choprip
Sophomore Member
Posts: 125 
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Post by choprip on Nov 8, 2017 7:35:41 GMT -6
This year was rough for me - we had an okay record but I have been at this school for several years now and am continually disgusted by how soft our players are.
I grew up in a community with a lower SES, which, in my opinion, leads to tougher, grittier kids (and of course there are cons as well, but we don't need to get into that...). I fell in love with the game because of the "hit a MFer in the face" mentality that can come with it and when I talk about physicality to my players, I see scared gazelles ready to glide away to safety. There were several moments in games this year when we were being pushed around up front and I felt entirely helpless; in that moment, told myself I couldn't do this anymore (sounds like someone who needs to take some time off, I know).
So, my question is, how do you try to instill toughness into your players?
I believe there are two types: toughness as I mentioned from above that comes from natural aggression...kids that are labeled "dirty" (not in a cheap sense, but kids who just naturally love to hit). The other being disciplined toughness...think military (you may knock me down but I will continue to get back up and come back at you over and over again).
Do you think there are more types? Do you try to build upon toughness in your program? Or is this truly a generational thing and us old guys just have to adapt...
I know there are military programs that will come out and do team building programs; anyone ever try those and was it beneficial?
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Post by coachwoodall on Nov 8, 2017 9:27:33 GMT -6
You have to build confidence in order to achieve success. There are many different components that go into being confident. So far as 'being tough' they have be confident in the attributes that will allow them to show toughness:
-Strength. Are they relatively as strong as their competition?
-Situational. Have you put them into situations where they have to be 'tough' to be successful?
-Schematic. Do they confidently know the wheres and hows of what is expected?
-Programmatic. Is the concept of being 'tough' being taught across the spectrum of your team?
Of course I've used this same argument/rationale to talk about causing turnovers. There are simply innate people that are just 'tough', just like there are those innate people that cause turnovers. If you are wanting to increase any area of expertise you have to make a concerted focus on finding ways to improve that area.
If you want your team to get tougher, then do tougher things. This will build confidence to exhibit toughness when the opportunity arises.
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Post by newhope on Nov 8, 2017 9:28:57 GMT -6
Yes, you can. Coach Woodall nails it.
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Post by dubber on Nov 8, 2017 10:42:16 GMT -6
You want the disciplined type of toughness......it can be coached.......it starts with player ownership and accountability.
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Post by blb on Nov 8, 2017 11:02:23 GMT -6
Strength training and conditioning help build mental toughness.
Teaching them how to defend themselves, block, and tackle (in addition to strength) develops confidence in their physical toughness.
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Post by joelee on Nov 8, 2017 11:08:43 GMT -6
Mental toughness is more important. These guys are hitting the nail on the head. Mental toughness allows you to do physically tough things. "hit a MFer in the face" doesn't win football games against good teams.
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Post by cwaltsmith on Nov 8, 2017 11:24:02 GMT -6
I think you can... because anyone that has it has learned it... However, I think that it is a process and won't be an overnight thing. I believe alot of what we deal with as coaches with kids today is, alot of kids don't know how to deal with failure on any level because parents have tried to protect them from any kind of failure their whole life. Im guilty myself with my own kids. If a guy a whipping you and he bigger and stronger. You have 2 options give up and continue to get whipped, or figure something out to neutralize his stregnthes. Kids struggle with this sometimes bc on other problems parents figure it out for them Just my humble opinion but I believe it can happen
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Post by 60zgo on Nov 8, 2017 20:59:20 GMT -6
1. Weight Room
2. Seven Man Sled
3. Full Pads. Every. Single. Day.
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bdm
Sophomore Member
Posts: 104
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Post by bdm on Nov 9, 2017 8:01:13 GMT -6
I am in the same boat as the guy in the OP. I am going to try and build toughness into my guys as well.
Anybody out there do competitive stuff in the off season to help build toughness and comradery? I like the idea of doing tough man competitions just didn't know what some of you guys have tried.
Also with player ownership, what kinds of decisions do you let the guys make? How exactly do you empower them?
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Post by larrymoe on Nov 9, 2017 8:42:23 GMT -6
For my money, there’s only one real answer- Weight Room, Weight Room, Weight Room.
