mayo
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Post by mayo on Oct 15, 2017 13:41:45 GMT -6
I heard a lot coaches saying they can't coach college or Nfl because they don't know as much, but there is quite a few high school coaches coaching cfb today. How much do coaches in college or even nfl know more than us high school coaches?
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Post by blb on Oct 15, 2017 14:15:49 GMT -6
I heard a lot coaches saying they can't coach college or Nfl because they don't know as much, but there is quite a few high school coaches coaching cfb today. How much do coaches in college or even nfl know more than us high school coaches?
What do you mean "know more than..."?
CFB coaches have to know how to recruit.
NFL coaches have to know how to deal with grown men making more money than they are.
It's not about Xs and Os.
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Post by carookie on Oct 15, 2017 16:13:00 GMT -6
I've coached with a few coaches who have coached in the NFL and D1; for the most part they knew their football (techniques, X & Os, etc). But I have known plenty of HS coaches, who never coached a game above the HS level, who knew as much football as those who had coached at higher levels. I've also known a few guys who coached at college who had a relatively limited knowledge of football.
To be certain, there is a greater amount of X & O knowledge and variety of technique required on a regular basis in the NFL compared to most HS teams; but its nothing that can't be learned or that requires some special talent to grasp.
Honestly, I don't think there is much of a difference between 90% of the coaches out there in regards to ability and capability. So much of where you end up is how much effort you put forth, how much crap are you willing to go through to get there (you gonna GA and work for free for a couple years), and of course who you know. Former NFL players get coaching jobs because they already know who to talk to to get a job.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2017 16:49:16 GMT -6
Ive sat with quite a few NFL and NCAA coaches over the years, i tend to seek those coaches out in clinic settings
Now I can't speak for everyone , but they know more than I do, they know A LOT more than I do that's why they are where they are, and are able to make football a career .
When they speak I shut up and listen, even moreso i ask more questions than anyone they've ever met, and take as many notes as I can.
I hang around to get answers to any questions I have and always try to establish some form of relationship or at least a way to communicate with them.
Ill always be a student of the game
Just my 2
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2017 18:51:10 GMT -6
I heard a lot coaches saying they can't coach college or Nfl because they don't know as much, but there is quite a few high school coaches coaching cfb today. How much do coaches in college or even nfl know more than us high school coaches?
What do you mean "know more than..."?
CFB coaches have to know how to recruit.
NFL coaches have to know how to deal with grown men making more money than they are.
It's not about Xs and Os.
The fans (and NFL and a lot of CFB coaches) would tell you different. That doesn't mean it's true, but we all know that guys who have coached (or maybe just played) at higher levels can pretty much get any HS job they want because it's assumed they are just more knowledgeable and better than everyone else because of their "pedigree." Everyone expects them to be miracle workers. A while back I saw Mike Sherman speak at a clinic. He'd come out of retirement after being HC of the Green Bay Packers (was 57-39) and Texas A&M (25-25 record) to take over a HS team. He went 4-18 in 2 years. He's far from the only guy to have that kind of rough transition.
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Post by fkaboneyard on Oct 15, 2017 21:43:18 GMT -6
IMO, the only thing that HS & NFL have in common is the sport. Everything else - player capability, motivation, knowledge, opportunity, etc. is different. Comparing the two is an apples & oranges comparison.
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Post by coachcb on Oct 16, 2017 10:14:53 GMT -6
It's way more about WHO you know that WHAT you know when you're trying to climb up that ladder. You obviously have to know your stuff if you're going to make it at the college and NFL level but you need to be networked with coaches at some pretty high tiers if you're going to make those kinds of vertical moves.
I have been to many FCS and FBS level spring practices as I get quality drills and tips from those college coaches that are willing to share. At those practices, I have been privy to many coaches that were very technical and knew their positions inside and out. I got great information from those guys. But... I have also seen my fair share of coaches that I wasn't impressed with, for a variety of reasons.
