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Post by carookie on Feb 24, 2019 14:35:53 GMT -6
So the threads about Haircuts and Accessories, and subsequent debates, got me thinking about the "Broken Windows Theory" and how it relates to coaching. IIRC, the broken windows theory is basically an theory that visible signs of blight and crime (graffiti, broken windows, etc) lead to an increase in crime and anti social behavior. Some argue that cleaning up the tagging, and going after the small crimes (turnstile hopping) in an effort to address this theory it was helped Giuliani turn New York around in the early 90s.
So, what does this have to do with coaching? Well some could argue that hair length policy, banning of non-uniform accessories, etc. could serve as 'Broken Window' type of coaching on your football team (ie things look organized and orderly so players will respond as such). Others seem to feel that they just get in the way or are more hassle than they are worth. Still others thinking they are outside of our jurisdiction and example of helicopter coaching.
I am wondering your thoughts on this.
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Post by TheOlBallCoach on Feb 24, 2019 15:38:50 GMT -6
100% agree
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2019 15:58:42 GMT -6
A lot of the broken window theory has been disputed by researchers who see it as unnecessarily and wrongfully credited for stuff that happened nationwide in other places and continued a trend that started before the policies ever went into effect. www.npr.org/2016/11/01/500104506/broken-windows-policing-and-the-origins-of-stop-and-frisk-and-how-it-went-wrongPersonally, I suspect that a lot of the "broken window" success stories aren't so much because the coach is applying "broken window policy" to players and coaches, so much as the coach is an anxious control freak who makes sure every detail is done on his end, making him extra-competent and increasing his own influence. It's not that players are responding to "broken window" policies, it's that the coach himself is doing a better job of anticipating and dealing with meaningful problems efficiently alongside all the small "broken window" stuff. Making kids wear ties on game day and ride in absolute silence to road games? Probably not very effective. Making sure that the assistants are teaching proper techniques, the weight room attendance and effort are good, and that you've got contingency plans A, B, C, D, and E for everything possible? That stuff is effective. A guy who obsesses over the former is more likely to also obsess over the latter. However, I've worked alongside coaches and teachers who stressed the minor stuff... but had huge blind spots over major issues or let their obsession over small details drive wedges between themselves and the kids and faculty they worked with, which actually created bigger problems and a toxic culture. It's not a clear cut recipe for success. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Feb 24, 2019 16:38:25 GMT -6
I think the argument/discussion would become "is this a 'broken window' rule?". I could see an argument being made for uniform code but not hairstyle, as uniform is something that only applies to football, and has no other possible relationship to beliefs, expression etc. Hair is different.
I agree with much of what @coacharnold says above. I know of a very successful coach (almost 300 wins with a .770 winning percentage) who actually would schedule asst coach dress code for practice during the week. For example, Monday, white shirts, and blue bottoms. Tuesday might be blue shirts with yellow bottoms etc.
Obviously what the coaches were wearing during practice does not affect the performance of the team. But as was mentioned, that kind of planning and attention to detail absolutely has led to the coach's Hall of Fame induction.
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Post by 19delta on Feb 24, 2019 17:04:27 GMT -6
I thought this thread was going to be about Frederic Bastiat...  |
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Post by dubber on Feb 24, 2019 21:52:44 GMT -6
I get it....sometimes you do things like that when you are trying to change a culture.
But it ain’t my style.
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byuwolverine
Junior Member
Life is a game of inches --- Add them up in any aspect and there is your outcome.
Posts: 285
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Post by byuwolverine on Feb 24, 2019 23:43:41 GMT -6
When focusing on the little things, they have to translate into the bigger issue you are trying to address.
EX:
Weight room.
- I stole this from another coach. I have the kids put the bolt side of the weight facing out on the first plate and in on the second and consecutive plates. This forces the kids to focus on little things. They take pride in this. Forces attention to detail.
- Put plates and DB's back in the correct spot, spot the lift correctly, proper set up and have and coach a routine for the 4-5 athletes at each rack to follow.
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Post by CanyonCoach on Feb 25, 2019 9:08:50 GMT -6
I worked in corrections for a number of years and will tell you that when criminals are thinking about how to not get punished for a dress code vs. how to shank a fellow inmate life is generally more pleasant.
