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Post by gators41 on Dec 15, 2017 7:46:06 GMT -6
Why doesnt Production in HS count for more?
I feel like debating this.
Especially with QBs
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Post by gators41 on Dec 15, 2017 7:54:06 GMT -6
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Post by rudyrude9 on Dec 15, 2017 8:05:42 GMT -6
That dude looks amazing.
Measurables matter I assume because alot of good High School programs can get great production out of some pretty average QBs. Systems matter when it comes to production. Same from going from college to the NFL.
Projecting QBs to the next level may be one of the tougher things in sports. The biggest factor I believe in QB production is coaching. When all the measurables are equal.
I imagine most college coaches feel the same way.
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Post by joelee on Dec 15, 2017 8:06:13 GMT -6
When I look at him without the benefit of a game film or meeting him in person I say "i'd like the chance to coach him". If he's not coachable then i've made a mistake but a lot of these guys offering him probably think they can coach him up better than he was on that film. |
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Post by newt21 on Dec 15, 2017 8:07:48 GMT -6
Not knowing kid/school/situation, who's to say that 25% of those incompletions weren't drops? Or that most of the passing game was vertical as opposed to majority bubble/now/tunnel screens? Or that his team was down majorly in many games and it was all on him to do the deed without much of a surrounding cast? There are many different things that go into completion percentage, not just QB ability. |
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Post by coachwoodall on Dec 15, 2017 8:14:19 GMT -6
Why doesnt Production in HS count for more? I feel like debating this. Especially with QBs If you talking in terms of recruiting (?) then it is simple. College HFCs get hired and fired based on recruiting. Period. HFC brings in a 4Star and he never does much, well then that kid just didn't pan out. HFC brings in a 2Star and he never does much, well then the HFC is DA who can't recruit. |
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Post by gators41 on Dec 15, 2017 8:14:34 GMT -6
Not knowing kid/school/situation, who's to say that 25% of those incompletions weren't drops? Or that most of the passing game was vertical as opposed to majority bubble/now/tunnel screens? Or that his team was down majorly in many games and it was all on him to do the deed without much of a surrounding cast? There are many different things that go into completion percentage, not just QB ability. I am saying that its a major red flag. I have started a side project, using the data off maxpreps in my state. Cross referencing the more successful QBs in college as a base line. No one and I mean no one has been that off. We all think we are qb whisperers. Including me. But this is off. Major Program in Florida. Largest Classification. No excuses. (I am not trying to knock this kid specifically, or his program. Just using this as example of my point) |
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Post by gators41 on Dec 15, 2017 8:15:21 GMT -6
Why doesnt Production in HS count for more? I feel like debating this. Especially with QBs If you talking in terms of recruiting (?) then it is simple. College HFCs get hired and fired based on recruiting. Period. HFC brings in a 4Star and he never does much, well then that kid just didn't pan out. HFC brings in a 2Star and he never does much, well then the HFC is DA who can't recruit. No doubt. This Star nonsense hurting recruiting. Especially for small school kids |
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Post by silkyice on Dec 15, 2017 8:35:24 GMT -6
Not knowing kid/school/situation, who's to say that 25% of those incompletions weren't drops? Or that most of the passing game was vertical as opposed to majority bubble/now/tunnel screens? Or that his team was down majorly in many games and it was all on him to do the deed without much of a surrounding cast? There are many different things that go into completion percentage, not just QB ability. Agreed. And stats don’t really matter. Recruiters are looking and measurables and tools. But still, a major college prospect should compelete more than 50% of his passes. |
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Post by gators41 on Dec 15, 2017 8:39:22 GMT -6
Not knowing kid/school/situation, who's to say that 25% of those incompletions weren't drops? Or that most of the passing game was vertical as opposed to majority bubble/now/tunnel screens? Or that his team was down majorly in many games and it was all on him to do the deed without much of a surrounding cast? There are many different things that go into completion percentage, not just QB ability. Agreed. And stats don’t really matter. Recruiters are looking and measurables and tools. But still, a major college prospect should compelete more than 50% of his passes. Why should stats not matter, especially for a QB? In one of the Top HS football States, In the Largest Classification and they run the spread? All situations are different. But this seems clear cut. Stats should matter |
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Post by silkyice on Dec 15, 2017 9:00:05 GMT -6
Agreed. And stats don’t really matter. Recruiters are looking and measurables and tools. But still, a major college prospect should compelete more than 50% of his passes. Why should stats not matter, especially for a QB? In one of the Top HS football States, In the Largest Classification and they run the spread? All situations are different. But this seems clear cut. Stats should matter I am saying that stats don't matter for recruiters. They don't. I have coached 13 d1 players and have a few that should get offered next year. No recruiter has EVER asked me about any of their stats. TD's, yards, tackles, pancakes, interceptions, blocking grade, whatever. They are recruiting measurables and tools. They have to have the required grades and ACT. They have to have a decent recommendation from me about work ethic and character and coach-ability. That is about it. By the way, from what it is worth, I watched less than a minute of his highlight tape. That is a d1 qb. Not surprised in the least that he is getting offers. |
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Post by cqmiller on Dec 15, 2017 9:02:12 GMT -6
Stats do matter... but they can't be everything.
