much by their peers as much as being a good athlete is.
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Post by morris on Mar 31, 2008 5:26:01 GMT -6
I think that access, opportunity, and societal expectations have a lot more to do with it than DNA. If blacks are such better athletes, where are all of the black hockey, baseball, and tennis players, golfers, swimmers, gymnasts, etc, etc...? I coach at a racially diverse, low income high school and the BEST male athlete in the school, heck, in the entire conference, is a white kid. On a side note of the guys at the combine they were talking about only played his SR in HS because he was playing hockey and he was African Amercian. I am not around schools with hockey, lacross or a number of other sports mentioned or not. I think part of the divide might be the sports in which African American have access to and play in. Where some very good atheltes from other ethnic backgrounds might be spaced among a number of different sports the better African American athletes tend to stick to small group of sports such as basketball and football. They might later run track but I feel that is often an off shoot of the other sports. One reason for this might be more role models of their ethic background in a certain sport. In the other sports named there is a much smaller group playing them (look at golf, tennis, swimming, etc). When such a large group of one ethnic groups plays in such a smaller amoutn of sports I think it might skew the numbers some.
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Post by fatkicker on Mar 31, 2008 6:24:20 GMT -6
this doesn't relate......i'll put 20 on tiger dunking......
surely he can....
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Post by Yash on Mar 31, 2008 6:56:42 GMT -6
I think that access, opportunity, and societal expectations have a lot more to do with it than DNA. If blacks are such better athletes, where are all of the black hockey, baseball, and tennis players, golfers, swimmers, gymnasts, etc, etc...? I coach at a racially diverse, low income high school and the BEST male athlete in the school, heck, in the entire conference, is a white kid. I understand where you are coming from on this, and a lot of people have this story, but it doesn't translate to the highest level. How many white sprinters do you see in the olympics? only 2% of speed position players in the first 2 rounds of the NFL draft over the last 10 years have been white. There are exceptions to this, but not very many.
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Post by brophy on Mar 31, 2008 7:02:44 GMT -6
5 were white. So if its not genetics, what is it that separates the african american athlete from the white athlete in terms of speed. who are you omitting and who are you including (definition of race)? What if the mother was "white" and the father was "black"? Are you using a one-sixteenth rule, or something? It would be an interesting observation, if things were either HOT or COLD (but they are not). I'm not trying to be objective, but how can you come to a resolute finding if the foundation of the data is 'flawed'? www.amazon.com/Darwins-Athletes-Damaged-America-Preserved/dp/0395822920www.amazon.com/Assassination-Black-Male-Image/dp/0684836572Secondly, what does this have to do with football per se? This is a wide-sweeping generalization of all human beings.
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Post by Yash on Mar 31, 2008 7:14:16 GMT -6
Brophy thats a good point and very hard to determine. I went strictly on skin color in the profile pictures on bios. The 5 that were white were, Matt Jones, Brian Leonard, Eric Weddle, A safety for the bucs, (forgot first name) McGraw a safety
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Post by brophy on Mar 31, 2008 7:17:10 GMT -6
Brophy thats a good point and very hard to determine. I went strictly on skin color in the profile pictures on bios. The 5 that were white were, Matt Jones, Brian Leonard, Eric Weddle, A safety for the bucs, (forgot first name) McGraw a safety "What" is Hines Ward? and are we to make the assumption (because the 'data' supports it) that in the same fashion we are framing our assessment here, that "African-Americans" make horrible Head Coaches and Owners given the data and history of the NFL?
