5 wide on offense, why not more??

I didnt have a stud at QB either.. and probably wont again this year..

I only had 1 decent receiver.. and he caught 69 passes.. the rest were just kids who could settle in space and would catch the ball "most" of the time we threw it to them.. had NO deep threat players this year.. I will this coming year at a differnet school though..

I had probably the worst line in the country.. and against the best team in our district.. my QB was sacked twice.. all about the sprint out..

5 wide doesnt have to be ALL about the pass.. we run Jet Sweep and speed option.. plus a few plays for the QB.. put a bigger athlete at QB late in the game.. motion someone across the formation to kick the end and run a single wing power play..

because that 3 yard bubble could be 1 and done.. 1 missed tackle could lead to a TD.. that 3 yard run has to go through a lot of meat to score.

In my state (Louisiana) 3 out of 5 of the state champs were spread teams who threw the ball a lot. And with Louisiana being one of the top football states in the country.. I would venture to say my state champ would kick your state champs butt

What does Urban Meyer (2006 champ) or Les Miles (2007 champ) do when they are in a bind??? Urban spreads them out and runs his monster.. and Les spread them out in a 4x1 tackle over and throws to the uncovered TE.. No I there..

You dont have to ask your QB to read coverages and look off defenders.. put those defenders in a bind.. make it an easy read..

Its not all about the slant.. the slant is good in certain situations.. but only when they beg you to run it..

I think you prove my personal opinion on why not more people run it.. people just do not understand it.. they assume its a throw it every down with a super QB who has to read and make perfect decisions while hiding behind he NFL quality Oline..

Our system is put a great athlete at QB and attack the defense with him.. and allow him to dink and dunk it to open guys if the defense allows that..

Honestly?
I don't think you'll ever agree, but....
I'm a clock guy. It's important to my philosophy of football. I don't want it stopped.

Weather, sure Louisiana rain is one thing, but have you ever tried to throw a ball in 38 degree rainy weather with a 25 mile per hour wind? We play in that.

Physical play. Our kids are two way players. I don't want them to learn to be soft on offense and aggressive on defense. Say what you want, but passing the ball does not generate the same mentality about your teams physical play as running the ball down their throats.

Finally, we all run what we believe in. Arguments you make about the spread I can make about the option. (don't need superior talent, take what they give you, spread the ball around, big play opportunity, etc...)

Please understand that by compete, I do not mean a chance to win the game.. but rather a chance to get in there and have the will and thought of winning..

in previous years.. while running the Wing-T.. the games were MUCH worse..

we took a team down to the wire this year and lost 28-20 after being tied with 6 mins left.. this same team beat them 61-0 the year before.

So you tell me.. did the passing game help make it more of a game this year? I dont know.. but it allowed our players to know they had a chance for success.. even if it were only offensive success..

The team we actually beat.. they lost to the year before 36-0..


From a psychological stand point.. what is more demoralizing?? Running the ball 3 plays and failing to get a first down because they are BETTER than you.. or throwing the ball 3 times and not completing any?

Sure, but you have to punt the ball.. but running the ball can be demoralizing on either side.. if you can run through people then it will lift you up.. but if you run into a wall every play.. then where does that send team spirits?? probably to a 61-0 loss to a team who is probably not that much better than you.

The two other 1 win teams.. well.. UCP.. much better group of kids than ours.. cant say better team.. because they were very unorganized and not very well coached.. but they had better athletes at every position..

they other.. probably my fault.. if I would have taken a better approach that early in the season we might have won the game.. but to their credit.. or I guess discredit.. they had a wonderful QB.. and 2 outstanding receivers.. still not sure how they did so bad on the season..


All and all.. defense is a differnet story.. you cant control what the offense does.. if they are better.. and decide they are going to run it down your throat.. or throw it past your slow defenders.. then they are just going to do that..

but on offense.. I can pick and choose where we get killed.. they want to bring 6 every play (haynesville) then we can find ways to avoid that.. spring away.. run screens.. so on and so forth..

I'm sorry but I don't understand coaches always saying "The team that beat us 36 to 0 last year, we beat them this year so we are better."

Did both teams have the same coaches, same personnel, and did the other team keep the same system? If not, then using it as a measurement of progression is wrong.

Maybe the coach from that team remembered beating up on your school and decided to skip practice that week, who knows. You can't use what you did last year vs X team if X team has changed at all this year.

We can sit here and talk scheme all day long and whoever posts last will win.

Sure you can measure them.. who gave you the ultimate power to say you cant? Its about productivity.. the arguement was based on throwing the ball prolonging the game and making the score of a bad game even worse.. well.. we took the same group of kids who could not score on these teams and actually had a chance to win one and did win the other.. where as they didnt even score the year before..

Why wouldn't I run 5 wide 100% of the time?

