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Post by airraider on May 23, 2007 18:48:01 GMT -6
I have had something bothering me for a little while. I just left a school that I have been at for 7 years. Out of those 7 years we have never really been a great team until here recently. The current HC has been there for 3 years and we had gotten progressively better each year. We went 13-1 this year and made it to the semi finals.
Now, out of those 7 years, we just had our first kid get an offer today.
Now, not to say we havent had talent.. because we have..
But, none of the college material kids ever qualify..
Their core GPA's usually leave them needing a 22 or so on the ACT and we all know that most people with a 2.2 GPA will not make a 22 on the ACT.
Then I see all these big time football schools with all of these big name stars with 3.00 and higher.
Case in point. One of the best if not the best team here in Louisiana has probably on average 12 guys sign somewhere each year.
They have a to be senior who I have seen listed as having a 3.3 GPA. He is the real deal at QB and is probably having looks from every college in the country. But from what I understand, his ACT is so low that even with a 3.3 he cannot qualify. How in the world can a kid hold a 3.3 GPA in core classes if he is making a 10 on the ACT?
The answer, someone is making sure he has all A's and B's in his classes.
I bet this goes on more than any of us care to know or think about.
I have heard stories of smaller schools where the coach would go in and change the grades himself. This came from a good friend of mine who used to coach under this guy.
I have heard that Joe Mcknight hardly even went to class at John Curtis, yet he qualified.
I have even heard of universities finding a way to fix the ACT process so that their guy gets a qualifying score. Now of course this could just be hearsay, but I wouldnt put it past some of these big schools if they could find a way.
But if this is the case, you have to wonder howcome Noel Devine isnt qualified.
I would like to hear some of your thoughts on this.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2007 19:04:12 GMT -6
I don't want to get into mentioning specific kids, but I think we all know it goes on. It isn't right, but that isn't going to stop it.
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Post by fbdoc on May 23, 2007 19:05:32 GMT -6
Does grade changing or grade inflation occur? Absolutely! Is it rampant? I don't know. I can tell you that in 26 years of high school and college coaching I have never done it myself or heard of it being done at any of the schools I've been around, both small and large. I also remember several years ago when half the schools in the PAC 10 were sanctioned from Bowl games for using a phony school for summer make-up credits. As a coach, you have to decide where you stand on the issue of academic integrity - and integrity in general!
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2007 19:09:59 GMT -6
I also don't want to get into the demands of public education, but in most cases, failing grades are the kids' fault for being lazy. The classes aren't that demanding.
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jet
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Post by jet on May 23, 2007 19:23:41 GMT -6
I know for sure it happens. Our head coach refused to do it. If a kid didn't have the grades the coach told the player to go talk to the teacher, he never did it. He was always character first. He was replaced by a guy who will do anything to win. I think that you cripple the kids and teach them nothing about life. It just comes down to if you are a God fearing man or not.
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Post by spreadoption on May 23, 2007 19:36:34 GMT -6
I was just thinking this about 5 minutes ago. Some QB from Missouri just signed with Nebraska and on scout.com it said he has a 4.1 GPA and a "whopping" 25 ACT... that didn't make sense to me.
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Post by airraider on May 23, 2007 20:16:06 GMT -6
I was just thinking this about 5 minutes ago. Some QB from Missouri just signed with Nebraska and on scout.com it said he has a 4.1 GPA and a "whopping" 25 ACT... that didn't make sense to me. lol.. a 25 isnt anything to sneeze at.. Here is a troublesome thing for me.. My wife is still teaching at the school I just left. They have a huge kid who will be a sophomore next year. He had a 48 in her class. The DC went to her and kind of asked if there was anything he could do to up his grade. And she politely said.. no sorry.. he turned in an open book test after answering the first one and put his head down.. she said there was no way she was going to go out of her way when he cant even do the little things to help himself.. but here is the kicker.. I am now at a district rival school.. So it puts my wife in a position that makes it possible for it to look like she doesnt want to do it just to help me out.. That is just a bad situation to put someone in.. especially considering the circumstances.. |
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Post by coachd5085 on May 23, 2007 20:25:53 GMT -6
I think wolverine55 glossed over the key component, so I will delve into it a bit further. While I am sure there is some pencil whipping involved at some schools, I think a big part of it is the demands at ALL schools, not just public but private as well.