There are some WingT QBs who are better QBs than a spread kid who has stats galore. The talent jump is so large from HS to college it's unreal. There's a guy on this board who's RB is at Alabama right now. I don't think he got tackled in high school... EVER. He was so big, strong, and fast it was laughable. At Alabama, he played, but the other 21 guys on the field are not the 21 that are on a normal high school field.
If I'm a college coach, I can teach a kid who's 6'4" 220 with a rocket and runs like a deer to increase his completion percentage, and have hours and hours of meetings to improve his thinking ability. I can't teach a 5'9" 200 lb kid who's a "great kid" to throw a 20 yard comeback no matter how smart he is... he doesn't have the ability to do it vs. the speed of defensive backs in college.
There was a kid from here in UT that was an "all american" for at least 2 of his 4 years in high school and pretty much has every statistical record a QB can have in the state. He accounted for like 80 TDs in one season in high school... he has never played in a game at the collegiate level. He's been to 6 colleges now and every time he finds out he's 3rd on the depth chart, he transfers. We beat him when he was in high school by just taking away his ability to run and making him throw the ball every time. He was so much more mature than most HS teams, he usually ran for 150 a game, which made his passing stats unreal because he was throwing vs. C0 anytime he wanted.
Stats can lie... According to stats Vince Young should have been one of the greatest QBs ever to enter the NFL. The jump in complexity of defenses and the athletic ability of EVERYONE on defense in the NFL ridiculous. You have to find a kid with the physical skills to compete at that level who ALSO has the intangibles. Lots of 5'10" 180 lb kids who are GREAT high school football players that could not ever see the field in college, no matter how many yards they threw for in HS.
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Post by silkyice on Dec 15, 2017 9:17:26 GMT -6
Why should stats not matter, especially for a QB? In one of the Top HS football States, In the Largest Classification and they run the spread? All situations are different. But this seems clear cut. Stats should matter I am saying that stats don't matter for recruiters. They don't. I have coached 13 d1 players and have a few that should get offered next year. No recruiter has EVER asked me about any of their stats. TD's, yards, tackles, pancakes, interceptions, blocking grade, whatever. They are recruiting measurables and tools. They have to have the required grades and ACT. They have to have a decent recommendation from me about work ethic and character and coach-ability. That is about it. By the way, from what it is worth, I watched less than a minute of his highlight tape. That is a d1 qb. Not surprised in the least that he is getting offers. By the way, right at beginning it says 4500yards and 65 TD's. That might be career or whatever. But those aren't bad stats. Especially when you turn on tape and see a big athletic kid throwing a laser. I have NO idea what type of college qb he will be. I think that is said about everyone whose name isn't John Elway. |
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Post by Defcord on Dec 15, 2017 9:17:27 GMT -6
I think another think with this kid specifically is that there's a built in Plan B with his athleticism. If he doesn't workout as a QB he has the athletic ability to play another position. |
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Post by gators41 on Dec 15, 2017 9:20:52 GMT -6
Why should stats not matter, especially for a QB? In one of the Top HS football States, In the Largest Classification and they run the spread? All situations are different. But this seems clear cut. Stats should matter I am saying that stats don't matter for recruiters. They don't. I have coached 13 d1 players and have a few that should get offered next year. No recruiter has EVER asked me about any of their stats. TD's, yards, tackles, pancakes, interceptions, blocking grade, whatever. They are recruiting measurables and tools. They have to have the required grades and ACT. They have to have a decent recommendation from me about work ethic and character and coach-ability. That is about it. By the way, from what it is worth, I watched less than a minute of his highlight tape. That is a d1 qb. Not surprised in the least that he is getting offers. Div 1 QB for sure. I am not arguing that. Kid has all the measurables. I have coached 11 D1 guys and no one has ever asked either. But... heres the big but.... Why dont our stats matter. Are you not a good coach? College stats matter to NFL. I am saying they should matter more, we are having too many busts from "elite" qbs. What about this kid? www.hudl.com/athlete/o/3972760/highlights/59b446440dc08621741b5d42To me he is the better prospect. Thoughts? |
