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Post by cwaltsmith on Dec 13, 2018 10:57:19 GMT -6
There is a play calling thread here that has turned into a thread about this so I thought id make a new one...
I believe total and complete vertical alignment is the best way to go to help a program if its possible. I understand as some have said that it isnt possible in some places. In other places its legal but not possible because the high school doesnt have control of the middle school...
My question is this... what is the most important thing to vertical align...
IS IT...
Play names and terminology or,
Drill work or,
what is it??? if you could only align 1 thing what would it be
I have been in places where the middle school coach doesnt think the middle school kids can run the offense the high school uses for whatever reason. So if you cant convince or cant legally do it as a whole... what area would you want to try to influence to better prepare your incoming freshmen?
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Post by carookie on Dec 13, 2018 12:32:39 GMT -6
Technique! This somewhat fits with drill work, but specifically its technique (assuming the lower level guys can teach it correctly).
I like to keep terminology the same, but if one year I call a play "Dash" and the next season call it "Jet" that tends to not be an issue. But seeing as we are what we repeatedly do, then having players be proficient at required skill sets then we will be better off.
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Post by MICoach on Dec 13, 2018 13:15:02 GMT -6
I'd say technique and whatever your "bread and butter" is. We run power, we absolutely expect the middle school to run power and hopefully counter. Our defense is 3-4 C3 base, they expect the defense to have that as a base. Don't care what they call it. The school down the road runs veer, all of their levels get taught veer.
Technique is something I wish I could push a little more on with the lower levels. Their coaches come to some of our team camp and early practices to get drill ideas and technique tips. Most years they'll ask some questions about a couple things and my assumption is they try to put it in place, but I'm not at their practices so I can't say for sure beyond knowing they have picked up the dead snap, which I can see from a sideline of their games.
If our freshmen show up knowing where to be on our top run play I'm happy, doesn't usually happen (as mentioned in the other thread, 13 year old kids forget stuff in a day or two, they don't obsess like we do).
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Post by CoachMikeJudy on Dec 13, 2018 13:25:02 GMT -6
There is a play calling thread here that has turned into a thread about this so I thought id make a new one... I believe total and complete vertical alignment is the best way to go to help a program if its possible. I understand as some have said that it isnt possible in some places. In other places its legal but not possible because the high school doesnt have control of the middle school... My question is this... what is the most important thing to vertical align... IS IT... Play names and terminology or, Drill work or, what is it??? if you could only align 1 thing what would it be I have been in places where the middle school coach doesnt think the middle school kids can run the offense the high school uses for whatever reason. So if you cant convince or cant legally do it as a whole... what area would you want to try to influence to better prepare your incoming freshmen? Drill work/technique Its easier to teach a kid terminology, as that can be done year round without sweat equity, than to have a kid learn footwork or technique for 2yrs in middle school then have to wholesale change their movement patterns when they get to 9th grade. I know that our middle school can't run our offense or defense verbatim...and I have no problem with that. But IF they are running inside zone, I expect that their technique mimics ours- so that a kid comes in as a 9th grade running back and has a basic understanding and technique of how we run it. If they run guard trap, they can do what they want because we don't run it. Same thing defensively- we're a 4-2-5...they're a 5-3 because that's A) what they know how to coach B) what they believe in C) successful against what they see from opponent offenses. All I ask is they get the kids to me and they love to hit, run to the ball, and love football. |
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Post by dblwngr on Dec 13, 2018 14:38:00 GMT -6
I agree with technique 1st and foremost.
More than anything, tackling technique. As our Dcord, I usually schedule a day to go to the middle school and take over their defensive practice for tackling progression. I like the idea of having the coaches see it in action as well as having a chance to connect with the kids/coaches and let them see my face.
I couldn't care less about the scheme they run. I've seen lots of local coaches drive their schemes down the middle school coaches throat only to change what they are doing by the time those kids get to the high school.
On the offensive side, we give the coaches a handful of your base plays along with an open door to any questions that they may have as the season goes on.
Like the coach in the above post mentioned, it's much more important that the kids have fun and have a good experience. If not, we'll lose them to soccer, chess club, video games at home, or they'll just be another one of the many kids we see walking through the halls that SHOULD be playing but aren't for what ever reason.
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Post by junior6589 on Dec 13, 2018 17:19:06 GMT -6
I think it sometimes depends on the type of scheme. If you are running the Wing-T at the HS level, I think running a basic Wing-T at the younger levels really helps those kids when they get to high school.
