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Post by mariner42 on Jul 4, 2017 19:48:43 GMT -6
Was having a conversation with my best friend and he asked me what kind of situation I would prefer as a prospective HC one day. Our current HC is the HC/OC/DC/STC/S&C, the whole bit, he doesn't delegate. If I'm being honest, I don't have the personality to do that.
So, those of you who delegate: how much do you delegate and why are you in that situation? Do your coordinators run your system, do you mandate the system but give them free reign, do you just turn it over to them and say "have at it"?
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Post by carookie on Jul 4, 2017 19:58:22 GMT -6
I am a HC of a very small 8 man team and struggling to get coaches. I have one other guy who I am hoping will call the offense and I the defense; but he will be calling MY offense. This is due to me being probably more of a control freak than I need to be, and there being no coach available who could come up with a viable system to run (complete with drills outlined, etc.)
There was another coach I wanted to come aboard, who I would gladly hand over the offensive reins to with little control on my part; but I know the guy and he is a football coach who knows what he is doing, and is capable of implementing and running an offensive system. Moreover, he and I share a similar philosophy as to how we want an offense to be run.
The more I delegate is proportional to how much I trust the coach, even with that I would struggle to have someone come in and run a system that is markedly different from what I want done. Not that I think mine is the only way for an offense to be run, rather it is what I want done.
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Post by aceback76 on Jul 4, 2017 20:05:28 GMT -6
Was having a conversation with my best friend and he asked me what kind of situation I would prefer as a prospective HC one day. Our current HC is the HC/OC/DC/STC/S&C, the whole bit, he doesn't delegate. If I'm being honest, I don't have the personality to do that. So, those of you who delegate: how much do you delegate and why are you in that situation? Do your coordinators run your system, do you mandate the system but give them free reign, do you just turn it over to them and say "have at it"? Never delegate TOTAL authority. It stifles the creative input from other staff members, & if you are forced to withdraw it - you'll lose a friend!!! |
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Post by **** on Jul 4, 2017 21:14:53 GMT -6
Think it depends how much you trust the guys you have on staff. First year with current HC he wanted mainly 4-4 cover 3 and I added some things along the way. Now I pretty much have free reign, and he will pull me back when I am going too crazy.
I would not want to be the OC and DC. I think at a small school you could get away with it if you had to, but it's not ideal. I think being HC/ OC or DC /STC/S&C would be doable. If I had a guy that was passionate and knowledge as a STC or S&C I would give it up and guide them if needed. I would really have to trust somebody to be an OC or DC.
I don't see myself ever give up being an OC or DC until I am old and gray. I want the ability to do everything if needed, but not as an all the time gig.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 4, 2017 21:41:34 GMT -6
Was having a conversation with my best friend and he asked me what kind of situation I would prefer as a prospective HC one day. Our current HC is the HC/OC/DC/STC/S&C, the whole bit, he doesn't delegate. If I'm being honest, I don't have the personality to do that. So, those of you who delegate: how much do you delegate and why are you in that situation? Do your coordinators run your system, do you mandate the system but give them free reign, do you just turn it over to them and say "have at it"? I don't think there is any one set answer to this. It would depend on who the other coaches are, what the rest of the staff knows, my comfort level with those members, the program as a whole (and potential duties a HC might have to handle because of that) etc. I would say this though, if your HC (who if I remember correctly, is a fairly successful one ) doesn't seem to be doing a great job developing coaches if he is the actual coordinator of all of those things. Now, if you are claiming he is coordinator because all of the other coaches run his systems that is a different story. But if he is the one coordinating the offense, defense, special teams as well as in and off season Strength programs, I would say that is fairly inefficient. Now the most common talking point when this topic comes up is the "free reign" question. Again, I would say that depends on the situations and your staff. For example, if you were to hire say Steve Calande as an Offensive Line coach and OC, don't give him free reign unless you want to run the dbl wing. However, you probably also should be very wary of hiring someone like that and expecting great success if you tell them "I want you to run SBV" |
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Post by tippecanoe41 on Jul 4, 2017 22:14:52 GMT -6
I think if I was a HC I would delegate AT LEAST one side. Just depends on the coaches I have on staff as to whether I'd delegate the other. To me, IDEAL would be that I'm HC and there is a separate DC/OC. That being said, I have an idea of what I want to run on both sides. For instance, on offense, I like triple option in many forms. I REALLY like it. However, I have a couple fears about going all out to be an OPTION TEAM. (Most guys know there are teams that run option and there are option teams.) I see some teams run it in a way that I like and others in a way that I don't (just saying, from defending it for years, I see ways that make me cringe as a Defensive guy and ways that make me glad as a Defensive guy, haha) so if the perspective OC can explain his plan for offense in a way that dispels some of my fears about 'option all the way' offenses, then he'll have a lot of leeway to do what he wants. Same for defense. If a DC can explain to me why his defense works and the ways that he can easily mold his defense to fit all the different things we see week to week in today's game, then he'll have a lot of leeway.