I like backfield faking too much. Lateral faking, play action faking, jet sweep faking, toss sweep faking, fake passes (draws), etc. Having at least one running back back there with your QB.

The other reason is I like FBs/TEs and H-Backs. No one would confuse me with a power O guy, but I like guys who, by moving them around, instantly change the strength of your formation and can improve your run blocking ankles/leverage and pass protection. I like motioning an H-back or TE back and forth to change the strength of the formation, I like motioning an H-back to offset fullback to kick out the DE, or motioning a receiver down to seal the backside DE while I pull the guard and tackle.

I know you can do that from spread sets, but to me (maybe a simplistic view) if you're doing those things you're not a true 5-wide team.

And last, I like some degree of specialization. Through faking, good ball handling, and putting kids in position to win I can spring running backs on traps, draws, etc. I just find the RB position rather useful. It's not a philosophy thing really.

NO, you took the same group of kis who could not score on LAST years teams....



against LAST years teams...

That is his point.

He doesnt know LAST years teams.. maybe I only include those two because maybe only those two had 90% of their team back from last year..

The same arguement could be made for the Haynesville game. Haynesville lost like 3 seniors on their team from a year ago.. had something like 10 returning starters on defense..

From watching film.. they held the team to a mere 50 yards of total offense a year ago.. so is it not fair to assume that the 5 wide offense attributed to a betterment considering we gained just under 300 yards of total offense and scored 3 tds on virtually the same team?? with 2 being against their starters.. and another 2 times we were inside their 20?

LAST years team was LAST years team. Period. The 365 days between the two games make it impossible to compare. Off season training, practices, dedication, graduation, new players,new coaches, new teaching methods, the mental development and maturity of adolescents, the PHYSICAL development of adolescents.... nah...none of that matter? I would argue they have a great deal more to do with the game than a change in scheme.

isn't the "LAST YEAR" comment a point-of-reference, not a literal comparison?

Using the "LAST YEAR" contrast to completely discount any scheme logic is a gross over-exaggeration.

For me, I would say you don't see a lot of 5-wide offenses because the following perceptions exist:

1. It's not diverse enough. When you run out of answers, you're stuck. People crap on the standard "21" personnel offenses quite a bit for being plain and "too common," but those offenses give you TRUE balance, and that's the reason why they're so "common." You can pound the crap out of the rock if you need to with multiple run schemes (triple option, power, misdirection, zone, etc.), or you can throw any variety of passing attack at a defense (3 step, 5 step, screens, rollouts, waggles, etc.) with relative simplicity. You can predict defensive alignments and you can scheme to take advantage of them. You don't have that level of diversity in a 5-wide offense.

2.There's not enough motivation out there for teams to get into it. Despite everyone saying "TE's and FB's are going away" it's not true, and it is a self-fufulling prophecy. What I mean is kind of what others have said, which is "if I'm going to switch, WHY am I going to switch and HOW am I going to switch?" Is the answer to WHY going to be "well, I don't have any backs this year." Well, again, that's a huge change to make to your traditional offense just because THIS YEAR you don't have any backs. I think most coaches are willing to "tweak" their existing offense to make up for the fact that they may not have the desired personnel rather than make a wholesale change. Also, HOW is difficult, because coaches these days don't take a crap without coming out on the board and getting 150 playbooks, game film, the latest DVD's etc...and since there isn't a TON of stuf available to coaches along these lines, they're much less likely to want to run it.

3. The system is too dependant upon one athlete, in most coaches minds. Why do you want to risk everything on the success of the QB position? What if you have crappy backups? What if you have lesser-talented QB's for a couple of seasons? I mean, no matter what anyone says...I really can't imagine ANY other offensive personnel set being more dependant upon the performance of one player. People always say "U cain't run da I-formation without a great TB" but that's not nearly as true as "U cain't run a 5-wide passing system without a great QB."

4. If you don't have an answer for certain defensive adjustments, you're dead. It's like being a Power-I 2 TE team. If a defense throws 9+ in the box and you can't run because they have you whipped that night, you are not balanced enough to make an adjustment and go to something else. Same with the 5-wide. If they just cover you up and your QB can't complete a pass to save his soul...where else are you going to hide? Other more "traditional" offenses have answers that are more simple to prepare and execute.

5. It takes away from the "toughness" and "special uniqueness" that football is supposed to be about. I myself am very guilty of this perception. If I want to watch a bunch of selfish athletes running around and catching passes flying through the air, I'll go to a basketball game. I think some people (and again, I am guilty of this...right or wrong) feel that football is about "bigger picture" stuff, and the traditions and philosophy and mindset of tough in your face style of play is more important than getting every athlete in school to want to come out and play football. I'm not saying that this is TRUE, I'm just saying that people like me find it difficult to change that way of thinking...and that is another reason why you don't see 5-wide football all over the place.