A kid acts entirely differently if they know they can pick up 400lbs or get 300lbs out of a hole. The confidence they get in that room carries over to the field. Never known a consistently successful program who didn’t kill it year in and year out in the Weight Room.
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Post by phinfan on Nov 9, 2017 9:03:45 GMT -6
1. Weight Room 2. Seven Man Sled 3. Full Pads. Every. Single. Day. I agree with the first part whole heartedly. Being bigger and stronger leads to confidence which leads to physicality. I would also add in being in great shape. Nothing clouds your thinking and makes you soft like being tired. The 3rd one is the one I might disagree with. The 2 most physical teams on our schedule one has been in full pads twice, the first day allowed and the 3rd day, and hasn’t been in them since and the other doesn’t go full pads once the season starts. Both of them do go shells, 3 days a week for 1 and 2 days a week for the other. Both of these teams are extremely physical. I wouldn’t question the fact that these 2 would be among the top 5 or top 10 at worst, most physical teams in our classification. One is a perennial winner and the other has started winning with a new coach. One thing both of these programs believe in is an extensive strength program and have very good summer strength and conditioning programs. |
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Post by wiscohscoach on Nov 9, 2017 9:25:50 GMT -6
1. Weight Room 2. Seven Man Sled 3. Full Pads. Every. Single. Day. 3. That has nothing to do with making you tough. Beating the brains out of each other I would argue has the reverse effect. |
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Post by 60zgo on Nov 9, 2017 9:25:54 GMT -6
1. Weight Room 2. Seven Man Sled 3. Full Pads. Every. Single. Day. I agree with the first part whole heartedly. Being bigger and stronger leads to confidence which leads to physicality. I would also add in being in great shape. Nothing clouds your thinking and makes you soft like being tired. The 3rd one is the one I might disagree with. The 2 most physical teams on our schedule one has been in full pads twice, the first day allowed and the 3rd day, and hasn’t been in them since and the other doesn’t go full pads once the season starts. Both of them do go shells, 3 days a week for 1 and 2 days a week for the other. Both of these teams are extremely physical. I wouldn’t question the fact that these 2 would be among the top 5 or top 10 at worst, most physical teams in our classification. One is a perennial winner and the other has started winning with a new coach. One thing both of these programs believe in is an extensive strength program and have very good summer strength and conditioning programs. Like everything it depends on the situation. The best team I have ever been a part of never dressed in pads or shells. We went helmets and shorts because we would kill each other. That team also had four guys who played professionally. If you are talking kids who aren't very tough or physical going full pads will help them become more physical. At some point you have to back off, but every situation is different. |
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Post by clowndude on Nov 9, 2017 21:39:17 GMT -6
I don't think the example holds water of teams who are always tough and physical. Toughness is clearly a part of their culture. Just like there are always tough people, towns, cultures, etc. For example, I have a middle school group that is pretty tough. They are head hunting on the field. They squab at practice. They literally call each other out for competitions. My high school, mehhh. They have trouble even pretending to be that way. How do I get the H.S. group, who have some potential as athletes, to play and practice with that type of edge and violence?
I am using the weights.We were a lot stronger this year compared to years past. It did not have near the effect on toughness that I thought it would, but it was also just year 2.
Has anybody tried wresting, king of the ring, or sumo type competitions in the off-season? I know it comes with inherent risk of injury, but shoot, so does being soft.
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Post by 60zgo on Nov 9, 2017 22:08:46 GMT -6
1. Weight Room 2. Seven Man Sled 3. Full Pads. Every. Single. Day. 3. That has nothing to do with making you tough. Beating the brains out of each other I would argue has the reverse effect. It's worked for us. All I can say... But every team and every situation is different. Most of it comes down to what you believe as a coach frankly. Going full pads does not equal "beating the brains out of each other"... |
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Post by carookie on Nov 9, 2017 22:32:16 GMT -6
Even with the OPs attempt to define toughness I believe it has shot off into a number of definitions in this thread that fit each poster's individual definition.
The most prevalent being bandied about here seems to basically be physically strong- for that, weights seems to be the answer.
Confidence in one's abilities also seems to be a popular definition. I think that mostly comes from coaching and a repetition of techniques; the more you do it the more confident you are in it. Wt room plays a role there too (I'd be pretty confident if I was clearly stronger than my opponent). However, confidence can also come from having been in a difficult position before hand and overcoming it- this can be provided in practice.