If you have a spread or pro system, then I say technique.
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Post by 53 on Dec 13, 2018 19:07:18 GMT -6
That they like football and know how to work hard.
Anything else is a plus. But I’m big in always staring out every year like the kids don’t know anything and then build from there.
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 13, 2018 19:20:59 GMT -6
The most important part of vertical alignment would be program expectations and player retention, followed by strength program. Understanding what it means to be a ________(insert school mascot) and instilling the desire to be a _______(insert school mascot) on Friday nights, then working to do so.
I see so many coaches bemoaning the fact that 13 year olds aren't using the same words, or lining up the same, running the same plays or whatever... I think those guys are completely missing the boat.
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Post by badtotheflexbone on Dec 14, 2018 2:39:53 GMT -6
To add, would you rather a kid come with a blank slate or been taught and repped bad techniques for two years?
For me, I think to instill the love of the game and desire to work to get better are #1 & #2 respectively
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Post by Coach Vint on Dec 14, 2018 13:31:54 GMT -6
It all must be vertically aligned. From how we stretch to what we install, to how we teach it and drill it, to buzz words, to off-season, to grade checks. Everything is aligned. When they get to us they already know the system. We are 100% aligned with our feeders. Those coaches know the expectations. The coordinators and head coach are assigned to their campus during their athletic period. They learn it from the bottom to the top.
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 14, 2018 19:03:18 GMT -6
It all must be vertically aligned. From how we stretch to what we install, to how we teach it and drill it, to buzz words, to off-season, to grade checks. Everything is aligned. When they get to us they already know the system. We are 100% aligned with our feeders. Those coaches know the expectations. The coordinators and head coach are assigned to their campus during their athletic period. They learn it from the bottom to the top. I will disagree with the word "must" here. I think it falls more under the "why not, if you can" umbrella than "we need to do this" since countless teams have achieved great success without any alignment of programs below Frosh. Sure, it doesn't hurt, but I don't think you will win championships in 2023 because 7th graders lined up in your "bronco front" in 2018 as opposed to someone else's "Jaguar Front" or because they ran bucksweep a couple of hundred times. |
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Post by bobgoodman on Dec 15, 2018 12:55:22 GMT -6
I believe total and complete vertical alignment is the best way to go to help a program if its possible. I understand as some have said that it isnt possible in some places. In other places its legal but not possible because the high school doesnt have control of the middle school... I have been in places where the middle school coach doesnt think the middle school kids can run the offense the high school uses for whatever reason. So if you cant convince or cant legally do it as a whole... Is there some explanation in that other thread, or by you, as to how it can be illegal? I take it there's nothing against the public laws of the state about it!? So then is it something about the rules of the athletic ass'n intended to stop unfair recruiting by restricting the activity with younger children by staff of a member institution? Or restricting the flow of $ to prevent a farm system from developing? |
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Post by bobgoodman on Dec 15, 2018 12:58:43 GMT -6
What if they teach good, but different, technique?
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Post by cwaltsmith on Dec 17, 2018 8:05:19 GMT -6
I believe total and complete vertical alignment is the best way to go to help a program if its possible. I understand as some have said that it isnt possible in some places. In other places its legal but not possible because the high school doesnt have control of the middle school... I have been in places where the middle school coach doesnt think the middle school kids can run the offense the high school uses for whatever reason. So if you cant convince or cant legally do it as a whole... Is there some explanation in that other thread, or by you, as to how it can be illegal? I take it there's nothing against the public laws of the state about it!? So then is it something about the rules of the athletic ass'n intended to stop unfair recruiting by restricting the activity with younger children by staff of a member institution? Or restricting the flow of $ to prevent a farm system from developing? In the other thread some guys from California said it would be considered recruiting and be illegal in their state |
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Post by Coach Vint on Dec 17, 2018 10:15:18 GMT -6
It all must be vertically aligned. From how we stretch to what we install, to how we teach it and drill it, to buzz words, to off-season, to grade checks. Everything is aligned. When they get to us they already know the system. We are 100% aligned with our feeders. Those coaches know the expectations. The coordinators and head coach are assigned to their campus during their athletic period. They learn it from the bottom to the top. I will disagree with the word "must" here. I think it falls more under the "why not, if you can" umbrella than "we need to do this" since countless teams have achieved great success without any alignment of programs below Frosh. Sure, it doesn't hurt, but I don't think you will win championships in 2023 because 7th graders lined up in your "bronco front" in 2018 as opposed to someone else's "Jaguar Front" or because they ran bucksweep a couple of hundred times. We will have to agree to disagree. If my district opponents are running the same system in 7th and 8th grade and I am letting my junior high coaches do whatever they want, the opponents have an advantage. Their kids are not learning the system from scratch. Three years ago we played the #1 team in the state in the 2nd round of the playoffs. We were in our firs year here and their staff was in their 10th. Their kids run the same system from their youth football leagues through junior high, all the way to the varsity level. It showed. The longer you learn a system, the more you coach the details and adjustments. We will have a better chance of winning state in 2023 because our middle school kids are doing things our way. If they do it another way we will not have as good of a chance. This year our 9th grade kids were in year three of the system. They started learning in 7th grade. Day one they knew how we stretched, and they could line up and run our base offense. Of course we didn't run everything from day one. Our freshmen coaches followed the frosh install schedule. Every year kids learn your system and run your stuff with your terminology, the more you are ahead when they are playing at the varsity level. |
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Post by 53 on Dec 17, 2018 10:17:19 GMT -6
I wonder how many schools would actually be running the same offense or defense though from a kid being in 3rd or 4th grade till being a senior.
