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Post by spreadattack on Jan 31, 2018 11:53:04 GMT -6
I thought this article about the Patriots' approach to conditioning was interesting, that raises some thoughts on how coaches here work conditioning into their practices. www.theringer.com/nfl-playoffs/2018/1/30/16949762/super-bowl-new-england-patriots-fourth-quarter-comebacks-running-conditioning A few excerpts: "...“The conditioning is geared toward game performance. It’s not running to run. It’s running for a very specific event — a special teams play, a long offensive drive, a defensive stand,” [NE strength and conditioning coach] Cardona said. He lays out this practice drill: After a punt, there’s a dead sprint to cover the kick. This, of course, is a “very taxing” run in the first place, but Belichick is preparing for something even more specific. They practice kicking, a penalty that negates said kick, the walk back to the spot 5 yards behind the original line of scrimmage, then a re-kick and its subsequent dead sprint. “We come back and do it again,” Cardona said. “It is not the easiest thing.” The goal here, he said, is to get players in shape to sprint but also conditioned for this specific in-game scenario. ..."None of the Patriots I spoke with have played for a team with the practice consistency of the Patriots — the same practices in September as December. Martellus Bennett remarked last year, for instance, that he could not believe the Patriots were still running the hill during the playoffs. In his memoir, Julian Edelman referred to it as “the f-----g hill.” |
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Post by MICoach on Feb 1, 2018 7:52:07 GMT -6
"We've been running for so long that you don't feel like you're running anymore."
I like this approach - practices the same in December as they were in September - but how feasible is it on a high school level? I'm sure there's a fair amount of teams that approach it that way.
Teams I've been with have always modified over time to maintain focus and aim for maximum productivity in the time that practice is going on.
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Post by coachfrigo on Feb 1, 2018 7:57:50 GMT -6
Cardio is cardio. Whether you're running down the field simulating a punt, or just running down the field, they're both the same.
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Post by coachwoodall on Feb 1, 2018 8:25:22 GMT -6
"We've been running for so long that you don't feel like you're running anymore." I like this approach - practices the same in December as they were in September - but how feasible is it on a high school level? I'm sure there's a fair amount of teams that approach it that way. Teams I've been with have always modified over time to maintain focus and aim for maximum productivity in the time that practice is going on. We don't vary our practice routine, save cutting back on a few periods here and there. One of the things we don't cut back on are our speed/agility circuit, and I make the whole defense do some type of finisher everyday. If you look at our overall practice scripts Monday for game 1 was almost identical to the Monday for the playoffs, except it was 10 minutes shorter. |
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Post by ryanhath on Feb 1, 2018 8:29:42 GMT -6
Cardio is cardio. Whether you're running down the field simulating a punt, or just running down the field, they're both the same. I think the entire point of that article is that they are not both the same. I would say that the science provides quite a bit of back up for this as well. Sport specific and integrated cardio have been standard in Track and Field for more than a decade and football is catching up. I'd also be interested to see how the perception (by me) at least that the Patriots use more of their roster helps them in the fourth quarter. Less average plays per player. |
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Post by coachfrigo on Feb 1, 2018 8:33:05 GMT -6
Cardio is cardio. Whether you're running down the field simulating a punt, or just running down the field, they're both the same. I think the entire point of that article is that they are not both the same. I would say that the science provides quite a bit of back up for this as well. Sport specific and integrated cardio have been standard in Track and Field for more than a decade and football is catching up. I'd also be interested to see how the perception (by me) at least that the Patriots use more of their roster helps them in the fourth quarter. Less average plays per player. Physiologically, though, it makes no difference. If they sprint 50 yards down the field after simulating a punt, or 50 yards down the field without, they're both still sprinting 50 yards. And that 50 yard sprint by itself, if done to improve punt coverage, would be considered sport-specific. |
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Post by MICoach on Feb 1, 2018 8:39:21 GMT -6
"We've been running for so long that you don't feel like you're running anymore." I like this approach - practices the same in December as they were in September - but how feasible is it on a high school level? I'm sure there's a fair amount of teams that approach it that way. Teams I've been with have always modified over time to maintain focus and aim for maximum productivity in the time that practice is going on. We don't vary our practice routine, save cutting back on a few periods here and there. One of the things we don't cut back on are our speed/agility circuit, and I make the whole defense do some type of finisher everyday. If you look at our overall practice scripts Monday for game 1 was almost identical to the Monday for the playoffs, except it was 10 minutes shorter. We work similarly. I forgot out varsity kids take a strength/conditioning class the last hour of the day so once they're in school we cut conditioning if they "earn" it in 6th hour (HC teaches it). But like you said, our routine stays the same, times just get smaller. |
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Post by ryanhath on Feb 1, 2018 8:46:19 GMT -6
I would say that they are not both the same. Take the example provided:
Standard 50 yard sprint:
Athletes sprints in a straight line, body lean is of no consequence, accelerates to his max speed at about 30-35 yards and then tries maintain that speed through 50 yards.