I just mean to say that before I delegate either side of the ball, I'd put the potential coordinator through a lot of conversation and interviewing.
I want to learn their O's and D's completely. And, since I will make sure that I understand them completely, maybe I'm wrong, but I'd have them understand that if I say run instead of pass on 3rd and inches or blitz instead of play 7 man coverage, that they will do what I say, because I WILL make sure that I take the blame if anyone asks questions if I'm wrong. I wouldn't want to be a dictator, but I'd also like to make sure that I can say that I had a place in either destroying or helping my place as a winning or losing coach, haha.
This would be a RARE scenario, because I don't want to overrule them, and I'd hope that I have talked with them enough that I'd understand why they'd run Power instead of Power pass at midfield in 3rd & inches without having to overrule it.
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Post by funkfriss on Jul 5, 2017 7:14:03 GMT -6
Was having a conversation with my best friend and he asked me what kind of situation I would prefer as a prospective HC one day. Our current HC is the HC/OC/DC/STC/S&C, the whole bit, he doesn't delegate. If I'm being honest, I don't have the personality to do that. So, those of you who delegate: how much do you delegate and why are you in that situation? Do your coordinators run your system, do you mandate the system but give them free reign, do you just turn it over to them and say "have at it"? Currently I am HC/OC. My DC is somebody I've known for a long time and trust. Every year we talk and plan pre-season and for the most part I let him do what he wants, but I will definitely give suggestions, and if I feel it's needed, demands. During the season I let him and the defensive coaches come up with their game plan which they present to me. I feel it has worked out well. Now, I am in the process of grooming an OC. He is a second-year coach with a lot of drive and is learning quickly. He WILL run our system, but again, when I trust him to take over I will manage, but not micromanage. The day when I have two coaches I can trust to run the O and D will be a happy day for me! At that point I will be able to oversee it all and provide assistance when needed to both sides of the ball. I think that is the ideal role for me as a coach. |
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Post by blb on Jul 5, 2017 7:18:16 GMT -6
Ideally I would have a DC and a STs coordinator.
They would run my systems.
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Post by hunhdisciple on Jul 5, 2017 7:49:50 GMT -6
I think you've got to understand how you are as a coach, at any level.
If you're the HC and been a career OC before that, maybe find a DC. If you're a career DC, then I'd say find someone to be your OC.
I know a guy who is the HC/OC/DC/STC/S&C. I get that its his show, but he is not an offensive guy. Apparently he will frequently make incorrect formation calls or call something and then say something to the effect of "Dang, I didn't want to call that." He justifies having total control as it being "his job" on the line. I know several of the people on his staff, and I would gladly trust some of them to call O.
I had a HC starting out, who gladly gave things for guys to do. We always had an OC and DC, although the OC was more of a consultant role. The DC got pretty much limitless control on what to do. He worked with then to develop a system he thought would work well for us, and then let then do what they wanted to do. He was involved with the gameplanning (obviously) but the DC could be his own on Friday.
I don't think either one is more or less correct, and it all depends on who you are and what you have. But I think if you're going to do it all, you have to make sure everyone trusts you to be good at it. And you better know exactly what you want to do, on both sides. And I'm not talking about a system, but more in game. When it's a short yardage with the game potentially in the balance, what are you going to do? If you're scrambling to find something and end up seemingly settling with something to avoid a delay of game, you might need to give something up. If you can quickly know what you're doing or what needs to be done, you're good to go.