I watched the spring practices at an FCS school that went to the semi-finals the next year and was amazed that their WR coach had made it to that level. I watched his drills and he was all over the place with the WR alignments, stances, footwork on routes, breaking points on routes blocking technique, etc..etc.. "On our 'one' routes (should be a one step slant) we will break at one step with out inside foot up against man-man, we will break at 5 yards or three steps, whichever comes first with our outside foot up against zone!!" The players were so friggin' confused, it was ridiculous.
To make matters worse, he'd grab a kid that would make a mistake (because he wasn't coaching for chit) scream at them and then send them on a run.
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Post by blb on Oct 16, 2017 10:38:22 GMT -6
It's way more about WHO you know that WHAT you know when you're trying to climb up that ladder. You obviously have to know your stuff if you're going to make it at the college and NFL level but you need to be networked with coaches at some pretty high tiers if you're going to make those kinds of vertical moves. I have been to many FCS and FBS level spring practices as I get quality drills and tips from those college coaches that are willing to share. At those practices, I have been privy to many coaches that were very technical and knew their positions inside and out. I got great information from those guys. But... I have also seen my fair share of coaches that I wasn't impressed with, for a variety of reasons. I watched the spring practices at an FCS school that went to the semi-finals the next year and was amazed that their WR coach had made it to that level. I watched his drills and he was all over the place with the WR alignments, stances, footwork on routes, breaking points on routes blocking technique, etc..etc.. "On our 'one' routes (should be a one step slant) we will break at one step with out inside foot up against man-man, we will break at 5 yards or three steps, whichever comes first with our outside foot up against zone!!" The players were so friggin' confused, it was ridiculous. To make matters worse, he'd grab a kid that would make a mistake (because he wasn't coaching for chit) scream at them and then send them on a run.
I heard Bill Snyder, the great Kansas State coach, say at a clinic not to assume just because somebody is a college or NFL coach that they are a GOOD coach.
Nevertheless as someone has already posted, the jobs are much different than coaching HS football.
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Post by coachcb on Oct 16, 2017 10:52:43 GMT -6
It's way more about WHO you know that WHAT you know when you're trying to climb up that ladder. You obviously have to know your stuff if you're going to make it at the college and NFL level but you need to be networked with coaches at some pretty high tiers if you're going to make those kinds of vertical moves. I have been to many FCS and FBS level spring practices as I get quality drills and tips from those college coaches that are willing to share. At those practices, I have been privy to many coaches that were very technical and knew their positions inside and out. I got great information from those guys. But... I have also seen my fair share of coaches that I wasn't impressed with, for a variety of reasons. I watched the spring practices at an FCS school that went to the semi-finals the next year and was amazed that their WR coach had made it to that level. I watched his drills and he was all over the place with the WR alignments, stances, footwork on routes, breaking points on routes blocking technique, etc..etc.. "On our 'one' routes (should be a one step slant) we will break at one step with out inside foot up against man-man, we will break at 5 yards or three steps, whichever comes first with our outside foot up against zone!!" The players were so friggin' confused, it was ridiculous. To make matters worse, he'd grab a kid that would make a mistake (because he wasn't coaching for chit) scream at them and then send them on a run.
I heard Bill Snyder, the great Kansas State coach, say at a clinic not to assume just because somebody is a college or NFL coach that they are a GOOD coach.
Nevertheless as someone has already posted, the jobs are much different than coaching HS football.
I was telling a younger assistant on our staff that he could find just as much useful information in a free webinar run by a good high school coach as he could by paying out the teeth to listen to a FBS speaker at a clinic. A good coach is a good coach; it's pretty simple math. And, yes, coaching at the college or NFL level is a whole different animal. I imagine the coach I described in my earlier post was one helluva recruiter and that was how he kept his job. They had some serious talent at their WR positions.
