coachdfrompa
Freshmen Member
Talent does what it can. Genius does what it must.
Posts: 36
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Post by coachdfrompa on Nov 14, 2017 7:37:20 GMT -6
I wanted to get the boards opinion on this and get feed back from some experts.
We were in the situation this year where we were up comfortably towards the middle of the 3rd quarter against a few opponents. We then subbed out and put ours twos in. Both teams left in their first group, which I am totally fine with.
The issue I have is this. Both teams started consistently sending 6 guys and were basically teeing off against out JV, of which, some of our kids were freshman. I am fine with leaving your ones in and always believed that the team that is up should sub out first in situations like that. But, in my mind, blitzing 6 every time with your varsity against our JV when you know we are going to run the ball and not throw it (because throwing the ball in that situation would be perceived as running it up) is a little bit of bad form.
I know it is our job to stop it, but if we were to run a screen or quick pass game to counteract their constant blitzing, we would have been perceived as the bad guys who are "trying to rub their noses in it". So, the first time it happened we stayed true to form and kept running the ball with our JV into the teeth of their blitzing defense. Some of our kids got knicked up, but hey that's football.
The second time it happened, a different team who basically didn't blitz all game did the same exact thing. I mean every play. No exaggeration. Again, getting teed off on. I begged our HC to either throw the ball or put some starters back in. We put our starting RB back in, who they blitzed right by, and we scored from 15 yards out.
Am I wrong in thinking what I am thinking, that if the team leading waves the white flag, that it is totally fine if you want your starters to stay in, but its a little off to turn into the Pittsburgh Steelers and start steamrolling our JV players? In my mind, we had to protect our guys. I am not a "run it up guy" by any sense of the word. Nor is the head coach. Far from it. Too much respect for the game, its coaches, and players. But it would be stupid of us to keep throwing our JV kids to the wolves in that situation and possibly get them hurt by simply running the ball into their barrage. Again, fine if you leave your starters in, but not fine if all of a sudden you start bringing 6.
Would love to read everyone's opinions on this, either way. Thanks! |
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Post by M4 on Nov 14, 2017 7:40:14 GMT -6
We had the same thing happen to us last week up by 50... all of the sudden with our 3rd QB and our 4th RB in their D starts making plays for losses... it was lame, plus with our 2nd D in (including a female at FS and a 5'5" kid at corner) they double move the 5'5 kid with their starting WR and throw TD.
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Post by olcoach53 on Nov 14, 2017 7:42:38 GMT -6
We had a similar situation on the flip side of this. We were down HUGE to a superior opponent and we just don't have the numbers to make wholesale changes. I told our DC to stop blitzing 6 or 7 guys every play and just finish the game out. The opposition took notice and just ran dive the rest of the game to speed up the process.
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Post by silkyice on Nov 14, 2017 8:04:01 GMT -6
In my opinion, it is wrong. And it is like being a bully. Can’t handle the real men, but yeah, let’s get those little guys.
Now, if there defense is a base blitzing defense and that is what they do and they sub, then that is what they do. Just like if your team is a passing offense and you get up big and sub, but keep passing. That is what you do.
Your coach might should have thrown on them.
Current modern spread offenses make this situation even worse. We could play the best team in the entire nation and them be spread out with their subs in and we know they aren’t going to pass and could just put 8 in the box and blitz, and they aren’t going to run on us. And then cry foul when they pass.
It is poor sportsmanship in my opinion.
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Post by wingtol on Nov 14, 2017 8:28:22 GMT -6
This sort of happened to us this year where we were up big and put our back ups in, we have like 42 in 9-12 so when we empty the bench we empty the bench, other team all of a sudden starts doing all kinds of stuff on O they couldn't do vs our starters. Score 3 quick td's. Our HC got pissed and put the starters in next defense got the ball back and hung another td on them. They went and ran base stuff the rest of the game after that.
Their coach was cool after the game actually apologized after the game said they were beat up and didn't have backup skill guys and it was the last regular season game. Said he would have done the same thing we did to stop the scoring.