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Post by gators41 on Dec 15, 2017 9:25:32 GMT -6
I am saying that stats don't matter for recruiters. They don't. I have coached 13 d1 players and have a few that should get offered next year. No recruiter has EVER asked me about any of their stats. TD's, yards, tackles, pancakes, interceptions, blocking grade, whatever. They are recruiting measurables and tools. They have to have the required grades and ACT. They have to have a decent recommendation from me about work ethic and character and coach-ability. That is about it. By the way, from what it is worth, I watched less than a minute of his highlight tape. That is a d1 qb. Not surprised in the least that he is getting offers. By the way, right at beginning it says 4500yards and 65 TD's. That might be career or whatever. But those aren't bad stats. Especially when you turn on tape and see a big athletic kid throwing a laser. I have NO idea what type of college qb he will be. I think that is said about everyone whose name isn't John Elway. Man you have so many talking points in this post!!!! First off, why Vince Young greatest QB ever by stats. Vince Young 13 3036 26 10 212 325 65%. These are not great stats. Good not Elite. INT per Pass Huge Red Flag. HUUUGE. |
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Post by gators41 on Dec 15, 2017 9:26:47 GMT -6
Danny Wuerffel men, Danny Wuerffel
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Post by silkyice on Dec 15, 2017 9:29:36 GMT -6
I am saying that stats don't matter for recruiters. They don't. I have coached 13 d1 players and have a few that should get offered next year. No recruiter has EVER asked me about any of their stats. TD's, yards, tackles, pancakes, interceptions, blocking grade, whatever. They are recruiting measurables and tools. They have to have the required grades and ACT. They have to have a decent recommendation from me about work ethic and character and coach-ability. That is about it. By the way, from what it is worth, I watched less than a minute of his highlight tape. That is a d1 qb. Not surprised in the least that he is getting offers. Div 1 QB for sure. I am not arguing that. Kid has all the measurables. I have coached 11 D1 guys and no one has ever asked either. But... heres the big but.... Why dont our stats matter. Are you not a good coach? College stats matter to NFL. I am saying they should matter more, we are having too many busts from "elite" qbs. What about this kid? www.hudl.com/athlete/o/3972760/highlights/59b446440dc08621741b5d42To me he is the better prospect. Thoughts? Watched less than a minute also. That kid is dang good also. He can FLY! I could absolutely see him being a better college qb. Not saying he will be, but it wouldn't surprise me. But sure is hard to not see that 6'6" 220. |
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Post by joelee on Dec 15, 2017 9:50:08 GMT -6
I am saying that stats don't matter for recruiters. They don't. I have coached 13 d1 players and have a few that should get offered next year. No recruiter has EVER asked me about any of their stats. TD's, yards, tackles, pancakes, interceptions, blocking grade, whatever. They are recruiting measurables and tools. They have to have the required grades and ACT. They have to have a decent recommendation from me about work ethic and character and coach-ability. That is about it. By the way, from what it is worth, I watched less than a minute of his highlight tape. That is a d1 qb. Not surprised in the least that he is getting offers. Div 1 QB for sure. I am not arguing that. Kid has all the measurables. I have coached 11 D1 guys and no one has ever asked either. But... heres the big but.... Why dont our stats matter. Are you not a good coach? College stats matter to NFL. I am saying they should matter more, we are having too many busts from "elite" qbs. What about this kid? www.hudl.com/athlete/o/3972760/highlights/59b446440dc08621741b5d42To me he is the better prospect. Thoughts? He has less arm strength. He has a more filled out frame but looks shorter than the other guy. He looks like he has had better coaching so far. From a college point of view its now a matter of CEILING. Chances are he is closer to as good as he will ever get than the other guy. Can some pure passing coach like Leach take him and light up a scoreboard? Maybe, unless they recruit over him. The throwing motion does actually remind me of Danny Wuerffel. Your last line calling him the better prospect is just not the case. Better player maybe, better prospect by definition, no. |
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Post by silkyice on Dec 15, 2017 9:52:00 GMT -6
I coached in the 2015 all star game. Our qb was Nathan Rourke. 6'2" 200. Great arm, speed, vision, student of the game, all the intangibles and measurables. Threw for 3700 yards and 59 td's senior year. Was UNSACKABLE in high school.