I don't ever want to be an HC, at least not right now, so I can't say what I would or wouldn't have done. But, as an asst, if I don't trust your ability to do it, then there are issues. If there isn't asst buy in, then you've got problems.
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Post by KYCoach2331 on Jul 5, 2017 8:30:29 GMT -6
I'd have to trust someone A LOT of I was a HC to give up one side of the ball completely. I could see myself giving up play calling but I'd be very heavily involved in that side of the ball, likely running what I wanted.
But obviously the more you trust the person the more you allow them to do I guess. I won't know probably until I'm actually the HC. I can imagine calling both sides and special teams would be a headache
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 5, 2017 8:46:50 GMT -6
I'd have to trust someone A LOT of I was a HC to give up one side of the ball completely. I could see myself giving up play calling but I'd be very heavily involved in that side of the ball, likely running what I wanted. But obviously the more you trust the person the more you allow them to do I guess. I won't know probably until I'm actually the HC. I can imagine calling both sides and special teams would be a headache I think this post underscores the importance or recognizing the difference between coordinator, playcaller, and "system decider/designer" (couldn't think of a better term) Being the offensive/defensive coordinator of a football team does not necessarily mean being responsible for designing or deciding on a system. It means coordinating that system. |
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Post by s73 on Jul 5, 2017 8:48:14 GMT -6
IMO it comes down to experience and philosophy. If you have a young guy then you will probably need to be more involved and groom him to match your philosophy.
If on the other hand you have an experienced guy who already has achieved solid results then I think you get out of the way some.
For me, my DC started out as a youngster but was a hard worker. He understood defense well, but he did not know much about offense. He was a former college LB who knew the inside and outs of his position but never really had to put the "whole picture" together. So he needed help with that. For example, he understood open & closed windows on a run but needed to see where the other positions fit into the run game.
It's now been 6 years and he has much more reign than in the past. We still discuss game plan but we partner much more than mentor/ pupil. He has developed a lot of ownership of our defense and acts as the lead voice for defense to our team now.
In the off season we review and make changes together.
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Post by newhope on Jul 5, 2017 9:37:21 GMT -6
I run the offense and delegate the DC, STC and S&C. I have final say on everything. I get involved with the defense if I don't think what they're doing is sound or if I have suggestions. They do the planning, they run it by me. Special teams we do my punt, my kickoff return. I have approval on all the rest. I have a S&C coach I trust completely, it's his show. IMO, you can't do all of it and it be done well.
I think staff also dictates what you do. I was at a small school for many years. I didn't have anyone who could be OC, DC, Special Teams--pretty much any of it. I was lucky to get coaches, period. I'm no longer in that position, so I'm able to hire people that I can delegate things to.
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Post by spartan on Jul 5, 2017 18:48:43 GMT -6
I hire smart guys to run the defense that are great teachers and stay out of their hair. I control Offense and punt team. Special team guy controls rest. Create ownership.
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nhs40
Freshmen Member
Posts: 64
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Post by nhs40 on Jul 6, 2017 17:38:40 GMT -6
I was that guy doing HC, OC, DC , STC, S&C a year ago. I had 3 other coaches that had a total of 5 years experience, with one of those that I hired in July before camp. It was exhausting. Friday nights were miserable because I didn't feel like I could completely process everything before having to think about something else. The young guys learned a lot and did a good job, but we're not ready for autonomy in game planning, scouting, etc. Being able to delegate to guys that will run what you believe in (even if not your stuff) would be the ideal setting I believe.
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Post by jcfullbr on Jul 6, 2017 18:31:41 GMT -6
I know you're looking for specifics and not semantics or philosophy but I'm pretty new to the HC game and something I read or heard right after I got hired that will stick with me forever: You delegate authority as you see fit, you don't delegate responsibility - EVERYTHING is your responsibility.
That being said I was STC for newhope and the coach who followed him, and then again at another school. I was an OC for a short stint too. I feel like I can delegate that authority and still have a good idea of what's going on, but at the moment I'm DC.
