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Post by brophy on Jul 30, 2007 10:52:43 GMT -6
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Post by coachdawhip on Jul 30, 2007 11:31:06 GMT -6
perfect!!!!
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Post by airraider on Jul 30, 2007 11:34:17 GMT -6
never gets old.. and never gets legal.. CANNOT USE VERBIAGE TO DECEIVE!!
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Post by brophy on Jul 30, 2007 11:50:44 GMT -6
never gets old.. and never gets legal.. CANNOT USE VERBIAGE TO DECEIVE!! I use verbiage all the time to deceive........... Coach: "I need you to spot drop and route read #1 to gain depth over the top! You are 5 & 5 to junction the curl in the alley........"
Player: huh?!
Coach: Just go OVER THERE!" I've got deceiving (my own) players down to a science..... |
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Post by fbdoc on Jul 30, 2007 11:51:45 GMT -6
Going on "2" is using verbage to deceive...
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Post by brophy on Jul 30, 2007 11:52:14 GMT -6
Going on "2" is using verbage to deceive... THE COACH can't yell "hey bobby, you got the wrong ball!" |
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Post by CVBears on Jul 30, 2007 11:55:05 GMT -6
if bobby never said anything and coach yelled, "bobby, come here" would it technically be a legal play?
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Post by fbdoc on Jul 30, 2007 11:56:14 GMT -6
We had this set up to run a couple of years ago. Told the officials about it during pre-game and it was all set. WHen the time came to run the play (we were on the near hash mark) everything was going great ... till the line judge blew his whistle "so we could get the right ball!" One time I really wanted to KILL an official!
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Post by blackfly73 on Jul 30, 2007 12:13:29 GMT -6
I've never seen this but we might give it a try... the QB doesn't have to scream about the wrong ball... he might just get away with "dang it...coach..."
We have the "Argument Sweep" which we call BOB where we walk our QB out from C towards a reciever, and tell him he's wrong... when he says "Damn it BOB" the C does a direct snap to the RB and we run the sweep away.
I've also seen it done on a FG/PAT in college... a guy runs out of the huddle... towards the sideline... turns it up and BOOM.
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Post by airraider on Jul 30, 2007 12:56:35 GMT -6
The rule states that you cannot use verbiage to make the defense believe that a snap is not imminent.. meaning, "hey this is the wrong ball" makes the defense think that snap is not about to occur... side snap.. completely legal.. as long as the ball is handed directly in a non-delayed motion..
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Post by blackfly73 on Jul 30, 2007 12:59:57 GMT -6
The rule states that you cannot use verbiage to make the defense believe that a snap is not imminent.. meaning, "hey this is the wrong ball" makes the defense think that snap is not about to occur... side snap.. completely legal.. as long as the ball is handed directly in a non-delayed motion.. What if the QB doesn't say ANYTHING at all? |
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Post by airraider on Jul 30, 2007 13:44:14 GMT -6
then its a legal play as long as nothing is said.. the snaps legal.. and from there on.. its a live play.. just cant say anything to make the defense think that a snap is not about to take place.
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Post by wingman on Jul 30, 2007 20:51:45 GMT -6
Around here . the coach yells out" Get over gere" and the Qb jogs over to the side and then runs an up as th eball is snapped to the TB who throws to the QB.
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Post by lochness on Jul 31, 2007 5:12:51 GMT -6
"Can't use verbage to deceive"??
When I coached JV for one season (had a blast back in 2001), every once in a while when we'd playaction and the ball was between the 30's, I'd yell really loud "HIT IT UP IN THERE" or "GET IN THAT HOLE!!" It always seemed to work...should I feel bad?
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Post by airraider on Jul 31, 2007 6:24:10 GMT -6
Well I do not believe this rule was in place in 2001. I want to say it now falls under the fair acts rule.. It might have also been put into play because of this exact play.. so therefor this play on the video might have been legal.. but has since been made illegal..
Seems like every year they come up with a new rule to alleviate a play that someone has used due to gray areas in the rules..
They try to make the hideout illegal.. but it still isnt.. just have to do it a certain way..
and they did outlaw the guard around (fumblerooskie)
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Post by airraider on Jul 31, 2007 6:26:56 GMT -6
here is a good article on it.. Why Can't They Just Block and Tackle? Legal or Illegal, Trick Plays Won't Go Away Trick plays have been part of football ever since it was first played. Those plays not only tend to fool the defense, but often the officials are misled as well. Football tradition includes deception through the use of multiple shifts, unusual formations and creative plays. Some tricks are legal, others are not. What is probably the oldest documented trick play occurred in the 1903 Harvard-Carlisle game. Harvard kicked off to start the second half. Jimmy Johnson caught the kick and, obscured by his blocking wedge, stuck the ball under the back of Charlie Dillon’s jersey. Dillon ran unimpeded for a touchdown, but it wasn’t enough to keep Harvard from winning, 12-11. The play was outlawed in 1911 and is currently prohibited in both codes (NFHS 9-9-3; NCAA 9-2-2a).................... click link to continue reading www.referee.com/more/Samples/non_subscribers0807/trickplays.html |
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Post by airraider on Jul 31, 2007 6:33:45 GMT -6
But I do think the part about the hideout is wrong.. you can still do it.. it just has to be done right.. every player must come inside the 9 yard mark after the ready for play whistle and before the snap.. I think..