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Post by fshamrock on Oct 16, 2017 11:13:05 GMT -6
I heard an NFL guy at a clinic once who had coached at all 3 levels, he said the biggest different in the NFL is that you have a very slim margin of error with those players...they don't care about your motivational slogans or your positive attitude, the only thing they wan't to know is if you can teach them something that will make them better so they can stay in the league and keep getting paid...once they decide you don't know anything that can help them..they won't listen to you.
The guy went on to describe specific drills they worked as offensive lineman to counter the inside long arm move in pass rush that JJ Watt and few others were killing everybody with that year....the technique work is a lot more detailed on that level
I think honestly that any of use who are pretty solid coaches could probably go join an NFL staff and not be too far behind on the X's and O's...but getting those players to pay attention to what we have to say is a whole nother animal
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Post by carookie on Oct 16, 2017 11:50:08 GMT -6
I heard an NFL guy at a clinic once who had coached at all 3 levels, he said the biggest different in the NFL is that you have a very slim margin of error with those players...they don't care about your motivational slogans or your positive attitude, the only thing they wan't to know is if you can teach them something that will make them better so they can stay in the league and keep getting paid...once they decide you don't know anything that can help them..they won't listen to you. The guy went on to describe specific drills they worked as offensive lineman to counter the inside long arm move in pass rush that JJ Watt and few others were killing everybody with that year....the technique work is a lot more detailed on that level I think honestly that any of use who are pretty solid coaches could probably go join an NFL staff and not be too far behind on the X's and O's...but getting those players to pay attention to what we have to say is a whole nother animal I can attest to this. I had a buddy who took an NFL position coach job a while back; one of his players was a surefire HOFer whereas my buddy had only coached as high as a position coach at D1. The HOFer called him out in his first positional meeting claiming "he'd forgotten more football" than his new coach knew. My friend stood his ground, pointed out some techniques the HOFer used a decade back (showing he knew his stuff), and how when the HOFer is off filming commercials during his off time he'd be breaking down more film of the opponent and getting his reports ready so the player could succeed (showing that he could help the team improve). The player backed down and soon they were all on the same page. Now this guy had just been hired off the staff of a top 20 FBS program and still had to defend his abilities right off the bat. For many people, they care more about your resume than your abilities.
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Post by 50slantstrong on Oct 16, 2017 12:37:43 GMT -6
It's not what you know, it's who you know....
I've literally sat in a Glazier clinic with a college "coach" who didn't know what trap was. Didn't know what a reach block was either. But because he played for a well-known coach in college and made the right friends when graduated, he had no problem getting a college coaching job over guys who were schematically superior.
Truth be told, I don't think there's much difference between your average non-power 5 conference college position coach and your competitive high school coordinators. The biggest difference is the friends they've made in their careers.
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Post by bignose on Oct 16, 2017 13:10:34 GMT -6
A while back I saw Mike Sherman speak at a clinic. He'd come out of retirement after being HC of the Green Bay Packers (was 57-39) and Texas A&M (25-25 record) to take over a HS team. He went 4-18 in 2 years. He's far from the only guy to have that kind of rough transition.
I know the Coach who has replaced Mike Sherman. He is currently 3-3. His background involved 3 consecutive trips to his previous State's 4A (large school) finals or semi-finals. Coaching High School kids is an entire different deal than coaching on the next levels. There are endless intangibles of teaching and coaching adolescents that are not going to occur at the upper levels. And although the distractions are present at all levels, you do not have the competition for attention and focus that you will with the high school age athlete. The leverage I have with the kids is their love of the game, and dedication to their team. For the college level athlete, it is what keeps them in school. The coach has leverage that way. For the Pros, it is their JOB. At that level it ceases to be "just a game". It is an incredibly competitive, physically intense, high risk, high paying career with a very limited career time span, somewhere between 2 and 4 years. The other significant differences are time and resources. I sincerely doubt that the majority of High School Coaches spend as much time on each individual nuance of technique that they do in college and the Pros. Some of those skills are refined down to a gnat's ass. I'm more concerned with things like my kids getting into a proper stance, the basic fundamentals. And they don't have the video resources available at the higher levels. To that end, Hudl and the internet has made evaluation and access to resources easier than ever. And not too many High School Coaches are going to be able to spend 10-12 hours per day working on their information. I have been to many clinics, and I have walked out of lectures when the coaches start talking about things that my kids can't do, or I don't have time to teach. The best clinicians for High School level football are High School Coaches, or guys that started out coaching High School ball, not the guy who went D1 and then worked as a GA for Famous Coach so and So at Enormous State University. Our realities are different.