Resiliency also appears to be a big one here too. This is shown on the football field by continually striving to perform at your best despite being at a disadvantage or difficult situation. I think this is what most closely fits the OPs idea, and in some ways can be developed through similar means as confidence. I think developing accountability can also accomplish the same task, as players will be more likely to remain resilient (or at least attempt resiliency) if they feel an external motivation to (ie the band of brothers idea). Or at the very least if they have pride and don't want to be further embarrassed.
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Post by Coach Vint on Nov 10, 2017 11:46:41 GMT -6
There are two kinds of toughness. 1. Physical Toughness. This is the love of using your shoulder pads and hitting a man. This starts with the weight room, as the stronger you are, the more force you will hit with. This is where your cleans, squats, and pulls come in. The more hip explosion and posterior chain strength you have, the more explosive you will hit. The second way you build this is through teaching them how to be physical when the block, run, tackle, and come off the ball. We spend a lot of time on both of these. We start practice each day with a board drill. Two guys line up, come off the ball, and try to run their man back. It is a one-on-one physical drill with a very competitive aspect. Everyone knows we start the day with this drill, and they are geared up. We also do a blocking circuit with the offense. Everyone hits the sled. Everyone learns to cut. Everyone learns to fit a man and run their feet.
2. Mental Toughness. This is a big part of our success. This is where you put kids in stressful, adverse situations, and teach them how to respond. We want to teach them how to win when things are not going your way. We teach them how to move on to the next play. We teach them how to respond when a man is talking trash and hitting you late. Mental Toughness is a year round deal. In the weight room do you hold them accountable for having the right weight on the bar? Do you hold them accountable when they don't get to parallel? Do you hold them accountable when they try to cut a rep or a set? This all builds mental toughness. We hold them accountable for their body language. No bad body language is allowed.
We define mental toughness as the ability to overcome adversity and failure without a loss of effort, attitude, or enthusiasm. When things go bad, what do you do? What does your attitude say? What does your body language say?
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Post by coachbillo on Nov 10, 2017 12:57:03 GMT -6
To me the mental toughness outweighs the physical aspect in terms of building a program. There is no doubt that every coach wants to have their team as big, strong and fast as they can, but as stated earlier that won't always win you games. Been around high school kids who can through weight around like D1 players but not an ounce of that translates to the field. Discipline is the key in developing mental toughness in my mind. How hard can you make it on players to walk the line and do the right things, not skipping reps, not having bad body language, not talking down to teammates. If those things can be instilled by coaches then eventually the kids will police themselves on what the standard of THEIR program is. Developing both mental and physical toughness can happen in the weight room and that can come from things like command lifting, consequences that occur immediately for doing something that doesn't make themselves or the team better, and demanding nothing but their best for each other and holding them accountable to that.
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Post by pistolwhipped on Nov 10, 2017 13:42:57 GMT -6
I took over a program on JAN 1 of this year.
The first thing I did was assess the weightroom standards.
The 2nd thing I did was strip their bars and we did goblet squats with low weight until 100% of the kids knew that the standard was getting to parallel depth.
Set your standard and hold them accountable. Soon enough the kids will police themselves and hold each other accountable for how deep they squat.
If you tell them to touch the line on a gasser, then hold them accountable to that. That's toughness.