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Post by brophy on Mar 31, 2008 7:56:55 GMT -6
My completely unscientifically backed theory could be explained by their "play setting" in their earlier years. Again, with no data available to support my theory and purely based on my experience, I think one cause is that black youth seem to play in more diverse age groups. I have often seen 5 and 6 year olds playing with 8, 9 and 10 year olds during free play periods. I just haven't seen this much with white youth. That is the same 'hypothesis' I've had over the years. If kids (young kids) are engaging in explosive movements at a very young age (running, chasing, wrestling, etc). If a kid develops fast feet and bounding early, it usually stays with him throughout his life (regardless of what he does to 'maintain' it). There is a lot of 'static' play that we like to think kids are "playing", but they are more at the reserved speeds of adults (in the sandbox, riding a bike, on a swingset). Conversely, if a kid BEGINS his 'athletic training' at age 15/16, no matter how much parachute running and plyos he does, he has already reached an athletic ceiling. One of my best friends is a skinny white kid (actually 30-something now) and smokes a pack of cigarettes before playing flag-football (torching former D1 athletes). He doesn't work out, doesn't eat right, but because he was PWT as a kid and ALWAYS having to run home because he would get beat up everyday if he didn't.....his explosive core was set. The guys he was torching on the field were friends of mine who were bonafide athletes (including D1 100m runner, MLB outfielder, NFL db). I believe it is extremely naive to think that a person's skin tone ultimately determines their athletic capacity, without looking at the host of other factors involved that played a significant role in the ultimate outcome.
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Post by Yash on Mar 31, 2008 10:01:50 GMT -6
Exactly brophy, I agree with you that its naive to say that a persons skin tone determines athletic capacity. What my project is trying to find it out is what are those other factors that are creating the percentages we see. I'm not coming out and saying I'd rather have a black athlete over a white athlete, what I'm asking to all of you is, what are the factors that create this percentage difference that we see now.
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Post by brophy on Mar 31, 2008 10:14:27 GMT -6
Exactly brophy, I agree with you that its naive to say that a persons skin tone determines athletic capacity. What my project is trying to find it out is what are those other factors that are creating the percentages we see. I'm not coming out and saying I'd rather have a black athlete over a white athlete, what I'm asking to all of you is, what are the factors that create this percentage difference that we see now. Look at the overall picture. You made this assertion based on RACE (black / white) with little regard to the other classifications this pool is comprised of. What colleges are these players from? What is the demographic makeup that the college team is made up of? What states are these players coming from? What is the demographic makeup of the high school teams they are coming from? What is the demographic makeup of the region they are coming from? A "black receiver from Utah" and a "black receiver from Florida" probably do not equate comparably. I would think that trying to classify the NFL draftees as just "black" or "white" and how that contributes to their suCESS?
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Post by silkyice on Mar 31, 2008 10:20:01 GMT -6
this doesn't relate......i'll put 20 on tiger dunking...... surely he can.... I'm in for Franklin on that he can dunk. I read somewhere that he benches 315.
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Post by fatkicker on Mar 31, 2008 10:29:20 GMT -6
now he may look like a sissy trying to dribble and run.........ha
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Post by coachd5085 on Mar 31, 2008 10:40:57 GMT -6
I think that access, opportunity, and societal expectations have a lot more to do with it than DNA. If blacks are such better athletes, where are all of the black hockey, baseball, and tennis players, golfers, swimmers, gymnasts, etc, etc...? I coach at a racially diverse, low income high school and the BEST male athlete in the school, heck, in the entire conference, is a white kid. Are you seriously asking that question? Have you ever examined the socioeconomic statistics involving the sports you listed, and compared to socioeconomic statistics of blacks in America? Not anecdotal evidence, but stats based on adequate data sizes.
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Post by Yash on Mar 31, 2008 10:45:20 GMT -6
Brophy, i have the data of what college each player was drafted from, but the table is too big for here, if you want to see it I can send it to you. I was going to do hometown as well, but finding out the hometowns of 266 players is going to take a while.
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Post by coachd5085 on Mar 31, 2008 10:52:24 GMT -6
Exactly brophy, I agree with you that its naive to say that a persons skin tone determines athletic capacity. What my project is trying to find it out is what are those other factors that are creating the percentages we see. I'm not coming out and saying I'd rather have a black athlete over a white athlete, what I'm asking to all of you is, what are the factors that create this percentage difference that we see now. Look at the overall picture. You made this assertion based on RACE (black / white) with little regard to the other classifications this pool is comprised of. What colleges are these players from? What is the demographic makeup that the college team is made up of? What states are these players coming from? What is the demographic makeup of the high school teams they are coming from? What is the demographic makeup of the region they are coming from? A "black receiver from Utah" and a "black receiver from Florida" probably do not equate comparably. I would think that trying to classify the NFL draftees as just "black" or "white" and how that contributes to their suCESS? However, at the end of the day the "result" is the same. 5 white, and 261 non-white. So that doesn't change his exploration at all.