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Post by olinecoach61 on Jul 18, 2017 17:41:28 GMT -6
I look for great people and let them coach. We go over everything but the defense and specials coordinators have great independence. I run the offense, I make suggestions here and there but pretty much let em go
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Post by huddlehut on Jul 18, 2017 18:01:46 GMT -6
If you cannot trust someone completely, don't delegate an important job to them. If you trust them, let them go to work.
Or... Do everything by yourself and work yourself to death.
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Post by Defcord on Jul 19, 2017 13:19:03 GMT -6
I did the worst of both worlds when I was a head coach. I didn't give my good coaches enough responsibility and gave my bad coaches too much.
This is a tough juggling act and one of the reasons I don't want to be a head coach again.
I have worked for two really good head coaches. One micromanaged everything. He even gave every single coach their Indy drills for every Indy period the whole year. I don't know how he could handle that load.
I worked for another guy that got a chance to hire a great defensive coordinator. The guy would only come if he could be the "head coach of defense." He wanted to control everything defense related (personnel, coaching responsibilities, practice plan...) Our HC brought him on and our defense got really good and everyone got along great. I would be interested to see how things play out if we wouldn't have been good.
If I were taking over a program, I would have a hard time giving a title or major responsibilities to someone I hadn't worked with before. I have worked with guys that come highly recommended that didn't live up to expectations. It's going to come down to trust and that's something that usually takes time to build.
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Post by option1 on Jul 22, 2017 6:56:14 GMT -6
Sometimes not enough. Theres more to strategy than x's and o's.
Along the lines of being a coordinator but running the HC system, the coordinator has a title and is a puppet.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 22, 2017 7:56:00 GMT -6
Along the lines of being a coordinator but running the HC system, the coordinator has a title and is a puppet. I disagree. While surely this can potentially be the situation, the idea that it always must be the situation absolutely misses the idea of what a coordinator is supposed to do. A coordinator is not the "system designer" but system coordinator. They coordinate the defense. Some high profile examples : Kirby Smart was absolutely the defensive coordinator when he was at Bama. Prior to that Will Muschamp was absolutely the defensive coordinator. If an assistant coach organizes the efforts of other asst coaches, runs the meetings, plans weekly practices, coordinates the scripting (either by writing it themselves, or ensuring others write it within defined parameters and reviews it) etc. they are the coordinator. Doesn't matter if HC taught him the system. By your definition, If you learned defense as a 24 year old from a coach, and all you knew was Palms, Blue, Special, blah blah (I don't know all of the TCU terms, but you get the idea) and 5 years later you go to another school and coach, you are the original coach's puppet? |
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Post by aceback76 on Jul 22, 2017 8:31:07 GMT -6
Was having a conversation with my best friend and he asked me what kind of situation I would prefer as a prospective HC one day. Our current HC is the HC/OC/DC/STC/S&C, the whole bit, he doesn't delegate. If I'm being honest, I don't have the personality to do that. So, those of you who delegate: how much do you delegate and why are you in that situation? Do your coordinators run your system, do you mandate the system but give them free reign, do you just turn it over to them and say "have at it"? Thye #1 factor is whom you are delegating TO (his ability to do the job). |
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Post by mariner42 on Jul 22, 2017 8:38:22 GMT -6
Was having a conversation with my best friend and he asked me what kind of situation I would prefer as a prospective HC one day. Our current HC is the HC/OC/DC/STC/S&C, the whole bit, he doesn't delegate. If I'm being honest, I don't have the personality to do that. So, those of you who delegate: how much do you delegate and why are you in that situation? Do your coordinators run your system, do you mandate the system but give them free reign, do you just turn it over to them and say "have at it"? Thye #1 factor is whom you are delegating TO (his ability to do the job). Which is where I stand, but I feel like having a "well, it depends..." answer is kinda weak. I know good leadership is good delegating and communicating, but having an ideal end result is key. |
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Post by aceback76 on Jul 22, 2017 8:40:43 GMT -6
Thye #1 factor is whom you are delegating TO (his ability to do the job). Which is where I stand, but I feel like having a "well, it depends..." answer is kinda weak. I know good leadership is good delegating and communicating, but having an ideal end result is key. You don't give away the store to someone who can't run it. YOU (as HFC) will ultimately be held responsible for your success or failure! |
