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Post by utchuckd on Jun 30, 2007 18:13:53 GMT -6
Hey option coaches how about a little input. We're installing an option game this year (midline, inside veer, outside veer) with some complements. I don't want to try to put too much in and have more than we can run well or more than we're even gonna run. So my question for you option guys is how many plays per game are options vs. other plays?
My model for this goes back to a post on Chris Brown's blog about how much passing game do you need and I'm trying to apply it to the running game as well. So for example: We're gonna run 55 plays a game, and 15 are passing so that leaves 40 run plays a game. Should we be running 50, 60, 70 percent option? If we can get an idea of how much option we will actually run I think it will help define just how much else we are gonna try to do.
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Post by tog on Jun 30, 2007 18:16:49 GMT -6
on run plays we can turn it off totally
we can turn doubles into triples
it all depends on what we are seeing and the reasons for more or less
base zone read and veer as a double though is 50% of the run game
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Post by dacoachmo on Jul 1, 2007 15:50:26 GMT -6
I have found it easy is to throw in a few simple handoff plays
SWEEP (jet,fly, or rocket)
TRAP
etc...
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Post by tog on Jul 1, 2007 20:33:32 GMT -6
kinda like mo
i guess it really depends on your kids and what they can do
how can you hurt people
if your qb can throw better then maybe up the passing % up some and do less option
if not, run more triple
if your qb is the stud--run more doubles and let him carry the ball or your next best guy
tell us about your kiddoes and your offense
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Post by utchuckd on Jul 1, 2007 20:50:04 GMT -6
tog- Good point about tweaking it to personnel. I didn't mean to make it a very specific question to us, meant to ask in general what do option teams find they get as a ratio of calling options vs. other run plays.
But to make it specific to us, we traditionally have a pretty good FB type of player, We've got one right now that should be a beast for a couple of years, so we're gonna be running a lot of midline and veer for now. QB for now is kinda smallish but quick and has a good head so we feel good about him running the show, and we've one that could be pretty good after him. The rest of our kids are generally wing/slot type guys we'll use to motion as pitch men and rocket sweepers.
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Post by tog on Jul 1, 2007 21:00:40 GMT -6
i think it HAS to be specific to each team and the talent on hand
otherwise it is just someone running "we run this no matter what" and they might be the best out there due to overwhelming talent, or they may swing back and forth year to year
coaching is putting your players in position to make players
sounds to me like a lot of midline lead
with the trail guy through the gut, or no motion at all
no need to run midline as a triple, lead that guy through, or send him off the edge and run midline off off rocket pitch
just the first things that pop out of my brain
you know your kids
and it sounds nice to have the luxury of having a beast, and two good qb's to run this kinda stuff with
also sounds like you can run some gun stuff where you can trigger the qb on the double options a little easier
just kinda depends on your comfort level on things
(i am watching navy on cstv right now and loving it btw, my favorite college team to watch)
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Post by coachdawhip on Jul 1, 2007 21:08:21 GMT -6
Also ask yourself this if you are not going to run a play 6 times agame it isn't worth it. If you are ask yourself this question next what is the counter to this play? Is it a run or a pass or both?
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coachf
Freshmen Member
Posts: 15
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Post by coachf on Jul 1, 2007 22:39:49 GMT -6
So for example: We're gonna run 55 plays a game, and 15 are passing so that leaves 40 run plays a game. Just a quick question from your post. Is 55 a random number or is it suggested that that is the normal amount run in a 48 minute game? Just for my own knowledge, thanks! To answer the question at hand - I don't know if anyone should shoot for a percentage per game. Maybe per season. I think you will find some games you run option 20% of the time, but another you will run it 80%. Just like others have said, it seems to depend on who has the hot hand, what is working, etc. We had a game last year where we ran 82 plays and 41 of them were Power. We had another game where we only ran 46 plays and 6 of them were Power. Obviously, one game our bread and butter was working. The 2nd game...well, nothing was working.  |
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Post by utchuckd on Jul 1, 2007 22:58:29 GMT -6
We don't run midline as a triple. We lead with PS wing and have BS wing on a rocket path. Would like to look at the gun stuff, but we're just starting the option this year so it's a little on down the road to work that in.