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Post by brophy on Mar 31, 2008 11:24:37 GMT -6
However, at the end of the day the "result" is the same. 5 white, and 261 non-white. So that doesn't change his exploration at all. Of those 266 athletes, what was the 'racial' make-up of their HS football team? For every 1 'black' kid that makes it to the NFL, there are probably 1,000,000 other 'black' kids that don't. How many of the 99% 'white' HS football teams have a bunch of kids going to DI schools (at the skill positions)? And again, THOSE conditions would make more of a difference in any serious data, than how you have conveniently classified a group of people based on their asthetic (not genetic) make-up. For instance, you have lets say 100 schools in Minnesota. They are comprised of 50,000 kids. Of those kids, 5 kids go onto DI programs. Lets say there are 300 schools in Alabama. They are comprised of 150,000 kids. Of those kids, 200 kids go onto DI programs. What is the 'racial' demographic of those environments? Saying that because there are more 'black' athletes in the NFL compared to 'white' athletes is like saying running backs with NIKE shoes score more than those with REEBOK shoes......it really isn't taking into account the factors that a play a significant contribution. Yash is trying to find a common thread with these athletes, but 'race' (singularly) may have little to do with the results. Right now, Yash is at "black" people comprise the majority of skill positions in the NFL. So far, we have only defined "black" as skin tone and nothing else.
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Post by coachd5085 on Mar 31, 2008 11:42:19 GMT -6
[ Of those 266 athletes, what was the 'racial' make-up of their HS football team? For every 1 'black' kid that makes it to the NFL, there are probably 1,000,000 other 'black' kids that don't. Remember, we are not talking about "the NFL" we are talking about a certain position classification in the NFL. And carrying your stat on further, since black athletes make up the majority (vast) population of NFL skilled positions, yet the minority of the population, then while your stat of 1 out of 1,000,000 for blacks may be accurate, it is still a greater likely hood than whatever the statistic is for whites. Therefore, still a legitimate exploration. I don't have hard data, I have observational data...and the answer is precious few (even fewer if you take away the QB as a skilled position) here in south Louisiana. I think this is exactly what he is studying. Those are the causal factors that create the end result. But regardless of those causal factors, the end result STILL is 5 whites and 261 non whites in "skill" positions .... It doesn't HAVE to, infact it CAN'T. That is what he is trying to ascertain. Saying that there are more blacks manning skill positions in the NFL is a 100% true statement based off of two criteria (definition of skill position, definition of black by social convention) set outside the study. It does not carry with it any meaning. Perhaps running backs with NIKE shoes do score more than those with REEBOX shoes. If so, that is a true statement, yet it carries with it no causal assumptions.
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Post by brophy on Mar 31, 2008 12:11:13 GMT -6
there are more blacks manning skill positions in the NFL is a 100% true statement based off of two criteria (definition of skill position, definition of black by social convention) set outside the study. It does not carry with it any meaning. NFL Protype at those positions; max - 6'6", 230lbs, 4.3 speed min - 5'10", 195lbs, 4.6 speed These are physical benchmarks that 'white' athletes can and do reach. To make the assertion the author is claiming, then these benchmarks have to be easier for "black" athletes to reach than their "white" counterparts. (i.e. 3 out of 100 'white' kids can meet these standards 70 out of 100 'black' kids can meet these standards) Is there a standard battery of tests employed by the country to obtain this demographic data? Presidential Physical Fitness? I dunno...or do we just use our limited observations to make wild hypothesis? So if its not genetics, what is it that separates the african american athlete from the white athlete in terms of speed. I want to hear your opinions on this and any articles that you may have that will help me with my project. The two books listed above are actually now used as text books in some colleges. Both are good reads, and if I have time tonight, I'll try to cite some of the material that it outlines. These books ("Darwin's Athletes" in particular) illustrate the dominance of Northern European athletes in Field events (massive upper bodies), the dominance of sprinters from West Africa, and history of aerobic marathoners from North Africa. Thing is, NOBODY (I mean NOBODY) is comprised of 'pure-blood' ancestry in America to make these distinctions. I believe that you cannot have an explosive athlete unless the core is developed and the earlier the development of that core, the better overall athletic capacity you will end up with. So, it isn't necessarily these pro prospects playing youth sports that got them into the NFL, but what they DID as young children.....how they played, the activities they were generally involved in. Here is something interesting..... CHRIS LONG.Is he a Top 5 prospect because of how he was developed as an athlete, or just because he is Howie Long's son? this doesn't relate......i'll put 20 on tiger dunking...... surely he can.... based on WHAT, exactly? Because he's black (& Thai) or something else? If something else, then what relevance does it have to this discussion?