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Post by coachjim on Jul 31, 2007 7:18:42 GMT -6
Air: "then its a legal play as long as nothing is said.. the snaps legal.. and from there on.. its a live play.. just cant say anything to make the defense think that a snap is not about to take place."
What about words inluded the cadence, such as, "go" or "now!" I know it occurs, are you referring to this type of verbage/trickery during a cadence (HS rules)?
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Post by airraider on Jul 31, 2007 7:22:41 GMT -6
I guess its not a problem if you are making them think the snap is "NOW" but it is not.. which is kind of off the wall considering one is fair and one is not..
But when you says.. "hey coach, I need this" or "we have the wrong this" it makes the defense think that nothing is going to happen until that person gets back..
I dont know whether or not I agree with any of it.. but it is in the rules as being illegal..
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Post by airraider on Jul 31, 2007 7:26:12 GMT -6
Even a step farther..
While researching the legality of this.. I came across a forum of officials..
In this forum some guy came up with a scenario..
Say from a spread formation.. the QB motions to the slots and the RB to come into him..
They are huddled some what with the QB's back to the center.. the RB is standing just behind him and to the side..
The ball is snapped to the RB and he throws a pass to the receiver..
even with everyone set.. no sound being said.. there were a few reffs on that site who said it was illegal.. so..
Thats the part that kills me about officials.. In my mind there are too many variables and interpretations of things that could happen.. this really can mess things up..
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Post by coachjim on Jul 31, 2007 8:04:37 GMT -6
I get that part and all the rest, air, but what about, "go!" which starts a guy in motion, in the cadence? I will research this anyway now, I need that specific situation clarified totally and as accurately as I can. Don't want to find out game day. Thanks if you know or anyone can realiably speak about this exact scenario, as described, with this exact word, go. [hs rules.]!
Thanks, great post, which definately *cough* errr... may or may not apply to me, directly. Can't give away any kinda secret game plans or nothing on a silver platter. This is a youth question, but seems appropriate to your thread.
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Post by coachjim on Jul 31, 2007 8:08:48 GMT -6
err... I mean Brophy's thread, sorry bud, hopefully i'm not hijacking it! It seems to it the discussion.
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Post by airraider on Jul 31, 2007 8:10:26 GMT -6
Coach.. I am not sure what your question is asking specifically.. but using "go" instead of "hut" is not a problem.. my first 3 years as a varsity coach we used "down, ready-Go".. We were a Delaware Wing-T team, and we might have gotten it from them.. not sure..
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Post by brophy on Jul 31, 2007 8:18:44 GMT -6
I have heard of bringing a receiver in motion .........only instead of running, he does summersaults across the formation..........
the defense (& everyone else) is so busy watching the side show that the don't notice when the ball is snapped
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Post by coachjim on Jul 31, 2007 8:24:06 GMT -6
You hit it on the mark, that was my question, bud, thanks.
hahaha, you answered that one minute after I postd it...!
And I just was saying to Broph, its like getting on the spot, instant coaching advice here, thanks!
uh, one last thing... in your cadence... go seems to be at the snap... what if it isn't?
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Post by airraider on Jul 31, 2007 8:25:23 GMT -6
I have heard of bringing a receiver in motion .........only instead of running, he does summersaults across the formation.......... the defense (& everyone else) is so busy watching the side show that the don't notice when the ball is snapped 6th grade city championship.. my first year as a HC fresh out of high school.. we ran this play.. scored on a sweep away from the motion only to be called back for holding.. |
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Post by coachjim on Jul 31, 2007 8:26:30 GMT -6
hahaha, brophy answered it before i could even post my last question!
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Post by airraider on Jul 31, 2007 8:27:07 GMT -6
You hit it on the mark, that was my question, bud, thanks. hahaha, you answered that one minute after I postd it...! And I just was saying to Broph, its like getting on the spot, instant coaching advice here, thanks! uh, one last thing... in your cadence... go seems to be at the snap... what if it isn't? You can say "down, poot, farfignugen.. fargignugen, set... poot.. poot.. fart.. Go.. fart".. and snap it on the last fart and it doesnt matter.. lol |
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Post by brophy on Jul 31, 2007 8:27:14 GMT -6
hahaha, you answered that one minute after I postd it...! And I just was saying to Broph, its like getting on the spot, instant coaching advice here, thanks! whattaya expect?  |
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Post by airraider on Jul 31, 2007 8:29:52 GMT -6
hahaha, you answered that one minute after I postd it...! And I just was saying to Broph, its like getting on the spot, instant coaching advice here, thanks! whattaya expect? You people DO NOT even know the lengths this man goes through to frequent this board.. He has a fanny pack that he wears everywhere with 3 backup batteries.. He is constantly hacking away on that blackjackberry thing.. |
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