This is kind of what I'm trying to get to. Making sure we don't try to put too much in and have some things we're barely gonna run.
I think 55 is in the ballpark, but an instructor I had in college used to say you can be in the ballpark but still be out in left field. I think it's close though.
Your percentage comment makes sense. I was just wondering if anybody that runs it either has a certain goal to shoot for or finds through self scouting that they get a certain percentage consistently.
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coachf
Freshmen Member
Posts: 15
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Post by coachf on Jul 2, 2007 8:10:51 GMT -6
Your percentage comment makes sense. I was just wondering if anybody that runs it either has a certain goal to shoot for or finds through self scouting that they get a certain percentage consistently. I looked at the games that we won and see our percentage compared to the games that we lost. Typically, when we lose we tend to throw a lot and don't run our base plays as often. Obviously, when we win the percentage for base plays go up. This year my goal is to run Power 25% of the time. That seemed to be the % that we had the most success at. Well, at least if we ran it less than that we struggled. The real question is what to do when you don't reach your %. We are looking at developing some other sets that can be productive when our Power play isn't effective. I pay attention to the % only when we are struggling and I feel like we can't get any consistency on offense. If I planned on running something 25% of the time and I have gone 3 series without running it, I am probably trying to force in something we aren't good at. |
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Post by utchuckd on Jul 2, 2007 9:01:33 GMT -6
Amen brother!
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Post by spreadattack on Jul 2, 2007 12:38:50 GMT -6
I think you go for a target yearly percentage, and then in a given game you just adjust it. Same with tog too I think you kind of pick a baseline for your bread and butter stuff. Like you said, you do the zone read stuff about 50%, though at the end of the day it is team and game specific. I look at it as kind of your equilbrium amount, and then you adjust per opponent/your own team.
The other point someone made is good. Installing the option is a huge commitment, while installing a jet or dive handoff is not really so much. In terms of how much option, I always have been a believer that you don't need 5 different types of the triple, nor the triple plus a bunch of gadgets or "called plays" where you don't read the dive back or you know you're going to pitch or X/Y/Z. I think if you install the triple, you run the triple and you don't need to goof around with it so much (this is both from gun or under center, though if you do the zone-read gun, as I've explained, it isn't quite as systematically designed to defeat the defense so you have to be more on your toes with playcalling).
I come from a particular background, but I've always felt that if you can install the inside veer (splitbacks or I or some other set) you can rep the outside veer simply enough against a team that calls for it, and then have enough other "stuff" (sweep, Iso, jet, trap, maybe counter) to get by pretty well. You don't need a lot of other stuff.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 2, 2007 15:10:16 GMT -6
From a defensive point of view--If you are going to run a good deal of option, then I would recommend simply selling out and running a TON of option. If you run enough option to be pretty good at it, then chances are defenses will practice against it enough to stop it unless you really dive in and go full bore--complete with changing the perimeter blocking assignments and leading/loading to keep the defense from being able to play the same responsibilities each snap.
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Post by kcbazooka on Jul 2, 2007 19:13:13 GMT -6
% question is interesting - have done some self study and when we were best we ran our base four running plays 85% of our runs. When we added stuff and got too fancy we usually didn't do as well.
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Post by optioncoach on Jul 2, 2007 22:05:35 GMT -6
I posted this on another message board:
Here is our breakdown which is probably more that anyone wanted to know. IV was our base play with OV and midline used as teams adjusted to IV. Unlike previous years, we did not have a called dive or called option, so all of these were actual read plays. As you can see, we saw a lot of 4-3 defense. Only one of them (week 5 opponent) played with a 3 and 9 tech on the TE side. All the other 4-3 teams used a 3-7 on the strong side or went to an 52 Eagle look with a 3-5 tech on the weakside, and a shade, 5 or 4, and 9 on the strong side.