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Post by aceback76 on Nov 10, 2017 13:43:52 GMT -6
This year was rough for me - we had an okay record but I have been at this school for several years now and am continually disgusted by how soft our players are. I grew up in a community with a lower SES, which, in my opinion, leads to tougher, grittier kids (and of course there are cons as well, but we don't need to get into that...). I fell in love with the game because of the "hit a MFer in the face" mentality that can come with it and when I talk about physicality to my players, I see scared gazelles ready to glide away to safety. There were several moments in games this year when we were being pushed around up front and I felt entirely helpless; in that moment, told myself I couldn't do this anymore (sounds like someone who needs to take some time off, I know). So, my question is, how do you try to instill toughness into your players? I believe there are two types: toughness as I mentioned from above that comes from natural aggression...kids that are labeled "dirty" (not in a cheap sense, but kids who just naturally love to hit). The other being disciplined toughness...think military (you may knock me down but I will continue to get back up and come back at you over and over again). Do you think there are more types? Do you try to build upon toughness in your program? Or is this truly a generational thing and us old guys just have to adapt... I know there are military programs that will come out and do team building programs; anyone ever try those and was it beneficial? Mat Drills (of the wrestling variety but not over 15 seconds in duration each) is the best thing we have done in developing toughness. Done in OUT-OF-SEASON: Broken down into position groups of no about 15-20. In Wrestling room on full Wrestling mat: EXAMPLE (these are but a few): a. Players start on knees, facing each other locked up. On command, they try to pin each other. Don't let them stand up. On comand of "Ready Ready" they spring up to a 2 point position, working their feet and sprint off the mat. b. Then they sprint back on mat and one player is on offense (up) and one on defense (down). On command, they begin to wrestle. On command "Ready Ready" they spring up in football position, working their feet and sprint off the mat. c. Next they sprint back on mat and one player voluntarily pins the other player. On command , the player pinned tries to get up. Then on command of "Ready Ready" they spring up in a football position, working their feet and sprint off the mat. |
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center
Junior Member
Posts: 484
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Post by center on Nov 10, 2017 19:23:52 GMT -6
Alternative viewpoint here. I believe in the weight room, accountability, discipline, as much as any football coach.
But when I watch film of struggling teams and when we have struggled there are tons of mental assignment errors. They just mentally screw up more than good teams.
Now you can probably trace some of this to physical toughness. But to me this also comes back to teaching and the role of the coach.
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Post by Coach Vint on Nov 11, 2017 19:36:33 GMT -6
Alternative viewpoint here. I believe in the weight room, accountability, discipline, as much as any football coach. But when I watch film of struggling teams and when we have struggled there are tons of mental assignment errors. They just mentally screw up more than good teams. Now you can probably trace some of this to physical toughness. But to me this also comes back to teaching and the role of the coach. This is where I believe a great off-season program can greatly reduce the number of mental mistakes on the field. If kids are allowed to show up late, skip reps, and do whatever they want, they will do the same thing during the season. They will make mental mistakes and get stupid penalties. If you have an off-season where they are held accountable to doing things the right way all the time, you will have less mental mistakes on the field. |
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Post by groundchuck on Nov 11, 2017 20:30:10 GMT -6
Alternative viewpoint here. I believe in the weight room, accountability, discipline, as much as any football coach. But when I watch film of struggling teams and when we have struggled there are tons of mental assignment errors. They just mentally screw up more than good teams. Now you can probably trace some of this to physical toughness. But to me this also comes back to teaching and the role of the coach. This is where I believe a great off-season program can greatly reduce the number of mental mistakes on the field. If kids are allowed to show up late, skip reps, and do whatever they want, they will do the same thing during the season. They will make mental mistakes and get stupid penalties. If you have an off-season where they are held accountable to doing things the right way all the time, you will have less mental mistakes on the field. BINGO! |
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coachriley
Junior Member
"Tough times don't last; Tough people do."
Posts: 406
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Post by coachriley on Nov 11, 2017 21:03:53 GMT -6
I'm still a relatively young coach, but I think the 2 most important things in developing toughness on the field are the weight room and wrestling.
Other coaches have brought up obviously the physical aspect where if a kid knows how much weight he is use to pushing in the weight room, and that will carry over to the field. He knows that he can do something because he has already done it before, so to speak.
This is my 3rd year coaching wrestling and I absolutely love it, even if the kids don't compete in tournaments, having to get through the workouts and physicality of wrestling, and also knowing it is truly 1 on 1, starts changing how kids minds are wired. I am trying to get every football player I can out for wrestling, even if they don't want to do the tournaments, just because of these other things they will learn from it.
Obviously there are other things that go into it, but these would be the first things I would focus on.
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Post by sweep26 on Nov 12, 2017 11:19:12 GMT -6
Alternative viewpoint here. I believe in the weight room, accountability, discipline, as much as any football coach. But when I watch film of struggling teams and when we have struggled there are tons of mental assignment errors. They just mentally screw up more than good teams. Now you can probably trace some of this to physical toughness. But to me this also comes back to teaching and the role of the coach. This is where I believe a great off-season program can greatly reduce the number of mental mistakes on the field. If kids are allowed to show up late, skip reps, and do whatever they want, they will do the same thing during the season. They will make mental mistakes and get stupid penalties. If you have an off-season where they are held accountable to doing things the right way all the time, you will have less mental mistakes on the field. To me this is the key to successful coaching...period! What ever you are doing...insist that everyone does it correctly (or at least to the very best of their God given ability). If it is worth doing it is worth doing right!! This includes their effort to become successful in whatever the task at hand may be. Be consistent every day regarding expectations...this cannot be a sometimes thing. Hold EVERYONE accountable!! Lastly...CELEBRATE EXCELLENCE!! |
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coachdfrompa
Freshmen Member
Talent does what it can. Genius does what it must.