It just doesn't seem like the juice is worth the squeeze, unless it's a special circumstance
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Post by Coach Vint on Dec 17, 2018 10:18:58 GMT -6
What if they teach good, but different, technique? What if they were teaching a great wrong arm technique, but our defense boxed everything? They are learning good technique, but is it our technique? Is it what we do in our defense? We want them to learn our drills and our technique so we don't have to reteach that to them. |
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Post by CanyonCoach on Dec 17, 2018 10:29:38 GMT -6
3 years ago we went through the process of going system wide grades 3-12. It would be misleading to say that every step is a master piece but some phases have really helped coaches who have bought in and some phases have required we part ways with coaches/board directors and even boosters on occasion. It has been a huge process and we are still evolving. How do you measure success? 1. player retention 2. coach retention 3. parent support-- feed back-- if mom loves the program you are winning! And no you are not going to make everyone happy 4. community support- Football Focus- Grades 3-4= Block/Tackle/have fun!--- one formation- 6 run plays 2 pass plays--5-3 defense-coaches discretion Grades 5-6= Block/Tackle/pursue to the ball/have fun- must be in 21 personnel- 10 run plays 6 pass plays- 5-3 coaches discretion Grades 7-8= Block/Tackle/pursue to the ball/have fun winning- Each coach has access to the full HS play-book and then is advised to choose 2 blocking schemes Grade 9= moved to practice with the varsity this past season...lumps and the bubble grade (for what ever reason one class in every four has a huge dip in numbers) Read more: coachhuey.com/thread/83152/same-systems-varsity-youth-level?page=1#ixzz5ZxY2i9k6 |
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Post by 60zgo on Dec 17, 2018 18:42:41 GMT -6
The best place I ever coached wasn't even vertically aligned from fresh to jv to varsity. We could have beat the brakes off most of the teams in Texas during that span...
Vertical alignment is a little over-hyped. It's an excuse. "Oh if the jr high just ran our sharknado offense we could beat our rival." It helps at certain size programs where you have huge sub-varsity rosters and the ego of the varsity coaches demand conformity and compliance. Mid to small level schools have too much variance. I think the technique/verbiage angle is valid, but this also assumes you will be at a place for at least 4-5 years. That seems to be getting harder and harder to do.
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Post by carookie on Dec 17, 2018 19:22:07 GMT -6
The best place I ever coached wasn't even vertically aligned from fresh to jv to varsity. We could have beat the brakes off most of the teams in Texas during that span... Vertical alignment is a little over-hyped. It's an excuse. "Oh if the jr high just ran our sharknado offense we could beat our rival." It helps at certain size programs where you have huge sub-varsity rosters and the ego of the varsity coaches demand conformity and compliance. Mid to small level schools have too much variance. I think the technique/verbiage angle is valid, but this also assumes you will be at a place for at least 4-5 years. That seems to be getting harder and harder to do. I agree its overhyped for average to bigger schools (those who have legit Frosh or JV teams). But for those of us at smaller schools (where sometimes half of our varsity roster is underclassmen) it plays a part. When I am at a school that has a frosh team, a JV team, and an additional 50+ upperclassmen, I could care less what the local MS runs. However, for us small school folks who have to lean on a few freshman, and a lot of sophomores, to fill out a varsity roster vertical alignment helps. Essentially, the Jr. High becomes like a JV team; prepping those who will be varsity contributors next year so that they can hit the ground running....somewhat. |
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Post by 42falcon on Dec 17, 2018 20:32:56 GMT -6
I think as mentioned above is key: "However, for us small school folks who have to lean on a few freshman, and a lot of sophomores, to fill out a varsity roster vertical alignment helps."