Game one (vs. variable 5-3 defense): 22 of 57 (47 run/10 pass)...(17 IV, 5 OV)...47% of run plays, 39% total plays
Game two (vs. 4-3/5-2 Eagle): 28 of 48 (40 run/ 8 pass)...(14 IV, 2 OV, 12 midline)...70% of run plays, 58% total plays
Game three (vs. Base 5-2): 25 of 52 (39 run/ 13 pass)...(17 IV, 8 OV)...64% of run plays, 48% total plays
Game four (vs. 4-3): 14 of 46 (37 run/ 9 pass)...(9 IV, 2 OV, 3 midline)...38%of run plays, 30% total plays
Game five (vs. 4-3): 24 of 51 (43 run/ 8 pass)...(12 IV, 8 OV, 4 midline)...56%of run plays, 47% total plays
Game six (vs. 4-3): 15 of 43 (25 run/ 18 pass)...(12 IV, 3 midline)...60% of run plays, 35% total plays
Game seven (vs. 4-4 Stack): 20 of 72 (49 run/ 23 pass)...(20 IV)...41% of run plays, 28% total plays
Game eight (vs. 4-3/5-2 Eagle): 39 of 65 (60 run/ 5 pass)...(19 IV, 13 OV, 7 midline)...65% of run plays, 60% total plays
Game nine (vs. 4-4): 22 of 46 (42 run/4 pass)...(10 IV, 12 midline)...52% of run plays, 48% total plays
Season Totals:
209 (130 IV, 38 OV, 41 Midline) of 480 total plays...55% of run plays, 44% of total plays
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Post by wingman on Jul 2, 2007 22:38:15 GMT -6
Option Coach. I am very interested in this type of post. What is a variable 5-3? We see a lot of 5-3 that is 9 on the TE, DT and St.LBer stack on strong tackle. Nose and Mac stacked on strongside shoulder on the Center. Weakside DT in 3 on guard's outside shoulder. Weak Lber in B gap and weakside DE a yard outside tackle. What would you favor offhand? We're looking at Midline and OV strong, IV and speed option weak. thoughts?
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Post by optioncoach on Jul 3, 2007 6:41:49 GMT -6
wingman: Variable just meant they gave us a lot of different looks. They gave us some bear front, sometimes they gave us the look you described, smetimes, they reduced the strongside DT to a 3 tech. In retrospect, we should have run alot more OV and less IV. They knew we were going to run IV a bunch, so they were more inside conscious. Another play we should have run more, especially when they were in their Bear look is quickpitch.
I think OV strong is definately the first play choice. We also like lead option strong (we block it just like OV anyway) with a crack back on the first stack. You should be able to run midline to the 3 tech side as well. I know I shouldn't let the defense dictate to me where I run it, but I would rather not run IV at the 3 tech if I don't have to. But with them reduced on the weakside, you do need to attack them in the ally somehow.
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Post by utchuckd on Jul 3, 2007 8:14:43 GMT -6
Good point. We're gonna run midline, ISV, and OSV and read 'em all. Sometimes I just have to keep reminding myself that the veer is virtually a series by itself and doesn't need as many counters and misdirections. Good advice. I've seen this with teams we've faced. option coach- thanks for the breakdown. Looks like what others have said it can vary week to week. wingman- how about a slant weakside? Oh wait, this is an option post, sorry.  |
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Post by touchdowng on Jul 3, 2007 8:58:32 GMT -6
Years ago when I coached the flexbone I was lucky enough to have the old Oregon State staff available as a resource. However, the best advice I EVER received was when I placed a call to the QB coach at Air Force (I want to say he was also the OC but I'm not 100% sure), Paul Hamilton.
We had about a 30 minute conversation and the statement that resonates with me to this day was, "Coach, a lot of people say they run the option and that's fine, but my personal belief is you either RUN the option or you get your A$$ kicked trying to run the option - you either do it or you don't."
We put over 80% of our offensive practice time working on all phases of our option. The result was over 350 yard per game on the ground. A time advantage of 30 minutes on offense to our opponents 18 minutes.