Also a young kid. He is just 19 right now as a college sophomore.
He had zero offers. Zero. I thought it was crazy.
My son also played in that game. Plenty of d1 players in that game. (By the way, I don't count those guys in my count of d1 players coached LOL). I am not an autograph guy. I have no autographs of anyone. I had my son get his autograph. Other players did also. He was that good. I knew he would be something even though he had ZERO offers.
Goes juco. Goes to Ohio Univesity. Wins starting job. Responsible for 37 td's this year. 15 passing. 1 receiving and 21 rushing. That is 9th in the entire nation NCAA d1.
Again, no offers. And I KNEW he was going to be doing something like this.
So how does every single d1 college miss that kid? It really was obvious.
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Post by silkyice on Dec 15, 2017 9:54:05 GMT -6
Div 1 QB for sure. I am not arguing that. Kid has all the measurables. I have coached 11 D1 guys and no one has ever asked either. But... heres the big but.... Why dont our stats matter. Are you not a good coach? College stats matter to NFL. I am saying they should matter more, we are having too many busts from "elite" qbs. What about this kid? www.hudl.com/athlete/o/3972760/highlights/59b446440dc08621741b5d42To me he is the better prospect. Thoughts? He has less arm strength. He has a more filled out frame but looks shorter than the other guy. He looks like he has had better coaching so far. From a college point of view its now a matter of CEILING. Chances are he is closer to as good as he will ever get than the other guy. Can some pure passing coach like Leach take him and light up a scoreboard? Maybe, unless they recruit over him. The throwing motion does actually remind me of Danny Wuerffel. Your last line calling him the better prospect is just not the case. Better player maybe, better prospect by definition, no. Depends on how we define prospect. If you substitute the word potential, then I will agree with you. But I don't believe recruiting is all about potential. |
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Post by coachbdud on Dec 15, 2017 10:02:50 GMT -6
if a college is gonna "miss' on a recruit... they cant miss small... that gets them fired
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Post by gators41 on Dec 15, 2017 10:03:22 GMT -6
I coached in the 2015 all star game. Our qb was Nathan Rourke. 6'2" 200. Great arm, speed, vision, student of the game, all the intangibles and measurables. Threw for 3700 yards and 59 td's senior year. Was UNSACKABLE in high school. Also a young kid. He is just 19 right now as a college sophomore. He had zero offers. Zero. I thought it was crazy. My son also played in that game. Plenty of d1 players in that game. (By the way, I don't count those guys in my count of d1 players coached LOL). I am not an autograph guy. I have no autographs of anyone. I had my son get his autograph. Other players did also. He was that good. I knew he would be something even though he had ZERO offers. Goes juco. Goes to Ohio Univesity. Wins starting job. Responsible for 37 td's this year. 15 passing. 1 receiving and 21 rushing. That is 9th in the entire nation NCAA d1. Again, no offers. And I KNEW he was going to be doing something like this. So how does every single d1 college miss that kid? It really was obvious. They miss on him because of recruiting services, pressure from fans and boosters over said recruiting services and arrogance. What we do means nothing to them, Whoa , just looked up Nathan Rourke. Going to PM you |
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Post by cqmiller on Dec 15, 2017 10:09:51 GMT -6
School I'm at now has 2 kids signing Pac-12 offers in February... both of them had offers before they had ANY stats that would justify it.