At my last college gig, we had higher academic standards than just the baseline qualifications. For us to get you admitted into the school as an athlete, you needed at least a 900 SAT or the ACT equivalent. Obviously not Ivy League standards, but still, every kid deserved a shot at college under that criteria.
Being a Native Louisianian, and our team being 4 wide run and shoot..I thought..I KNOW JUST the place to look into. Small Private High school in North LA... record holding passing attacks, national players of the year... A string of 5 or 6 straight D1 quarterbacks...
I was shocked when they did not have a SINGLE senior who was eligible for OUR admission. (Correction--They did have a blue chip QB who would have been eligible, but we weren't USC so....)
Do I think that school intentionally grade inflates? Absolutely not, However, I do think that classroom evaluation has changed in all schools, Simply doing what you are told, and being polite will get you a 3.0 in almost all but the elite schools.
Possible Reasons: 1st..Public school No child left behind. Studies have shown that while the program has shown some success (debatable I know) with the average students, performance of above average students is declining. Also, the miriad of other factors that most can envision.
In Lower -mid range tuitioned Private schools (especially catholic schools which feature lower tuition)...I think the lower standards of public schools have caused a chain reaction. Parents figure...wait, I am paying 4,000 -8,000 dollars for my kids to get "C"'s...I dont think so.... And the administration recognizes this.
Elite schools, because of their very nature, probably haven't suffered as much, but I bet it still has gotten a bit easier to get an A or B at those institutions too.
As far as the 25 on the ACT---well, you are right and at Minden, it would be very Impressive.. (LOL..just kidding) But I would agree that a 25 on an ACT doesn't really jive with a 4.1 on a 4.0 gpa scale.
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Post by spreadoption on May 23, 2007 20:35:58 GMT -6
Native of Lousiana + passed you up for USC= John David Booty?
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Post by coachd5085 on May 23, 2007 20:47:13 GMT -6
No comment ..LOL. keeping it anonomous to protect the innocent  . (he didnt pass us up by the way..we were no where near the blue chip level..didn't recruit him) I was shocked though, that he was the only one who would have met our eligibility criteria. I thought the school would have been a great opportunity to carpetbag a few southern boys to go up to the North East and show people how it is done. |
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Post by jjkuenzel on May 23, 2007 23:09:12 GMT -6
Actually, it makes perfect sense. He is a kid who works extremely hard in the classroom, but isn't a great standardized test taker. A 4.0 really isn't all that difficult for smart kids who apply themselves. I had a number of friends in HS who had 3.8/3.9 GPA's yet got a 22 or 23 on the ACT. If you get a 25 or above you are plenty smart.
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Post by airraider on May 23, 2007 23:28:42 GMT -6
nm
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Post by spreadoption on May 24, 2007 1:40:38 GMT -6
I'm not sayin he isn't smart, but having a 4.1 GPA and 25 ACT seemed odd to me. In fact, thinking about this a little further if he is just a bad standardized test taker and doesn't perform well when the clock starts tickin and the pressure is on; how will he preform in Memorial Stadium in front of 80,000 Husker fans? Maybe like Brian Cupito during the second half of the Insight Bowl? |
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Post by coachd5085 on May 24, 2007 6:46:22 GMT -6
spreadoption--I think it is much more common than odd, HOWEVER, i agree with you and that SHOULD be an odd occurance.
A's and B's have become a signal that you simply outperformed the lowest common denominator of students, not a signal that you performed above average or exemplary work.
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Post by coachmathis on May 24, 2007 7:56:58 GMT -6
I've never witness this happening but Im sure there are athletes who are going to fail who go to teachers days before grades are do for those last minute I gotta miss practice to do this make-up work assignments. I don't like that either because it would not be extended to everyone in the entire student body. I've heard of a guy who was MVP of the state basketball tourney that isn't going to graduate. Im not sure what his grades are like but have been told that he rarely went to class. Go figure. I don't think the ACT 25 with a 4.1 GPA is that strange. I had a 3.7 in high school and only made a 23 on the ACT. I did great in college.
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Post by hsrose on May 24, 2007 13:20:54 GMT -6
Interesting grading structure at our school. No D’s or F’s - In their place are I’s and NC’s. I for incomplete (D), NC for No Credit (F).