I will also say it does not work in a vacuum...there has to be more to it than just making very detailed rules and punishing those who don't comply.
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Post by Coach Bennett on Feb 25, 2019 9:23:20 GMT -6
So the threads about Haircuts and Accessories, and subsequent debates, got me thinking about the "Broken Windows Theory" and how it relates to coaching. IIRC, the broken windows theory is basically an theory that visible signs of blight and crime (graffiti, broken windows, etc) lead to an increase in crime and anti social behavior. Some argue that cleaning up the tagging, and going after the small crimes (turnstile hopping) in an effort to address this theory it was helped Giuliani turn New York around in the early 90s. I guess it comes down to the basic premise if a coach looks at haircuts as a "visible sign of blight and crime." Another way to look at it is what are "small crimes" within our programs? Showing up late? Jumping the turnstile of team assignments such as filling the practice water cart or picking up the locker room? Vaping? Leaving one's game jersey hanging from the outside of their locker instead of locking it up? Getting in trouble in school? ...and then...what degree of accountability do we assign to these small crimes? |
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Post by silkyice on Feb 25, 2019 9:40:04 GMT -6
If you think something is important, do it and enforce it.
If something is a problem, find a way to fix it and enforce it.
But to just do something to do it or if it is a pain to enforce or if the kids resent it, well, that is stupid.
Next, what I think is important and what you think is important will differ. Just be yourself. But don't go looking for more stuff to enforce.
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Post by fkaboneyard on Feb 25, 2019 10:13:33 GMT -6
I don't care about sleeves, arm bands, stuff like that. I guess the opposite of the broken window theory is that if a kid "feels" like he is a better football player because he is wearing that stuff maybe he'll work harder like a football player should.
I was in a program where a bunch of the kids would do their own thing with their practice uniforms - one black/one white cleat, no jersey at all - just shoulder pads, arms not through the armhole of the jersey (just their head through and the rest tucked under the shoulder pad so their belly and most of their shoulder pads showed), ribbons dangling off the sides of their hips like they were flag football players and a host of other stupid stuff. This behavior was limited to a couple of skill kids that were great athletes but were extremely selfish and lazy. I'm not dumb enough to think that the stuff caused their laziness/selfishness but it was a symptom of it. The HC tolerated it - "I have bigger things to worry about" but it did tend to trickle down to the younger kids that wanted to emulate them. I hated it. I coached OL/DL, some of my guys started doing it and I put a stop to it immediately. I always held them to a higher standard. It bugged a couple of them at first but eventually they got over it. They eventually saw that the guys doing it were just trying to draw attention to themselves. Without exception, the guys that were doing it were the guys that quit on us when things really mattered. They were more concerned about being individuals than being part of something bigger than themselves.
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Post by carookie on Feb 25, 2019 13:22:10 GMT -6
So the threads about Haircuts and Accessories, and subsequent debates, got me thinking about the "Broken Windows Theory" and how it relates to coaching. IIRC, the broken windows theory is basically an theory that visible signs of blight and crime (graffiti, broken windows, etc) lead to an increase in crime and anti social behavior. Some argue that cleaning up the tagging, and going after the small crimes (turnstile hopping) in an effort to address this theory it was helped Giuliani turn New York around in the early 90s. I guess it comes down to the basic premise if a coach looks at haircuts as a "visible sign of blight and crime." Another way to look at it is what are "small crimes" within our programs? Showing up late? Jumping the turnstile of team assignments such as filling the practice water cart or picking up the locker room? Vaping? Leaving one's game jersey hanging from the outside of their locker instead of locking it up? Getting in trouble in school? ...and then...what degree of accountability do we assign to these small crimes? Well and thats kind of my point. I don't really think of haircuts when I think about "broken windows" rules; I think of, "run off the field after practice". I mean I guess you get a little more running in, but really to what extent does "running off the field after practice" make you better? To me that is a broken window rule- it looks good, it may enforce some sort of extra discipline- but practice is over so a kid walking isn't wasting any time or improving. Now some of the 'small crimes' you listed I don't see as broken window- showing up late wastes practice time and diminishes development, getting in trouble at school can cost you your chance to play. But I think we are on similar wave lengths here about small rules. |
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Post by groundchuck on Feb 25, 2019 13:38:15 GMT -6
The best teams I have been around were teams that had self discipline. I'll give you an example. Music. A team in 2010 was told once at the start of the season to keep the music volume "low" except on Fridays after a win and no songs with foul language. Never again was this addressed because it didn't need to be. The following season I made the mistake of thinking the players would remember the example set the year before. No. We had to continually address it until we got to the point where we took the speakers away. That first team I mentioned was a joy to coach and WON games. The latter team lost games they should have won. They fought with each other, didn't listen, were not coachable.