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Post by RuningOutOfOptions on Oct 16, 2017 13:16:10 GMT -6
From the ones I have spoken with, college and pro coaches have more time to spend watching film ("can you watch more film than we do already?!" was my reaction to that) and it's different. Skip a High School practice, you miss some playing time on Friday, skip college practice and you might have lost a scholarship and in the pro's you loose money.
Plus what people have said above: handling grown men who make more than you and recruiting.
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Post by **** on Oct 16, 2017 13:34:51 GMT -6
I heard an NFL guy at a clinic once who had coached at all 3 levels, he said the biggest different in the NFL is that you have a very slim margin of error with those players...they don't care about your motivational slogans or your positive attitude, the only thing they wan't to know is if you can teach them something that will make them better so they can stay in the league and keep getting paid...once they decide you don't know anything that can help them..they won't listen to you. The guy went on to describe specific drills they worked as offensive lineman to counter the inside long arm move in pass rush that JJ Watt and few others were killing everybody with that year....the technique work is a lot more detailed on that level I think honestly that any of use who are pretty solid coaches could probably go join an NFL staff and not be too far behind on the X's and O's...but getting those players to pay attention to what we have to say is a whole nother animal I can attest to this. I had a buddy who took an NFL position coach job a while back; one of his players was a surefire HOFer whereas my buddy had only coached as high as a position coach at D1. The HOFer called him out in his first positional meeting claiming "he'd forgotten more football" than his new coach knew. My friend stood his ground, pointed out some techniques the HOFer used a decade back (showing he knew his stuff), and how when the HOFer is off filming commercials during his off time he'd be breaking down more film of the opponent and getting his reports ready so the player could succeed (showing that he could help the team improve). The player backed down and soon they were all on the same page. Now this guy had just been hired off the staff of a top 20 FBS program and still had to defend his abilities right off the bat. For many people, they care more about your resume than your abilities. 1,000,000% This
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Post by coachphillip on Oct 16, 2017 18:33:33 GMT -6
I don’t think I could coach pro ball just because I don’t love football itself enough to sit through the tediousness. That’s just me though.
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Post by wingtol on Oct 17, 2017 7:05:13 GMT -6
There was a story in a book about Saban when he was in Miami. During some practice he went nuts on the defense and told them to line up for gasers or something. A DL went and got water and sat down. Saban started flipping on him cussing at him and all. DL said it's in my contract Nick that I don't do extra or punishment running. Saban kept screaming saying calling me coach Saban. Player said okay Nick and called him Nick all season. That's what you deal with in the NFL so you better understand that more than the X and O's to coach in the league.
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Post by silkyice on Oct 17, 2017 7:45:35 GMT -6
It is all just different skill sets.
College head coach. Run the business. Organization. Hire great coaches. RECRUIT!!! Keep boosters happy. You ain't cutting grass, handing out equipment, you aren't running the weight room, checking on grades. Heck, you honestly don't even have to coach. Of course they do coach.
College OC and DC. These guys have to be the X and O's brains.
College position coaches. These guys really just have to do what they are told. It would be great if the really are exceptional at techniques and x and o's, but I don't think this is necessary if they can do what the OC and DC want them to do. Some have to be better actual coaches. For instance, you aren't going to find some slappy who is the o line coach. Some position coaches can be awful, but can recruit like a receivers coach or running back coach. That is a gross over generalization of course.