District policy for participation is 2.0 GPA or better. School policy for participation is a 2.0 or better and no more than 1 I and no NC’s. If a player has an NC at reporting time he is no longer eligible until is it an I or better. If he as 2 I’s he is ineligible until at least 1 is cleared.
If the student has an I at the end of the semester they receive no credit for the class. They can clear the I by signing a contract with the instructor which spells out what the student has to do to raise the I to a C. Student, teacher, parent, and school admin sign and it’s filed. Student completes the work, turns it in, teacher approves, C is awarded and the student gets credit. This can go on until the teacher is satisfied. An NC means summer school, it cannot be raised to an I and then to a C.
The school does not let a kid off with a D – they have to do the work or they don’t get credit for the class.
Some of the schools have players that take weightlifting, a shop/elective class, and then TA for the PE instructor/coach, getting 3 A’s, and then get D’s in history, math, and English. Result is a 2.0+ GPA and they are eligible.
Casey
IHS Vikings
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Post by coachbleu on Jun 5, 2007 7:23:43 GMT -6
Louisiana had a running back/basketball player about 12 years ago that was arguably the best talent in the state. He went to Patino's basketball camp during the summer and was camper of the year. During the fall of his senior year, he lead (and I do mean lead) his team to the state title. After football season, he stopped going to school regularly, and after being reprimanded, stopped going all together.
this kid had an entire community trying to help him get through school. Everybody in this small town was interested in seeing him graduate and go on to college. People visited him at his house; he even lived with a coach who took him in.
But in the end, it was all for nothing. He dropped out of school and I have never heard of him again. This kid had the grades, the intelligence, and surely the skills. What a jerk!
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Post by wingtol on Jun 5, 2007 8:40:37 GMT -6
Maybe a bit off topic here but we are finding out at our school (private very very high academic requirements) that a kid who we need to start, with our depth we need this kid bad, is struggling with grades. Now we know he has been struggling at our school and he has been working his butt off to get his grades up. He will end up passing all of his classes for the final grade but may have a failing grade or D for the last quarter. And he could be inelligable for next year. Even after passing all his classes for the year! The sad part is this kid would prob be doing well in just about any other school but our academics are just plain insane! Just another side of the coin where this kid is bustin his butt and could end up with nothing to show in the end. Sorry the grade thing has me venting.
On the plus side I do think we could possibly have the smartest right side of the line in the nation LOL. our possible TE/T/G are so smart it isn't funny too bad they won't be seeing much recruiting action comming their way LOL
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Post by bulldogoption on Jun 5, 2007 13:23:14 GMT -6
I just have a small complaint about this post. There is a student athlete's name used in the first thread. I feel we shouldn't use the names of high school players while discussing this topic. It would be different if we were speaking positively about him. It appears to be rumors. I have never heard of the kid. He may or may not be guilty of what he's being accused of, but he is a kid. A HS kid........
The topic is very valid and the original post made good points, but I think we should refrain from using HS athlete's names in this context.
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Post by coachcoyote on Jun 5, 2007 21:03:45 GMT -6
I believe it goes on at both private and public schools. I've had some kids tell me about what goes on in the classroom where teachers wouldn't. I've NEVER asked to have a grade changed. If the student-athlete can't get a C in today's environment, he's really screwing off.
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Post by midlineqb on Jun 5, 2007 21:41:26 GMT -6
I'm sure the grade changing goes on in both private and public high schools like someone stated earlier. In my 36 years of coaching I never asked for a grade to be changed. I even flunked players if they didn't do the work and were lazy. I'm a firm believer in the fact that if a student is lazy in the classroom he is going to be lazy in the athletic arena. We talked about academics at the end of practice every day. During football season we have very few players with low grades but during the winter and spring I had to really keep after them since the other coaches didn't emphasize grades with them.
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Post by wingman on Jun 5, 2007 21:42:51 GMT -6
There are schools and there are schools. A 3.0 at one school can be light years away from a 3.0 at another school. That's why a 3.5 student "surprisingly" scores only an 800 on the SAT. There's no extra consideration or grade inflation given on the SAT or ACT. We used to get kids from a local private school that always came in as honors students and were only average at our school. Their algebra book was our pre-algebra book. Teachers at that school told me their parents weren't paying 10,000 a year to get C's.
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. (he didnt pass us up by the way..we were no where near the blue chip level..didn't recruit him)