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Post by coachcb on Feb 25, 2019 14:20:47 GMT -6
Enforcing a dress code is one thing that I can get behind. As a staff, we're required to wear black shorts/sweats and a school shirt, polo of hoody. Honestly, we were in the same hoodies four out of five practices during the week, given our weather. If we were half-rack or helmets only, the kids are required to wear their pads, practice jersey and the shorts we gave them at the beginning of the year. This goes a long way towards reinforcing attention to details and discipline on the team.
However, I don't think that trying to enforce a facial hair/hair style policy is worth the time and effort for a few reasons. One you're not talking about an attention to detail here; you're talking about enforcing uniformity which really doesn't have much carry-over to the field. Secondly, long hair styles and facial hair are far more socially acceptable these days than they were even a decade ago. It's going to be an uphill battle to tell the kids their hair needs to be cut above their ears and shave their goatees seeing as there's very few hairstyles that aren't acceptable these days.
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Post by carookie on Feb 25, 2019 14:40:57 GMT -6
The best teams I have been around were teams that had self discipline. I'll give you an example. Music. A team in 2010 was told once at the start of the season to keep the music volume "low" except on Fridays after a win and no songs with foul language. Never again was this addressed because it didn't need to be. The following season I made the mistake of thinking the players would remember the example set the year before. No. We had to continually address it until we got to the point where we took the speakers away. That first team I mentioned was a joy to coach and WON games. The latter team lost games they should have won. They fought with each other, didn't listen, were not coachable. Do you feel that "keep the music volume 'low'" is a broken window rule? Is there a reason for it other than to do it? |
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Post by newt21 on Feb 25, 2019 15:36:23 GMT -6
I do believe in the broken window rule, but I also believe that it's better to build a house with more brick and mortar than windows because there's less windows to break.
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Post by carookie on Feb 25, 2019 16:30:01 GMT -6
What window rules are worth the effort? I have known several coaches that had a "no walking off the field after practice" rule; I would consider that to be broken window. Punishment was 20 push ups on the spot for violators, wasnt much effort to enforce. |
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Post by bobgoodman on Feb 25, 2019 20:48:00 GMT -6
I worked in corrections for a number of years and will tell you that when criminals are thinking about how to not get punished for a dress code vs. how to shank a fellow inmate life is generally more pleasant. That'd be applicable in coaching if you were just trying to get players to not make trouble, but that's a very pessimistic way to look at the job! In fact it's evidence for the point that chickenshot rules are a distraction from learning the game. |
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Post by groundchuck on Feb 26, 2019 5:28:48 GMT -6
The best teams I have been around were teams that had self discipline. I'll give you an example. Music. A team in 2010 was told once at the start of the season to keep the music volume "low" except on Fridays after a win and no songs with foul language. Never again was this addressed because it didn't need to be. The following season I made the mistake of thinking the players would remember the example set the year before. No. We had to continually address it until we got to the point where we took the speakers away. That first team I mentioned was a joy to coach and WON games. The latter team lost games they should have won. They fought with each other, didn't listen, were not coachable. Do you feel that "keep the music volume 'low'" is a broken window rule? Is there a reason for it other than to do it? I think it is a symptom of whether or not kids listen the first time and remember what they are told. |
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Post by bobgoodman on Feb 26, 2019 7:40:01 GMT -6
The best teams I have been around were teams that had self discipline. I'll give you an example. Music. A team in 2010 was told once at the start of the season to keep the music volume "low" except on Fridays after a win and no songs with foul language. Never again was this addressed because it didn't need to be. The following season I made the mistake of thinking the players would remember the example set the year before. No. We had to continually address it until we got to the point where we took the speakers away. That first team I mentioned was a joy to coach and WON games. The latter team lost games they should have won. They fought with each other, didn't listen, were not coachable. Do you feel that "keep the music volume 'low'" is a broken window rule? Is there a reason for it other than to do it? I think it is a symptom of whether or not kids listen the first time and remember what they are told. I don't think it's either of those. Looks to me like there was some other change in the students from 1 yr. to the next. |
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Post by fkaboneyard on Feb 26, 2019 8:16:44 GMT -6
What window rules are worth the effort? I have known several coaches that had a "no walking off the field after practice" rule; I would consider that to be broken window. Punishment was 20 push ups on the spot for violators, wasnt much effort to enforce.