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Post by rcole on Mar 31, 2008 13:39:16 GMT -6
I can't think of the name of the book at the moment, but there was a huge body of research published on this topic in the last 10 years. A book was released summarizing and analyzing the research. One thing that stood out to me as I read the book (in the book store without buying it) was that the statistical variance among AA's was greater than the statistical variance between AA's and "whites" when comparing speed, fast-twitch fiber, jumping, etc. I know our observations tell us otherwise, but sometimes there are other variable creating the trends that we observe (as Brophy and others have pointed out). I wonder how many millions of Americans had the raw genetic ability to play in the NFL but never even touched a football or even considered playing any sport at all? There is so much at play on this it is hard to even wrap your brain around all of the variables.
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Post by brophy on Mar 31, 2008 13:50:15 GMT -6
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Post by silkyice on Mar 31, 2008 14:04:16 GMT -6
Guys,
It is 261 to 5.
TWO-HUNDRED SIXTY-ONE to FIVE!
If you don't know the answer then you aren't using your brain.
I am not saying that a certain black individual is a better athlete then a certain white individual.
But, blacks who play sports on average are faster and can jump better than the average white who plays sports.
There might be other reasons for this, playing with older kids, running more, economic, expectations, whatever.
But to me, the stats bear out that blacks have better genes for playing football at the RB,DB,WR positions.
I coached at a mostly white (97%) schools for 15 years. This year I coach at a 47% black school. I have 5 kids this year who can jump 36 inches on the "Just Jump." I have 7 more who can jump 33"+. I had three in 15 years who could jump 35" at the other schools, and one of them was black. The kids at my previous school had been working out and jumping boxes for 6 straight years. These guys have been doing it for 5 MONTHS.
But, I had a white DB at the old school who is still the best DB I have ever coached. So I am for everybody being an individual and judged on what each individual does, but cut the political correctness bullcrap and quit ignorning unbelivable group stats.
If genes played no role, then why aren't there an equal number of girls playing NFL?
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Post by brophy on Mar 31, 2008 14:27:25 GMT -6
so what MADE those 'black' athletes better (what equipped them to jump / run)?
Yash will be writing a very boring and uninformed study if all he is doing is pointing out that there are more "black" athletes in the NFL than "white". That isn't what he is asking.
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Post by silkyice on Mar 31, 2008 15:11:57 GMT -6
I know that is not what he is asking. He stated that he watched a video that genetics doesn't make black athletes better. The video was wrong.
That doesn't discount individuals who have made it. The ones who have made it worked their tails off, but they had some genetic advantage to begin with.
We have to agree that genes play a role in athletes. If you don't believe that, then you take fifty sons of college professors and make a team, and I will take fifty sons from former NFL players and make a team, and let's see which team is better.
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Post by Yash on Mar 31, 2008 16:29:29 GMT -6
Brophy, thanks for the book references, I'm going to get them from the library ASAP. And I would really like to do a study like you suggested but the reality of it is, its 100 point project, not a semester long study. Unfortunately it will be shallow in some aspects. The definition of "black" that i'm using is rather vague, I realize that but its a time thing, I can't research everyones family tree. And I agree, just pointing out stats would be boring, that is why I brought it to the board. I know that I could get some good discussion on here that could lead me in the right direction for some solid research.
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