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Post by ahall005 on Nov 14, 2017 8:46:13 GMT -6
Depends on the team. last year we only had one senior and he played in less than half of the games. So when the other team put in their jv we we were finally on an even playing field a lot of weeks. Our HC would keep our first group in until we scored before subbing out the ones we could.
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Post by cfoott on Nov 14, 2017 8:58:58 GMT -6
Protect your kids and run your offense. If you have your subs in and you throw because they're blitzing, I don't see that as bad form. That's calling the game. If they have a problem with that... forget 'em. How else do you get a defense to back off? Throw into the blitz.
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Post by carookie on Nov 14, 2017 9:02:32 GMT -6
I think mixing in a pass here and there with your #2s running against a meat grinder is fine.
Had a few games this year where we were up big and opponent decided to just send the house because they knew we were gonna be running (we didn't have the depth to have #2s). A quick bubble or TE pop type play slows it down real quick. Actually had my AD on the sideline during one of those situations and explained to him exactly what was gonna happen and why.
Anyone who would argue that you are running it up in that situation really doesn't know what is going on (or is just trying to disparage you) and could easily be proven wrong just by bringing up player safety.
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Post by silkyice on Nov 14, 2017 9:33:34 GMT -6
I think mixing in a pass here and there with your #2s running against a meat grinder is fine. Had a few games this year where we were up big and opponent decided to just send the house because they knew we were gonna be running (we didn't have the depth to have #2s). A quick bubble or TE pop type play slows it down real quick. Actually had my AD on the sideline during one of those situations and explained to him exactly what was gonna happen and why. Anyone who would argue that you are running it up in that situation really doesn't know what is going on (or is just trying to disparage you) and could easily be proven wrong just by bringing up player safety. Plus, it is your backups! They deserve to try and score just like anyone else. Especially against the other teams starters. |
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Post by 60zgo on Nov 14, 2017 9:44:43 GMT -6
Run your offense. Period. The back ups have worked hard all week and gotten beaten up by the starters.These games give them a chance to play and get some experience.
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Post by silkyice on Nov 14, 2017 9:51:04 GMT -6
Played a rival city school one year and won somewhere around 62-14. Our backups scored two TD's on a fast screen and bubble. We had backups in and they had starters in and they were playing a 4-4 with 8 guys playing the run and blitzing. My 9th grade RB's was getting lit up. Ran the screens and scored. They were SCREENS.
Found out the AD at the other school was pissed off about us "running up the score". Word traveled in that town. I am sure that word got back to them that I said, that I don't give a crap. Quit blitzing the second team and it wouldn't have happened.
Heard that the AD said that no team should EVER score 60 on another team. The very next game, literally the very next game, they beat a team 60-7. I laughed my rear off.
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Post by tigerscoachbuck on Nov 14, 2017 10:01:09 GMT -6
We have had situations like this before, on both sides, and the question always is, who runs up the flag first. Is it our responsibility as the ass-kicker to take the foot off the gas, and sub in players? Or is it the opponents responsibility to start taking their players out and concede victory?
Answer is convoluted. If it is a team we play often and have a good respectful relationship with, we will institute mass subs. But the starters will be on stand-by until we know the opponent sees that we are either taking it easy on them, or running up the white flag.
If it is a team we do not play often, or are unsure of what the opponent will do, typically we will have our line stay and replace the backfield. This goes for being way up or way down. At least if the line is in, some of our players have a chance of survival against starters. That way we can protect the "cute kids" with our "big uglies" until we can figure out the gameplan adjustment by the opponent. I would say that this is what we typically do. It also helps us reinforce our preaching of playing until the final whistle regardless of score.
There are a very select few opponents that we do not get along with, and we will almost always leave our starters in one way or the other until the final whistle. These teams we could count on one hand. Actually its probably only one or two.
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Post by coachdubyah on Nov 14, 2017 10:12:18 GMT -6
I may be in the minority here, but if I'm up by a lot and he doesn't take out his guys then I'm not taking mine out. We may milk some clock, but there are not subs for me until he does. Granted I may make a few subs here and there, but whole sale changes is not what I do until I see that he is. If he still has his 1's in, then I take that as NOT waiving the white flag.
School/team numbers has a lot to do with this too. You can also tell by their playcalling...at least I can.
