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Post by wingt74 on Jul 31, 2006 14:32:49 GMT -6
At our last coaches meeting, after talking about the season, talking about some Xs and Os, etc...the topic of recruiting came up.
In Wisconsin, a coach was basically forced into resignation for many reasons (only he, the school, and the kids know for sure), one reason that is a rumor deals with recruiting.
We asked, "is it wrong"?
There are definately "wrong" ways to do it...including offering money, and A's in Biology. But what about a coach having any one of these conversations with a player from a different school.
1. "Come play for me, I have a strong relationship with D-1 scouts and will do a better job than your current school in getting you a Scholarship"
2. "Come play for me, you're a good QB, and my offense throws the ball a lot, your current offense runs to much"
3. Come play for me, we only have 10 seniors, your team has over 30...you'll get a LOT more playing time here"
I'm still thinking this one through...thoughts here?
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Post by toprowguy on Jul 31, 2006 14:45:31 GMT -6
Only discuss with the kid what your school can offer him not what the other schools can't give him.
If you are doing that the I don't think there is a problem with it.
Don't show up at other schools JV or Freshmen games looking to scout kids for your program. This has been a problem at some schools around here.
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Post by phantom on Jul 31, 2006 14:53:33 GMT -6
If it's a public school it's illegal for a coach to initiate contact in our state and, i assume, most others. If a parent contacts us and can do it legally then that's a different story. I agree that negative recruiting should never be a part of it.
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Post by wingt74 on Jul 31, 2006 15:12:48 GMT -6
Don't show up at other schools JV or Freshmen games looking to scout kids for your program. This has been a problem at some schools around here. Why not coach? I'm not disagreeing...or agreeing with you, just wondering what your thoughts are. |
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Post by brophy on Jul 31, 2006 15:16:09 GMT -6
But what about a coach having any one of these conversations with a player from a different school. 1. "Come play for me, I have a strong relationship with D-1 scouts and will do a better job than your current school in getting you a Scholarship" 2. "Come play for me, you're a good QB, and my offense throws the ball a lot, your current offense runs to much" 3. Come play for me, we only have 10 seniors, your team has over 30...you'll get a LOT more playing time here" I'm still thinking this one through...thoughts here? all of these examples would've been VIOLATIONS for a public school coach in Iowa.......not saying it doesn't happen, but a coach cannot knowingly talk to other players to intice open enrollment to your school. Catholic schools are not under the same guidelines. |
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Post by phantom on Jul 31, 2006 15:23:03 GMT -6
Don't show up at other schools JV or Freshmen games looking to scout kids for your program. This has been a problem at some schools around here. Why not coach? I'm not disagreeing...or agreeing with you, just wondering what your thoughts are. Well, for one thing, if you try it at our place we'll throw your butt out. |
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Post by bulldog on Jul 31, 2006 17:28:19 GMT -6
My advice - Only 'recruit' kids at other schools in the same manner that you would want the kids at your school recruited by another coach. Personally, I would not contact a kid at another school unless he came to me first. Remember what we are here for and you'd have to ask yourself, 'is it truly in the kid's best interest to transfer? And why?' If your rationale is that you could get him a scholarship more easily. . . I would wonder why you couldn't do that even if you didn't coach him. Couldn't you make the same offer? If he took you up on your offer to help place him, couldn't you call recruiters on his behalf? Couldn't you help him put film together? Or is it that you want the benefit of his playing on your team and THAT is your true motivation?' I just think that recruiting kids becomes about us coaches - our egos - our won-loss records. It's about what we BUILD. But, it isn't really is it? It's about the kids. And helping them learn life lessons thru the greatest game on earth. And becoming men. And leading others, showing empathy, and rejecting false masculinity. The reward from coaching . . . . . coachhuey.proboards42.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1154153670 |
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Post by coachmyers on Jul 31, 2006 19:37:08 GMT -6
what about connections with junior league programs and their coaches? to what extent is that ethical?