Posts: 36
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Post by coachdfrompa on Nov 16, 2017 8:08:27 GMT -6
Great topic here.
I think it is important to address that we really are talking about two different types of toughness; mental and physical.
In the OP post, he states that there were times he felt helpless because his players were getting pushed around. I have had a similar situation several times this year. But, I can't say that my kids weren't physically tough....they competed, kept getting up and getting after it, and never quit. The issue was that they weren't physically as big as some of the lines they were going against. With that type of thing, the Physics just weren't in our favor.
Granted, I do realize that it isn't always the bigger stronger player that wins. But, you are routinely giving up 50 to 60 pounds to your opponent, it doesn't matter how many times you tell them to throw their body weight into someone, they probably wont come out on top. Now, you can help get around some of that by slanting, stemming, etc, but that's another conversation for another day. My 5'9" 180 pound 5 tech was our toughest lineman, but there were times where he would give up 70 pounds to his opponent, and if that opponent latched on to him, he was losing that play. Didn't make him less tough; its just the physics weren't in his favor.
I guess what I am trying to say is that physically strong and physically tough aren't always the same thing, in my opinion. I think overall toughness, if you have to define it, combines both physical toughness and mental toughness with the willingness to compete, regardless of the circumstances that surround you.
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jbutch17
Freshmen Member
[F4:@JButch17]
Posts: 95
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Post by jbutch17 on Nov 16, 2017 12:41:46 GMT -6
If anybody figures out how to teach toughness, let me know.
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Post by silkyice on Nov 16, 2017 13:00:07 GMT -6
If anybody figures out how to teach toughness, let me know. I do understand your point and no one has the end all be all solution. But, do tough things. Football is tough. Lift hard and heavy. Condition to get in shape is tough. Be reasonable though. Or practice super fast so you don't have to run. Hit dummies hard. Teach them how to hit and tackle properly. Hit each other. Be reasonable though. Praise any toughness at all. A kid who isn't tough, but finally hits someone harder than he did last week or makes a tackle or whatever, praise him instead of belittle him. Remember that kids grow up and get tougher if they will stick with it. Be demanding, but again, be reasonable and remember no one is a finished product. Possibly the most important point. Coach em' up. If they truly know fundamentals and techniques. If they truly know what they are supposed to do and when and how to do it. If they have lifted hard. If they are in shape. If you have given them opportunities to grow up. You will find that most all kids will end up being TOUGH. |
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jbutch17
Freshmen Member
[F4:@JButch17]
Posts: 95
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Post by jbutch17 on Nov 16, 2017 13:50:38 GMT -6
If anybody figures out how to teach toughness, let me know. I do understand your point and no one has the end all be all solution. But, do tough things. Football is tough. Lift hard and heavy. Condition to get in shape is tough. Be reasonable though. Or practice super fast so you don't have to run. Hit dummies hard. Teach them how to hit and tackle properly. Hit each other. Be reasonable though. Praise any toughness at all. A kid who isn't tough, but finally hits someone harder than he did last week or makes a tackle or whatever, praise him instead of belittle him. Remember that kids grow up and get tougher if they will stick with it. Be demanding, but again, be reasonable and remember no one is a finished product. Possibly the most important point. Coach em' up. If they truly know fundamentals and techniques. If they truly know what they are supposed to do and when and how to do it. If they have lifted hard. If they are in shape. If you have given them opportunities to grow up. You will find that most all kids will end up being TOUGH. These exact things you've mentioned are what I've had the most successes with. |
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Post by 50slantstrong on Nov 16, 2017 13:52:38 GMT -6
A relentless weight room and culture that refuses to accept excuses.
Side note: from my observations, if a coach has to get to the point he's harping on his kids to "get tough", he's already lost that battle...
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