Again these are just the PERCEPTIONS that exist from what I see as to why coaches do not want to get into an offense like that. I may not agree with all of them (or, maybe I do), but that's what it is.

Again, if a coach can't justify WHY they are making such a radical change and HOW they are going to make it, they aren't likely to proceede. Those questions are tougher to answer with 5-WR offense than they might be for an I team to transition to Wing-T or a flexbone team to transition to a 3 or 4 WR gun spread concept, etc.

here is what I have learned by being a passing coach and have run 3,4 and 5 wide spread offenses.

IT IS THE COACHES. When you throw the ball you have to understand things and you have recognize that when the QB makes a read, you have no control over that.

now if you run the ball the QB turns around and hands off the ball to the back you want him to and runs the play you want them to. Therefore, you control the game.

In the run game I liken true option coaches to being most like the passing game. True option guys let the QB pitch the ball and let them make the initial QB/fb read. they will pitch the ball on their own 10 yd line and pitch the ball on the 10 yd line going in. I am not a option coach but nothing i dislike more is fake option teams.

MOST COACHES BY NATURE ARE INSECURE AND CONTROL FREAKS. THEY PLAY NOT TO LOSE THE GAME INSTEAD OF PLAYING TO WIN THE GAME. THEY ARE GLASS HALF EMPTY INSTEAD OF GLASS OVER FLOWING KIND OF PEOPLE. THEY DEVELOPED THE MINDSET, WHEN YOU THROW THE BALL 3 THINGS CAN HAPPEN AND 2 ARE BAD. THIS BECOMES A MENTAL STRONG HOLD IN THEIR MIND AND THE LAW OF ATTRACTION TAPES OLD.. TO REINFORCE THIS MENTAL STRONG HOLD, THE SELF FULFILLING PROPHECY TAKES PLACE. SO THE PASSED BALL IS INCOMPLETE, INTERCEPTED OR QB SACKED. THE PITCH IS BAD OR TH HALFBACK CANNOT HANDLE IT. THESE TYPES OF COACHES LIVE IN FEAR OF WHAT CAN GO WRONG INSTEAD OF WHAT CAN GO RIGHT.


When you throw the ball you have to really develop players. I get guys who email me about throwing the ball. I tell them if this is just a 1 or 2 year thing cause you have johnny b good at QB with a rocket arm, you are wasting your time, my time and most of all your kids time.

If you are not willing to commit every fiber of your being to developing a passing attack you are wasting your time. Players are developed. QB are developed through repetitions, wr are developed through repetitions, pass blocking is developed through repetitions.

As a coach you have to work when you want to pass the ball. it is easy to turn around and hand the ball off. I heard a college coach say the least coached position at the high school level is running back. he rational was h.s. coaches find their best stud and hand the ball off to him, letting him rely upon his natural abilities.

Here are just some of my biased opinions.

How many kids have you seen pick up a football and just go back and forth handing the ball off to there buddy ?

How many times do you ever see a group of kids just in recess lining up with 7 OL man and running wedge ?

Whats do basketball guys do in the off season ? They play games and shoot hoops all sumer, if your kids know your going to have 5 wides and throw it around your kids will be doing the same they do for basketball but for football. If kids throw and play catch all off season they will get good at it just like there free throw shooting if they shoot hoops they will get better. Decent passers and pass catchers can become good passers and pass catchers, Good passers and pass catchers can become great passers and pass catchers. You can move the football with a average thrower. When you in 7 on 7 you are basically running your whole offense when wing-t and DW teams are in 7 on 7 they are just drawing plays in the dirt and throwing more passes then they will ever do all year round, in a pass first offense like 5 wides your 7 on 7's become more of a team O session. So in my opinion the argument on having a stud QB and a stable or WR's is a cop out to coaches that don't know how to coach there QB's and WR's.

To me most kids want to play catch and score points, most don't like handing the ball off 50 times in a game and scoring 14. Yes its tough to kill the clock, score in the red zone and your kids will become soft on defense IF YOU DONT HAVE ANSWERS FOR THOSE SITUATIONS AND DONT COACH UP THE DEFENSE.

I fail to understand why defensive guys would not like to coach defense under a passing syetem. Most DC would like to open a can of whoop ass on defense. they would like to blitz, they would like to attack but they know they cannot because they have to stop the other team.

what about a different paradime. what if your job was not to stop the other team but instead get the ball back to the explosive offense can score. what if you made a mistake but you knew it was okay cause the offense would pick you up.

it is all about perspective. I perfer an attacking 7 man front with quarters behind them. like the green bay packers play.
imagine being a defensive lineman who knows he can attack instead of being a space heater. a dlineman can acutally attack the run game instead of holding up the oline so the lbers make the tackles.

attack, attack, attack on defense. to bad frank beamer does not hire tony fanklin for the oc job. va. tech attacks on defense, imagine if they attack on offense. instead they lineup in the i formation and plodd away.