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Post by mnike23 on Nov 14, 2017 10:15:08 GMT -6
totally agree with what some are saying.
we are base wing t offense.
we do have a 2x2/3x1 package with the kids to be able to do just that. but im too multiple to be held down to the offense of the generation. anyways
we get up big, im running the crap out of the ball, but not just going to stay with belly, belly g. im running the offense. i like 8 in the box, even vs JV kids. theres a hole somewhere in that defense.
now if it was ugly, i would do just like someone said,
8 in box, im gonna go 2x2 and run bubble screen. save my kids some.
jet sweep is always good too.
hate coaches like that, were up 40, just play base and get off the field.
in a kick off classic/week 0 game, my 1st year as head coach I scheduled a team that was pretty good, we were loaded too so it was a good test for both.
we put 28 up the first half and the consensus all week was to put JV in for the 4th quarter.
since we were up 21 in the 3rd, i started putting in 2nds and jvs.
they score real quick a couple times and all a sudden we were losing the game.
varsity kids got pi s s ed off. so i put them in for a series( to take the lead back), but eventually let the game end. point proven to everyone.
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Post by fantom on Nov 14, 2017 10:36:17 GMT -6
I may be in the minority here, but if I'm up by a lot and he doesn't take out his guys then I'm not taking mine out. We may milk some clock, but there are not subs for me until he does. Granted I may make a few subs here and there, but whole sale changes is not what I do until I see that he is. If he still has his 1's in, then I take that as NOT waiving the white flag. School/team numbers has a lot to do with this too. You can also tell by their playcalling...at least I can. I don't see subbing in kids as being nice to the other team. I see it as rewarding our kids. |
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coachdfrompa
Freshmen Member
Talent does what it can. Genius does what it must.
Posts: 36
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Post by coachdfrompa on Nov 14, 2017 10:49:01 GMT -6
these replies are great, and I am glad it seems I was seeing things rationally. We have the mercy rule in our state, which means up 35 in the second half the clock doesn't stop (it does on change of possession, then starts when the ball is set). I think that it is perfectly acceptable to leave your starters in until the 4th quarter, unless the score is really lopsided.
A local team just upset a perennial district power after being down 35-7 with 4 minutes to go in the 3rd QTR in a state quarter final game. Now, Perennial power didn't sub out at all or anything, but comebacks of large degrees can happen. I think all is fair with the first 3 quarters unless it is really embarrassing, or you are in the running clock mercy rule type situation.
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Post by Chris Clement on Nov 14, 2017 10:57:57 GMT -6
I think we've all been in one of these games. A lot of the time I bet if you asked some honest questions you'd find one team thought the game was still marginably winnable, or maybe the final score meant more to one team than the other (playoff tiebreakers, for example).
I've had some success avoiding problems as well by having a halftime parlay. It's only viable in major blowouts but a quick chat between the two coaches and the refs to establish some ground rules going forward. We had a team agree to forfeit and scrimmage the second half on the condition that players X, Y, and Z wouldn't be playing, and we countered with the proviso that they be allowed to kick.
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Post by MICoach on Nov 14, 2017 11:14:01 GMT -6
Ultimately, when we've been up big we always start subbing first, but don't really go wholesale until our opponent does too. In other words, we might go cruise control but they need to waive a white flag. If they're blitzing the crap out of our 2nd and 3rd string and we can't get a drive together to run the clock then we'll throw a hitch or a bubble to keep them honest.
We've had an instance or two where we were up maybe 4 scores and our 2-3-JV's gave up a score, then our opponent went onside. Our HC really doesn't care for that, we threw a fade to a JV kid for 30 yards one time and the other I think rather than kneeling out the clock we kept running power. I don't necessarily agree with throwing it deep, but I also don't think having your #1's beat up on our JV team is OK either.
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Post by fkaboneyard on Nov 14, 2017 11:22:01 GMT -6
If my team is walloping another team and I put our benchwarmers in I expect the other team to compete (that makes my kids better). If the other team's players (or coaches, had the situation before) are acting like pricks when they have some success I'm going to put my starters back in and we're going to stomp them into the mud.