Covering a 50 yard punt sprint (as I assume most people are taking it):
They start off in a football position, simulate a block then escape with proper football position. Accelerate through their landmark, running at an angle and not a straight line, then begin to converge on the ball. They will begin to breakdown at the appropriate landmark practicing purposeful deceleration. They then may need to breakdown and simulate a tackle or reaccelerate to chase a returner.
As explained in this article they then may need to job back to the LOS and redo the drill with appropriate game rest for a penalty.
Both 50 yards but very different.
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Post by Chris Clement on Feb 1, 2018 12:04:30 GMT -6
Julian Edelman wrote memoirs? He’s still playing!
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Post by breakerdog on Feb 1, 2018 13:57:28 GMT -6
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Post by pitt1980 on Feb 5, 2018 8:18:54 GMT -6
Patriots had the ball on the NE 49 with :13 left last night and threw a pass to try and pick up 10 or so yards, Collinsworth mentioned that he thought it might be a better payoff to try and do 2 hailmary's. I thought it was an interesting idea. I tend to think that he was probably right.
One thing about it though, it would have been a taxing play on all the receivers, to run 50 yards down there, turn around, get back in time to line up again, and then run 50 yards again. Especially considering that the Eagles defenders would not have needed to do that, the defenders starting near the goal line, could have just stayed near the goal line.
Since they basically needed a hail mary either way, I tend to think doing twice would have been worth it either way, but that would have been a very similar scenario to the punt redo.
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Post by silkyice on Feb 5, 2018 8:29:00 GMT -6
Patriots had the ball on the NE 49 with :13 left last night and threw a pass to try and pick up 10 or so yards, Collinsworth mentioned that he thought it might be a better payoff to try and do 2 hailmary's. I thought it was an interesting idea. I tend to think that he was probably right. One thing about it though, it would have been a taxing play on all the receivers, to run 50 yards down there, turn around, get back in time to line up again, and then run 50 yards again. Especially considering that the Eagles defenders would not have needed to do that, the defenders starting near the goal line, could have just stayed near the goal line. Since they basically needed a hail mary either way, I tend to think doing twice would have been worth it either way, but that would have been a very similar scenario to the punt redo. Interesting, and I heard that. I think the 10 extra yards makes that exact HailMary easier though. |
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Post by pitt1980 on Feb 5, 2018 8:35:48 GMT -6
Patriots had the ball on the NE 49 with :13 left last night and threw a pass to try and pick up 10 or so yards, Collinsworth mentioned that he thought it might be a better payoff to try and do 2 hailmary's. I thought it was an interesting idea. I tend to think that he was probably right. One thing about it though, it would have been a taxing play on all the receivers, to run 50 yards down there, turn around, get back in time to line up again, and then run 50 yards again. Especially considering that the Eagles defenders would not have needed to do that, the defenders starting near the goal line, could have just stayed near the goal line. Since they basically needed a hail mary either way, I tend to think doing twice would have been worth it either way, but that would have been a very similar scenario to the punt redo. Interesting, and I heard that. I think the 10 extra yards makes that exact HailMary easier though. I think it does too, but I suspect it doesn't double your success rate
(though, doubling isn't quite the right rate to compare it to, because, as mentioned above, on the second one you'd have to turn around, run to the line of scrimmage, then run 50 yards again, etc.. so does 10 extra yards add idk 75% to your chances of success on that Hail Mary?)