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Post by phantom on Jul 31, 2006 19:44:38 GMT -6
That depends on whether the junior league is a feeder team.
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Post by wingt74 on Jul 31, 2006 21:06:20 GMT -6
Well, for one thing, if you try it at our place we'll throw your butt out. Why? Why would you throw me out? (and hell I mean me figurelatively!) I mean, I'm in the same boat...for the record. I would be mad if another coach came sniffing around my kids, and would never actively recruit It's easy to take the high road, but your lettering Jr HB just quit the team to play soccer. The AD / alumni has already been coming down hard on you because you're not winning, you're worried about losing your job...and you have a phone # of a kid who is in a crappy program, at a run down school, and could be doing much better with your team / school. I dunno. There are some fine lines...who called who? Is it about W's and L's and your ego, or is it about actually helping the kid and/or saving your job? I guess common sense, ethics, and morals kick in here in the end. Either way, a coach in Wisconsin lost his job. My gut would be he crossed the line...but his old RB just got drafted in the NFL, and he's had many D1 prospects through his system. Could this all have happened if they didn't go to his school? Who knows... |
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Post by coachmyers on Jul 31, 2006 21:09:06 GMT -6
say the league doesnt have feeder teams, its an independant league for youth
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Post by phantom on Jul 31, 2006 21:09:23 GMT -6
There's no fine line. It's not ethical and it's not legal.
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Post by spreadattack on Aug 1, 2006 7:07:56 GMT -6
Recruiting is bad news. My best advice is to be more than well on the safe side of the "fine line" but if you want to encourage kids to come to your program, obviously win, but make yourself public in their communities, giving talks, going to events, having a good image and building a positive reputation. As an old coach once told me, McDonald's never had to call anyone up to get them to eat one of their hamburgers.
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Post by fbdoc on Aug 1, 2006 11:44:49 GMT -6
Phantom and spreadattack said it best. Recruting at the hgih school level is not legal (Public schools) and not ethical (public and private). Depsite any arguements that a school might be "better" for a kid (wingt74) it's simply not right for to entice a kid or his parents to make a move for football reasons.
We are a private school and in the past, we've been raided by other private schools in the area. It's also no secret that several of these schools offer some shady deals such as tuition waivers and parent "jobs" as a way around the expense of a private school education. I'm not talking about legitimate state and federal financial aide that is available for provate k-12 education but cases of flat out scholarshipping!
Not trying to sound holier than though, but our school has chosen to let our school, our faith, and our programs do the "recruiting" for us - if a parent contacts us first, we will be happy to share the positive aspects that are available through a private Christian school such as ours. If they can afford these positives then we are happy to enroll their kid. If not, we wish them well but at least stay away from that slippery slope of "Buying a Championship" rather than developing one of our own. I wish Florida had the same penalties as Wisconsin. Right now there is no penalty on the coach, but the school and the kid (IF recruiting is proved) are both ruled ineligible.
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zp5462
Freshmen Member
Posts: 23
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Post by zp5462 on Aug 1, 2006 11:59:51 GMT -6
fbdoc...the fine line is certainly more blurred for private schools. They can offer finacial aide or scholarship money to any kid. While I agree it is unethical, on the high school level, to give a kid money just because he is an athlete, a school can easily do it and disguise it as aide. Also, I don't know how things work in Florida, but here in Missouri private schools go out into the community and sell themselves. They go to private and public elementary schools and make presentations trying to get applicants. That's how I found out about the private high school I attended, a representative came to my school and basically sold the school to me and my classmates, in an attempt to get us to apply.
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Post by khalfie on Aug 1, 2006 12:12:50 GMT -6
1. Private schools have to recruit... otherwise they wouldn't exist...
2. Public schools don't have to recruit...
If there are rules in your area against recruiting... then plain and simple... its wrong. If there isn't, then talking up your program is the thing to do.