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Post by option1 on Jul 22, 2017 8:54:02 GMT -6
Along the lines of being a coordinator but running the HC system, the coordinator has a title and is a puppet. I disagree. While surely this can potentially be the situation, the idea that it always must be the situation absolutely misses the idea of what a coordinator is supposed to do. A coordinator is not the "system designer" but system coordinator. They coordinate the defense. Some high profile examples : Kirby Smart was absolutely the defensive coordinator when he was at Bama. Prior to that Will Muschamp was absolutely the defensive coordinator. If an assistant coach organizes the efforts of other asst coaches, runs the meetings, plans weekly practices, coordinates the scripting (either by writing it themselves, or ensuring others write it within defined parameters and reviews it) etc. they are the coordinator. Doesn't matter if HC taught him the system. By your definition, If you learned defense as a 24 year old from a coach, and all you knew was Palms, Blue, Special, blah blah (I don't know all of the TCU terms, but you get the idea) and 5 years later you go to another school and coach, you are the original coach's puppet? There is some validity here. However, by your last example we are all puppets. I guess the overriding principle for me then is the autonomy of being the architect, and creative freedom, not just the role/job of being a manager. To me, I'm not the architect or the coordinator if I can be overridden by someone else that "controls" the system. Been there, didn't like it, will never do it again for the sake of having a title. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 22, 2017 9:00:02 GMT -6
I disagree. While surely this can potentially be the situation, the idea that it always must be the situation absolutely misses the idea of what a coordinator is supposed to do. A coordinator is not the "system designer" but system coordinator. They coordinate the defense. Some high profile examples : Kirby Smart was absolutely the defensive coordinator when he was at Bama. Prior to that Will Muschamp was absolutely the defensive coordinator. If an assistant coach organizes the efforts of other asst coaches, runs the meetings, plans weekly practices, coordinates the scripting (either by writing it themselves, or ensuring others write it within defined parameters and reviews it) etc. they are the coordinator. Doesn't matter if HC taught him the system. By your definition, If you learned defense as a 24 year old from a coach, and all you knew was Palms, Blue, Special, blah blah (I don't know all of the TCU terms, but you get the idea) and 5 years later you go to another school and coach, you are the original coach's puppet? There is some validity here. However, by your last example we are all puppets. I guess the overriding principle for me then is the autonomy of being the architect, and creative freedom, not just the role/job of being a manager. To me, I'm not the architect or the coordinator if I can be overridden by someone else that "controls" the system. Been there, didn't like it, will never do it again for the sake of having a title. Coach..my last example was YOUR definition. Just written in a different way. It was an attempt to show you why I disagreed with your premise. I mean look at your last sentence? Every single football coach can be "overridden" by the HC. |
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Post by option1 on Jul 22, 2017 9:14:51 GMT -6
No, that was your interpretation. We're not on the same page here but that's cool. Im not even asked for a gameplan, little lone overridden. I do go over with the HC as a professional courtesy and because I think he should know. Like I said, I've experienced the doffetence between the 2 on widely contrasting levels.
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Post by blb on Jul 22, 2017 9:23:07 GMT -6
There are some HCs who will completely turn over one side of the ball to an assistant.
One of my mentors did not like coaching defense. He would coach a position, but let his DC run whatever he wanted to.
There are also some assistants who want to be "Coordinators" but do not have the knowledge, teaching, and-or organizational abilities to succeed in that role.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 22, 2017 9:23:09 GMT -6
No, that was your interpretation. We're not on the same page here but that's cool. Im not even asked for a gameplan, little lone overridden. I do go over with the HC as a professional courtesy and because I think he should know. Like I said, I've experienced the doffetence between the 2 on widely contrasting levels. Coach, with all respect, I am not sure there is another way to interpret "running the HC's system means the DC is a title and a puppet" I understand what you are saying though. You would prefer to work as a coordinator in a program where the HC is a program administrator and not involved day to day in football activities. Nothing wrong with that. |
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