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Post by funkfriss on Feb 5, 2018 8:50:48 GMT -6
Patriots had the ball on the NE 49 with :13 left last night and threw a pass to try and pick up 10 or so yards, Collinsworth mentioned that he thought it might be a better payoff to try and do 2 hailmary's. I thought it was an interesting idea. I tend to think that he was probably right. One thing about it though, it would have been a taxing play on all the receivers, to run 50 yards down there, turn around, get back in time to line up again, and then run 50 yards again. Especially considering that the Eagles defenders would not have needed to do that, the defenders starting near the goal line, could have just stayed near the goal line. Since they basically needed a hail mary either way, I tend to think doing twice would have been worth it either way, but that would have been a very similar scenario to the punt redo. I think the fact that Brady barely got the ball to the EZ from the 40 had something to do with that play call |
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Post by silkyice on Feb 5, 2018 9:34:24 GMT -6
Interesting, and I heard that. I think the 10 extra yards makes that exact HailMary easier though. I think it does too, but I suspect it doesn't double your success rate
(though, doubling isn't quite the right rate to compare it to, because, as mentioned above, on the second one you'd have to turn around, run to the line of scrimmage, then run 50 yards again, etc.. so does 10 extra yards add idk 75% to your chances of success on that Hail Mary?)
There is a lot to look into. Just off the top of my head: Arm strength Receivers having to run back like you pointed out Interception on first attempt and you lose The fact that they might go for interception might help complete it - lol HailMary's take a long time. If you get pressure and then roll and then throw and it bounces for a second, you might still only get one attempt. Just a bunch of possibilities. Side question. Could it be better to have 4 new receivers ready to run on field for last play if you attempt the hailMary earlier? First they are fresher. Second, you get the ball off quicker and the defense could be scrambling to get set/ready just a little, although defense out of position for a second is not a big deal on HailMary. It should definitely help with pass rush. But the defense could/should also be ready to just throw 3 or 4 new d lineman out their to pass rush. |
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Post by Chris Clement on Feb 5, 2018 22:21:56 GMT -6
Before discussing the impact of receiver tiredness, let's look do a little Fermi estimate.
Hail Mary probability from 40: ~5%
Hail Mary probability from 30: ~10%
Probability of getting that 10 yard gain: 50%
So it's either what the pats did:
0.5*0.1+0.5*0.05=0.075
Or what Collinsworth suggests
1-(0.95^2)=0.0975
So he's not totally out to lunch here, prima facie he's on to something. Obviously the numbers are VERY rough, because we don't have great percentages for hail maries. And there isn't enough precision in these estimates to say anything more than "they're in the same ballpark."
But I don't know if your receivers would be all that worse off. First, the officials have to reset the ball, and that's going to take time. You can wind down the whole play clock. And then on the second attempt they don't even need to run. They can jog downfield, get into position, and wait for the jump ball. It's not the dumbest idea an announcer has ever had.
I don't think you'd sub guys. The pass rush on these plays is rarely the problem, and are you really going to sub Gronk, Amendola, Hogan, White for guys that weren't good enough to make your Hail Mary team?
If anyone should be a candidate for substitution it really might be the noodle-armed middle-aged man. You'd be pilloried for having Brady on the bench but it's not like he was going to dissect the defence here, you need someone who can put the ball through a point ten feet in the air, two yards past the goal line. What if he'd been forced t scramble backward?
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Post by fantom on Feb 5, 2018 22:33:42 GMT -6
I think it does too, but I suspect it doesn't double your success rate
(though, doubling isn't quite the right rate to compare it to, because, as mentioned above, on the second one you'd have to turn around, run to the line of scrimmage, then run 50 yards again, etc.. so does 10 extra yards add idk 75% to your chances of success on that Hail Mary?)