6'6" 275 lbs DE/DT/TE
6'5" 280 lb LT
both were the same height, but lighter when they got offered as sophomores. I believe the TE had only 10 catches his entire sophomore year... still had about 20 offers.
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Post by fshamrock on Dec 15, 2017 10:10:47 GMT -6
off topic a bit but It's staggering to me how much Rivals and those other sites have influenced actual recruiting, this is a near direct quote from a guy I know that's been at a D1 level for a while *disclaimer, him and every other college coach I've been around are fans of the F word
"when that chit was first starting out nobody cared, you recruited kids that fit your system, or you wanted to build a team around, or you just had a good feeling for, but then people starting paying attention to how many f'n starts some f'n website gave the kid, which still didn't matter, but then they started ranking the f'n recruiting classes and f'n nerds on their f'n computers started stirring up chit about how many f'n stars we got on our f'n recruiting....so all of the sudden WE had to pay attention how many f'n stars a motherf'r has or we look like we don't know how to recruit"
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Post by fshamrock on Dec 15, 2017 10:14:42 GMT -6
if a college is gonna "miss' on a recruit... they cant miss small... that gets them fired I wonder how long until people start to follow the Patriots model in college and have success...realizing that (holy crap!) you can build a good team around a great quarterback and then a whole lot of role players who are willing to work hard running backs don't matter, go cheap....lots of guys out there who can run fast with the football WR's don't have to be unbelievable - get a bunch of good route runners with good hands, great QB will throw them open get the best interior defensive lineman you can find ....win a lot |
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Post by joelee on Dec 15, 2017 10:22:14 GMT -6
Statistically every national championship FBS team has had at least 50% of their roster made up of 4 or 5 star players.
The star system is far from perfect but its better than most people realize. The one way for a program to punch above their recruiting weight is with an underrated qb and a system for him to produce big.
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Post by wingtol on Dec 15, 2017 10:34:06 GMT -6
Here is another aspect of recruiting that seems to be bigger now than it was before, college camps. That's where all the college guys I have talked with at the upper levels find guys. They are seeing these kids in person more than before and don't give a crap about their stats. You open their eyes at a camp and get on the radar.
And as others have said colleges have a set of measurable's they are gonna use for every position, you don't fit those no matter how good your stats are you better blow them away with your athleticism somehow. Won a state title years ago now, was sitting in HC office and he played a message from Paterno "That #33 you have is the best football player we have seen this year. Too bad he's not 2 inches taller..."
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Post by joelee on Dec 15, 2017 10:38:24 GMT -6
Let me ask the OP. Do you care about middle school stats?
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SconnieOC
Junior Member
Just here to learn the facemelter
Posts: 412
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Post by SconnieOC on Dec 15, 2017 11:07:31 GMT -6
First of all.. that dude has guys to throw to.. he's throwing bubbles, and the kid runs for 70 yds.. that's pretty helpful to the stat line.
I think depending on the system, completion % is a bit overrated with all the bubbles, and now screens people throw. When I was a GA the QB I coached was 26-27 for 280 and 4 TDs. He threw 5 passes more than 10 yds, and we had great WR's. Stat line looks amazing, but most guys can throw a hitch.
I have a buddy who's a D2 coach at a pretty good school, just went undefeated and blew a big lead in the playoffs to end their season.. I've told him about several kids who I think are a steal, and he can't offer them because they are 6'0 DEs. He knows they are good, but if they miss on a kid who was too small, they get fired.. and that's at a level where they don't recruit stars. My best friend in high school was #12 OG in the country... absolute stud.. Couldn't get a single Power 5 offer because he was 6'1. Was a 4 year starter and won a FCS national championship. Measurables matter more than anything else at that level.
Many (not all, I know there are some great ones out there) D1 coaches are arrogant guys who feel that if they get a guy who looks good, they can fix any problems he has. Especially a QB coach or OC who wants to be a HC.. if they can groom a guy some duumbass AD will get excited about him and hire him because he took one guy who has a cannon, and can run like a deer, and put up stupid video game numbers.
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