We are having the same struggle at our place right now. We have a good sized JV team aprox 40-60 kids on a given year with 40-50 at the SR level. We are not vertically aligned and it seems like each season we are bantering back and forth about this. It dawned on me this year when talking with a grade 11 kid. He is a good player, has experience played youth all the way on up, worked hard in the off season program. BUT he was not good for us we expected more. He said to me SR was a big jump because the game was faster, the defense more complex. He said at the JV level they run what that community team ran because we get some coaches from there. So he didn't need to learn anything new he just walked in and played. Then with us he had to learn from scratch and play at a higher faster level.
So..... we are back around the bend again on the vertical alignment...
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Post by carookie on Dec 17, 2018 21:43:09 GMT -6
I think as mentioned above is key: "However, for us small school folks who have to lean on a few freshman, and a lot of sophomores, to fill out a varsity roster vertical alignment helps." We are having the same struggle at our place right now. We have a good sized JV team aprox 40-60 kids on a given year with 40-50 at the SR level. We are not vertically aligned and it seems like each season we are bantering back and forth about this. It dawned on me this year when talking with a grade 11 kid. He is a good player, has experience played youth all the way on up, worked hard in the off season program. BUT he was not good for us we expected more. He said to me SR was a big jump because the game was faster, the defense more complex. He said at the JV level they run what that community team ran because we get some coaches from there. So he didn't need to learn anything new he just walked in and played. Then with us he had to learn from scratch and play at a higher faster level. So..... we are back around the bend again on the vertical alignment... Your JV doesnt do the same stuff as your varsity? |
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Post by dblwngr on Dec 18, 2018 12:02:04 GMT -6
"Oh if the jr high just ran our sharknado offense we could beat our rival." Got any links or DVD sets of this cutting edge system? It may be a little out dated but I'd be willing to trade our inovative, rpo, half a$$ huddle, Facemelter collection. |
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Post by 60zgo on Dec 18, 2018 12:08:26 GMT -6
"Oh if the jr high just ran our sharknado offense we could beat our rival." Got any links or DVD sets of this cutting edge system? It may be a little out dated but I'd be willing to trade our inovative, rpo, half a$$ huddle, Facemelter collection. No DVD. You have to go to the clinic and pay mega $$$. |
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Post by CanyonCoach on Dec 18, 2018 19:02:17 GMT -6
So here are the big things:
Defensive alignment- we tell them generically it is a 5-3= but we start teaching them our defensive numbering system (O, 1, 2i, 2, 3 etc..) starting in 56th grade they can be in a 202/404/505, and then in 7/8th grade they can start to vary the front using our numbering system. In 9th grade they can add blitzes and twists/stunts but we are building the
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Post by 42falcon on Dec 18, 2018 20:33:29 GMT -6
I think as mentioned above is key: "However, for us small school folks who have to lean on a few freshman, and a lot of sophomores, to fill out a varsity roster vertical alignment helps." We are having the same struggle at our place right now. We have a good sized JV team aprox 40-60 kids on a given year with 40-50 at the SR level. We are not vertically aligned and it seems like each season we are bantering back and forth about this. It dawned on me this year when talking with a grade 11 kid. He is a good player, has experience played youth all the way on up, worked hard in the off season program. BUT he was not good for us we expected more. He said to me SR was a big jump because the game was faster, the defense more complex. He said at the JV level they run what that community team ran because we get some coaches from there. So he didn't need to learn anything new he just walked in and played. Then with us he had to learn from scratch and play at a higher faster level. So..... we are back around the bend again on the vertical alignment... Your JV doesnt do the same stuff as your varsity? No that has been a big bone of contention for us. One of the big differences up here in Canada is that we are not directly paid / hired to coach. It is in our contract as teachers. As an example a teacher with 10+ years experience makes 100K+ and the expectation is you are coaching / running the school play / clubs etc. In our case it is coach. So the nice part is there is job security regardless of how jimmy plays on Friday night but the downside is I can't tell anyone what to do. It has taken 5+ years to get more football coaches hired and now we are at a point where we can start to slide guys around. |
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