There is a lot to look into. Just off the top of my head: Arm strength Receivers having to run back like you pointed out Interception on first attempt and you lose The fact that they might go for interception might help complete it - lol HailMary's take a long time. If you get pressure and then roll and then throw and it bounces for a second, you might still only get one attempt. Just a bunch of possibilities. Side question. Could it be better to have 4 new receivers ready to run on field for last play if you attempt the hailMary earlier? First they are fresher. Second, you get the ball off quicker and the defense could be scrambling to get set/ready just a little, although defense out of position for a second is not a big deal on HailMary. It should definitely help with pass rush. But the defense could/should also be ready to just throw 3 or 4 new d lineman out their to pass rush. Players, not plays. Who do you want going up for a jump ball, Gronk (even a tired Gronk) or your fifth best receiver? |
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Post by silkyice on Feb 6, 2018 0:06:29 GMT -6
There is a lot to look into. Just off the top of my head: Arm strength Receivers having to run back like you pointed out Interception on first attempt and you lose The fact that they might go for interception might help complete it - lol HailMary's take a long time. If you get pressure and then roll and then throw and it bounces for a second, you might still only get one attempt. Just a bunch of possibilities. Side question. Could it be better to have 4 new receivers ready to run on field for last play if you attempt the hailMary earlier? First they are fresher. Second, you get the ball off quicker and the defense could be scrambling to get set/ready just a little, although defense out of position for a second is not a big deal on HailMary. It should definitely help with pass rush. But the defense could/should also be ready to just throw 3 or 4 new d lineman out their to pass rush. Players, not plays. Who do you want going up for a jump ball, Gronk (even a tired Gronk) or your fifth best receiver? Oh, I agree. I was just throwing junk out there. But, don’t sub Gronk, but the other 3. Or whatever. |
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Post by fantom on Feb 6, 2018 0:08:25 GMT -6
Players, not plays. Who do you want going up for a jump ball, Gronk (even a tired Gronk) or your fifth best receiver? Oh, I agree. I was just throwing junk out there. But, don’t sub Gronk, but the other 3. Or whatever. Well, if it doesn't work the first time it's an incomplete pass and stops the clock so they don't have to hurry back. |
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Post by fantom on Feb 6, 2018 0:17:55 GMT -6
BTW, speaking of that last play, Hail Mary scenario, I remember a team that did something so simple that I wonder why more people don't do it. It was either Detroit, with Calvin Johnson, or Atlanta and Julio Jones, but in that situation, they put that guy in the middle to pay deep defense. It makes so much sense, putting a big receiver with great ball skills out there in that situation.
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Post by blb on Feb 6, 2018 6:19:17 GMT -6
With Cooks out the Patriots were down to three WR, so personnel-wise they wouldn't have had a lot of options.
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Post by larrymoe on Feb 6, 2018 7:18:22 GMT -6
Patriots had the ball on the NE 49 with :13 left last night and threw a pass to try and pick up 10 or so yards, Collinsworth mentioned that he thought it might be a better payoff to try and do 2 hailmary's. I thought it was an interesting idea. I tend to think that he was probably right. One thing about it though, it would have been a taxing play on all the receivers, to run 50 yards down there, turn around, get back in time to line up again, and then run 50 yards again. Especially considering that the Eagles defenders would not have needed to do that, the defenders starting near the goal line, could have just stayed near the goal line. Since they basically needed a hail mary either way, I tend to think doing twice would have been worth it either way, but that would have been a very similar scenario to the punt redo. This is from the same guy who called every pass the Eagles ran an RPO... |
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Post by Chris Clement on Feb 6, 2018 18:57:51 GMT -6
I think that’s standard just because teams don’t carry 8 DBs on their 46-Man roster, but it’s definitely a logical choice. There’s no “coverage,” it’s just a jump ball, so you should be putting out whoever has the highest absolute vertical reach.
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