I once went into our offensive huddle in a tight game. It was 3rd and 15 and I asked my OLINE what they thought would be the best play. Our senior center said, "Coach - 12 veer!"
We ran our triple option right and took it to the house. Our kids believed in option football because it's what we preached from sun up to sun down.
Y
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Post by tog on Jul 3, 2007 9:01:21 GMT -6
wingman: Variable just meant they gave us a lot of different looks. They gave us some bear front, sometimes they gave us the look you described, smetimes, they reduced the strongside DT to a 3 tech. In retrospect, we should have run alot more OV and less IV. They knew we were going to run IV a bunch, so they were more inside conscious. Another play we should have run more, especially when they were in their Bear look is quickpitch. I think OV strong is definately the first play choice. We also like lead option strong (we block it just like OV anyway) with a crack back on the first stack. You should be able to run midline to the 3 tech side as well. I know I shouldn't let the defense dictate to me where I run it, but I would rather not run IV at the 3 tech if I don't have to. But with them reduced on the weakside, you do need to attack them in the ally somehow. how and why did it change each game? what were the circumstances? |
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Post by optioncoach on Jul 3, 2007 23:45:50 GMT -6
Tog: do you mean why was the option a bigger percentage of our total plays one week, but a smaller percentage the next? Alot of it had to do with if we got behind and were forced to throw the ball more than we wanted to. And the numbers I posted were just inside veer, outside veer, and midline. We also ran speed/lead option a considerable amount, and every run play (except Iso) was based on some reaction defenses were giving us to our 3 base plays. About half of our pass plays on the year were play action off of the IV. If I added trap, quick pitch, counter dive, and play action (even our reverse and other "exotics" are based off the veer)...well, thats our whole offense minus 3 step drop and sprint out pass.
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Post by wingman on Jul 4, 2007 14:50:22 GMT -6
optioncoach ( if this isn't Don H. ) did you ever run a trap option or option where you faked a dive one way and pulled the guard from that side to the other side as you optioned the QB/and Pitch away from the dive?
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Post by tog on Jul 4, 2007 16:45:58 GMT -6
Tog: do you mean why was the option a bigger percentage of our total plays one week, but a smaller percentage the next? Alot of it had to do with if we got behind and were forced to throw the ball more than we wanted to. And the numbers I posted were just inside veer, outside veer, and midline. We also ran speed/lead option a considerable amount, and every run play (except Iso) was based on some reaction defenses were giving us to our 3 base plays. About half of our pass plays on the year were play action off of the IV. If I added trap, quick pitch, counter dive, and play action (even our reverse and other "exotics" are based off the veer)...well, thats our whole offense minus 3 step drop and sprint out pass. option thanks for the response yeah, that was my main thinking on it, but that made me think of this lol how "even" were your backs? was there one guy that teams were trying to take away over the others? how did the personnel you had available make you tinker with your philosophy going in to the season, and then how did each team you play affect it? |
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Post by optioncoach on Jul 4, 2007 22:23:40 GMT -6
They were very even. One was a little faster than the other, one was a little bigger, but other than that, they were very similar. Alot of split back teams will flip their HBs, but we don't.
We have been a veer team for several years, but always from the "I". The fact that both the backs were about the same was a factor, but what I really wanted was to even out the carries. Since we give it on the option about 80%, and we run IV/OV and midline more than anything else, our FB carries the ball alot. So instead of a FB carrying it 20-25 times, and the TB 10 times, they both averaged 15-16.
I couldn't see anyone focusing on stopping one back over the other. They each had their own uniqueness, one was better on the quick pitch, one was better on the trap, and that dictated play calling to an extent. Going in, I felt we were going to be a grind it out type team, and we were.
I'm a coach that looks heavily at personel from year to year to determine philosophy. This next year, neither of our probable HBs is going to be great on the edge as a pitch man. LAst year, both were fine as the pitchman. So, we're looking at using motions and other adjustments to put a fast kid in a position where we can pitch it to him, but not have to use him as a dive back, which the others will be fine for.
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