Of course a head coach wants to hire assistants that are great at x and o's, fundamentals, watching film, and recruiting. But doubt there are many guys who can do all that, because that is a HUGE skill set and who has the time to be great at all that. So the head coach makes sure he hires all types of coaches!!
I think most quality high school coaches who work hard could be an assistant at a d1 school as far as X and O's are concerned. But can you recruit? Do you have the connections to recruit?
I do not think that just because you are a college assistant coach that you can be a good high school coach. Or even a good OC/DC for that matter.
I do not think that even great college head coaches would necessarily be great high school head coaches. It is just different.
Last thing, of course the average college coach is superior to the average high school coach. But the top 20% of high school coaches are much much better than the bottom 20% of college coaches. Made up that number. Feel free to change to 10%, 1%, 5%.
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Post by coachcb on Oct 17, 2017 8:22:58 GMT -6
It is all just different skill sets. College head coach. Run the business. Organization. Hire great coaches. RECRUIT!!! Keep boosters happy. You ain't cutting grass, handing out equipment, you aren't running the weight room, checking on grades. Heck, you honestly don't even have to coach. Of course they do coach. College OC and DC. These guys have to be the X and O's brains. College position coaches. These guys really just have to do what they are told. It would be great if the really are exceptional at techniques and x and o's, but I don't think this is necessary if they can do what the OC and DC want them to do. Some have to be better actual coaches. For instance, you aren't going to find some slappy who is the o line coach. Some position coaches can be awful, but can recruit like a receivers coach or running back coach. That is a gross over generalization of course. Of course a head coach wants to hire assistants that are great at x and o's, fundamentals, watching film, and recruiting. But doubt there are many guys who can do all that, because that is a HUGE skill set and who has the time to be great at all that. So the head coach makes sure he hires all types of coaches!! I think most quality high school coaches who work hard could be an assistant at a d1 school as far as X and O's are concerned. But can you recruit? Do you have the connections to recruit?
I do not think that just because you are a college assistant coach that you can be a good high school coach. Or even a good OC/DC for that matter.
I do not think that even great college head coaches would necessarily be great high school head coaches. It is just different. Last thing, of course the average college coach is superior to the average high school coach. But the top 20% of high school coaches are much much better than the bottom 20% of college coaches. Made up that number. Feel free to change to 10%, 1%, 5%. I agree, whole-heartedly. I have seen great high school coaches become great coordinators at the small college level. They know their stuff and do they succeed. They generally move back to the high school level because they don't like traveling all over the place to recruit during the winter and spring. One guy was successful as a coordinator and I learned a lot from him and watching his practices. But the other apsects of the job burned him out and he was back at the high school level in a few short years. We had a high school HC in this state that was one of the most successful in state history. He moved up to the NAIA level as an HC and struggled. He had a few good years, initially, because he had some studs follow him from the high school he was at. But, he wasn't a quality recruiter otherwise and the program became one of the worst in their conference in a hurry. He's a helluva guy and and coach but he just doesn't have the personality to really draw quality recruits. And, I can't blame him. I know I would struggle to walk into a 17-18 year old kid's home, play used car salesmen with him and try to convince him to play for us. And, I'll be ridiculously blunt here; some of the WORST high school coaches I have worked with were former college coaches. The reality was simple; they had no idea how to relate to 14-18 year old kids. For example, one guy was a former FCS level DE and DL coach and he just couldn't understand why the kids couldn't wrong-arm a pull without repping the hell out of it. He had grown accustomed to working with high end athletes who either had that skill nailed down from high school or were athletic and experienced enough at their position to learn the skill with minimal effort. Another guy could grasp the fact that he didn't have a scholarship to dangle over the kids' heads and ran off some players because he was just an a--hole.
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