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Post by mattharris75 on Nov 14, 2017 11:36:01 GMT -6
Related situation. We were up 49-0 at halftime in our week 10 game this season. The other teams coach requested a running clock for the second half. No problem. But then he proceeds to kick an onside kick to open up the second half. This was not an accidental/bad kick. It was clearly intentional. I had to roll my eyes at that one. You're conceding by asking for the running clock and then you go and do that...
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Post by wiscohscoach on Nov 14, 2017 11:39:47 GMT -6
I see no problem throwing the ball if it is 2s on 2s or 3s on 3s. Your QB and WR deserve the chance. If they can't stop it, oh well.
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Post by coachdubyah on Nov 14, 2017 12:22:24 GMT -6
I may be in the minority here, but if I'm up by a lot and he doesn't take out his guys then I'm not taking mine out. We may milk some clock, but there are not subs for me until he does. Granted I may make a few subs here and there, but whole sale changes is not what I do until I see that he is. If he still has his 1's in, then I take that as NOT waiving the white flag. School/team numbers has a lot to do with this too. You can also tell by their playcalling...at least I can. I don't see subbing in kids as being nice to the other team. I see it as rewarding our kids. Yeah I agree. But I just don’t do wholesale changes unless the outcome is obvious. |
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Post by gators41 on Nov 14, 2017 12:23:48 GMT -6
I dont see how throwing the quick game is unsportsmanlike. That is what we do as a base though. We throw a lot of quicks and screens.
If you are blitzing my little guys I am going to throw it. Not the bomb, but a quick out.
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Post by coachcb on Nov 14, 2017 12:43:37 GMT -6
I wanted to get the boards opinion on this and get feed back from some experts.
We were in the situation this year where we were up comfortably towards the middle of the 3rd quarter against a few opponents. We then subbed out and put ours twos in. Both teams left in their first group, which I am totally fine with.
The issue I have is this. Both teams started consistently sending 6 guys and were basically teeing off against out JV, of which, some of our kids were freshman. I am fine with leaving your ones in and always believed that the team that is up should sub out first in situations like that. But, in my mind, blitzing 6 every time with your varsity against our JV when you know we are going to run the ball and not throw it (because throwing the ball in that situation would be perceived as running it up) is a little bit of bad form.
I know it is our job to stop it, but if we were to run a screen or quick pass game to counteract their constant blitzing, we would have been perceived as the bad guys who are "trying to rub their noses in it". So, the first time it happened we stayed true to form and kept running the ball with our JV into the teeth of their blitzing defense. Some of our kids got knicked up, but hey that's football.
The second time it happened, a different team who basically didn't blitz all game did the same exact thing. I mean every play. No exaggeration. Again, getting teed off on. I begged our HC to either throw the ball or put some starters back in. We put our starting RB back in, who they blitzed right by, and we scored from 15 yards out.
Am I wrong in thinking what I am thinking, that if the team leading waves the white flag, that it is totally fine if you want your starters to stay in, but its a little off to turn into the Pittsburgh Steelers and start steamrolling our JV players? In my mind, we had to protect our guys. I am not a "run it up guy" by any sense of the word. Nor is the head coach. Far from it. Too much respect for the game, its coaches, and players. But it would be stupid of us to keep throwing our JV kids to the wolves in that situation and possibly get them hurt by simply running the ball into their barrage. Again, fine if you leave your starters in, but not fine if all of a sudden you start bringing 6.