Just my opinion but I've always thought that rule is ridiculous. My agreement with the kid is that he shows up on time and gives 100% during practice and I'll do the same. Once practice is over we're off the clock. The time after our practices is typically a rich time to talk to kids - whether it's about a play/concept they're struggling with or something going on in their personal life. If they're sprinting off the field that opportunity is gone.
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Post by carookie on Feb 26, 2019 9:28:51 GMT -6
I have known several coaches that had a "no walking off the field after practice" rule; I would consider that to be broken window. Punishment was 20 push ups on the spot for violators, wasnt much effort to enforce.
Just my opinion but I've always thought that rule is ridiculous. My agreement with the kid is that he shows up on time and gives 100% during practice and I'll do the same. Once practice is over we're off the clock. The time after our practices is typically a rich time to talk to kids - whether it's about a play/concept they're struggling with or something going on in their personal life. If they're sprinting off the field that opportunity is gone.
I agree with it being silly. Just citing it as an easily enforced rule |
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Post by CanyonCoach on Feb 26, 2019 14:37:31 GMT -6
I worked in corrections for a number of years and will tell you that when criminals are thinking about how to not get punished for a dress code vs. how to shank a fellow inmate life is generally more pleasant. That'd be applicable in coaching if you were just trying to get players to not make trouble, but that's a very pessimistic way to look at the job! In fact it's evidence for the point that chickenshot rules are a distraction from learning the game. I coached in a place that needed to start at the point of: you don't steal from your teammates...so we were all about broken windows for the first month, after the criminal element was removed (self induced or otherwise) the broken window type rules nearly evaporated to nothing. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2019 7:56:12 GMT -6
One other thing when thinking about “broken window” policies... what kind of experience do you want your players to have? I think that’s an important part of coaching that we should consciously think about.
I once worked for a micromanaging principal who cited “broken window theory” as her justification for being insufferable to work for.
You had to wear a tie there and a dress shirt there. If your shirt came untucked you’d get chewed out.
Teachers weren’t allowed to sit at their desks when students were in the room. She’d patrol the hallways peaking in windows to catch “offenders.”
Running a little late? Everyone was required to be stationed outside their rooms 15 minutes before students went to class in the morning. She would watch cameras and send nasty emails to teachers who were a minute late or in the bathroom. Second offense was a formal reprimand.
Need to write up a kid? You had to be able to show 3 documented contacts with the kids parents about the behavioral issue before they’d do anything. Then you had to wait patiently while an administrator took his or her time to come to your room and escort the student away with this documentation.
Want to show a movie in class? Had to fill out a 3 page application and make a study guide, then keep it under 15 minutes and hope for approval.
Everybody had to teach the same material, follow the same lesson plans, etc.
She would hold secret meetings with small groups of students to dig up rumors on teachers not following the plans exactly. Several co-workers of mine got written up because the secret student focus groups said bad things about them.
And the whole thing backfired, for the most part. Test scores stayed flat and student behavior worsened because their teachers had so much else to focus on. About the only thing it succeeded in doing was killing morale and creating a toxic work environment that led to a lot of good teachers taking pay cuts to leave.
Do you want your players, who don’t have to play, feeling the same way about playing for you?
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