Would love to read everyone's opinions on this, either way. Thanks! I've never been afraid to chuck it up or throw screens in these situations. We were out on a team 49-0 at the half a few years ago and subbed in all of our depth in the second half. We're a Wing-T team and they left their studs in and were bringing between six and eight guys every down and planting our third string backs. So, I called a screen to our little bowling-ball, second string FB and he waddle 60 yards for the score. He about collapsed at the goal line. That got them to back off but their HC was ready to go to blows with me after the game. I just walked away and listened to him and his staff rant. I emailed him and told him he could expect the same thing if we played them again and he pulled that crap. Sure enough, we saw them in the play-offs a few weeks later and he pulled the same thing when we were up 42-0 at half. So, I called a PA and dumped it off to our third string X who caught it for a 50 yard score. They were bringing a CB blitz and just begging for it. He came unglued on the sideline and had to be restrained by his staff. This time, he kept bringing the pressure so I called screen after screen and Waggle after Waggle. The final score was 60-7. He was REALLY ready to throw some punches after that but his staff dragged him away and didn't let him even go through the handshake line, post-game. I certainly felt bad for the opposing team's players because the final score was embarrassing. But, my first duty is to protect my players and I couldn't do that if I was calling our run game right into their blitzes. I tried to call some Rocket and Jet sweeps but they would bring the CB right into the back's face when he motioned. |
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Post by coachvann on Nov 14, 2017 14:04:28 GMT -6
So, this year was a really rough year...only 3 seniors and I am at a 2A school and we played up for 6 games-3A and higher. We only had 24 kids this year. So teams were jumping on us pretty good. Teams would put in their 2nd team guys but we continued in our game plan. I needed our guys to have some success in what we were doing to build for next year. Granted we were a glorified JV team, so many of the coaches didn't mind if we continued to kick onside kicks, blitz, and score on their 2nd or 3rd team.
At the same time I didn't mind if they were throwing the ball and scoring on us either.
All that to say, play your scheme and do what you do. If you are an air raid system then continue to throw. We played a team that ran the split veer really well. If they continued to run the split veer they would score-but if they threw the ball then it was their way of calling off the dogs. He was throwing the whole second half-LOL!! We needed that help!
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Post by coachcb on Nov 14, 2017 14:26:10 GMT -6
This sort of happened to us this year where we were up big and put our back ups in, we have like 42 in 9-12 so when we empty the bench we empty the bench, other team all of a sudden starts doing all kinds of stuff on O they couldn't do vs our starters. Score 3 quick td's. Our HC got pissed and put the starters in next defense got the ball back and hung another td on them. They went and ran base stuff the rest of the game after that. Their coach was cool after the game actually apologized after the game said they were beat up and didn't have backup skill guys and it was the last regular season game. Said he would have done the same thing we did to stop the scoring. We were taking an absolute beating against a team a few years ago and our HC/OC left the starters in against their JV and started taking shots down the field. They were up by 49 at that point and we scored twice by picking on their tiny, slow CBs. They put their starters back in, went no-huddle, threw the ball around on our starters (they'd been running it all game) and scored in like thirty seconds. That put an end to our HC's bullchit in a hurry. |
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jbutch17
Freshmen Member
[F4:@JButch17]
Posts: 95
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Post by jbutch17 on Nov 14, 2017 14:47:49 GMT -6
Unless the sides are unevenly matched from the beginning the team that's trailing subs first....don't wanna fool around and let someone back in the game
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mikeyg
Sophomore Member
Posts: 154 
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Post by mikeyg on Nov 14, 2017 15:04:58 GMT -6
I am a firm believer that if I have the lead and I sub out and let my young bucks play you better do the same. I am giving you a chance to let your 2s and 3s get valuable playing time. Don't throw the ball around or be sending the house on my pups. I'm being graceful by letting them play. This is where I really like 8 man football. There is a mercy rule where if one team is up by 45 or more at halftime or any point after that the game is over. Over my career I have received and given them out. Once we were up by 4 touchdowns we would sub out. But if the other coach wanted to be a butt hole then we would release the hounds of war. We would throw the ball and blitz until we 45'd them. If I was in regular 11 man I'd hang as many points as I could, until he subbed out, just to rub it in the coach's face. And then tell him why I did it when I shook his hand "good game". We had a motto we said before games, "Don't let them mistake your kindness for weakness".
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 14, 2017 18:47:32 GMT -6
Has anyone ever used the officials to communicate their intentions to the other coach?
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Post by coachdubyah on Nov 14, 2017 20:20:37 GMT -6
Has anyone ever used the officials to communicate their intentions to the other coach? We typically do but you would be surprised as to how much people get “offended” by that. I don’t know. I’ve been on both ends. I just think every situation is different and you just have to make a judgement. Kids should always be the basis for your decision, but at the same time I think you need to be careful so as to not sell the farm on subbing. Do it a little at a time. That’s all I’m saying. |
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