However, at the larger schools, the only place most coaches need to recruit are their own hallways... the smaller schools, its usually the same being that small towns very seldom have private schools to compete with.
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Post by spreadattack on Aug 1, 2006 16:40:53 GMT -6
However, at the larger schools, the only place most coaches need to recruit are their own hallways... the smaller schools, its usually the same being that small towns very seldom have private schools to compete with. Good call. There's no reason the basketball players, wrestlers, baseball players, etc shouldn't be on the football team. |
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Post by senatorblutarsky on Aug 1, 2006 20:58:58 GMT -6
the smaller schools, its usually the same being that small towns very seldom have private schools to compete with.
That is not really the case in Nebraska. There are several small towns within 100 miles of us (for ex. a town of 2200, town of 1200... even a town of 740) that have a public and private high school. The public school suffers athletically in almost all cases, yet financially they are doing well because their tax base comes from both public and private families.
It is kind of a double-edged sword for those who want to coach in those schools- the public schools in those towns are going to stay open because they are not struggling for $... but historically, those schools are almost annually at the bottom of their leagues in athletics.
With open enrollment here, recruiting is a sensitive issue. Most people cite the private schools... but public schools are not exempt from luring players away. From the cases I know, only one was done by a coach. Most of it comes from kids/parents in the other programs. (We have a lot of co-op legion baseball here in the small schools/towns. If school A and B play together in baseball... and school A wins in football and school B loses... school A may get a new player now and then).
We live in a culture where kids (and this comes from parents):
1. Are not patient
2. See that the "grass is always greener" elsewhere
3. Do not want to work to build a program- especially if they are not the beneficiary (ex. I went to a losing HS. my first 3 years we were 1-9, 0-10 and 2-8.... we went 5-5 my senior year, and I am proud that we were the class to get it going- they've played in 3 title games since. That is not a common attitude now).
4. Are selfish-"what will you do for me?" rather than "what can I do for the team/community?"
5. etc... this list could go on for a long time
The bottom line, this attitude is breeding ground for recruiting to occur.
wingt, I understand the theoretical basis of your argument- and if all we were about was winning and football scholarships... maybe. But there is a bigger picture as far as I am concerned. 95% of our athletes will go on in life, not sports. I've known of several standouts who played for perennial losers that received their opportunity anyway. For the "leftover 95%" patience, persistence, work, selflessness... those are the qualities that will do them more good than winning a few more games.
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Post by wildcat on Aug 1, 2006 21:42:33 GMT -6
I guess that I am having a hard time with the question...
In Illinois, recruiting students for the purpose of participating in athletics (at both public AND private schools) is illegal, period. You do it and get caught, you are looking at probably a one-year suspension from coaching and the forfeiture of any games or championships you won with an illegally recruited player. Additionally, the player who was illegally recruited can be declared ineligible.
So, I guess what that means to me is that I'm not gonna recruit kids. We have had kids from other schools come up to our coaches and express interest in playing for us. Every time that happens, we inform the kid that if he is interested in coming to our school, he needs to schedule an appointment with the school guidance counselor. If the kid (or parent in some cases) tries to talk football, we cut the conversion off. Not worth it!
Now, if you live in a state that allows coaches to recruit student-athletes, then why is there a problem?
So, with that being said, are you asking us if it is ethical to recruit a kid in violation of state rules? I saw no, it is not ethical to do that. Rules are rules. They may be stupid and others may not follow them, but that does not give a good reason to break the rules.
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Post by fbdoc on Aug 2, 2006 8:35:22 GMT -6
khalfie's comment about private schools having to "recruit" or they wouldn't exist is true - the school needs students and has to promote themselves to get people to enroll. Each school will advertise their strengths such as academics, performing arts, and facilities. But from a coaching ethics standpoint, to recruit or attempt to entice a student or family solely based on athletic opportunity (I'm not even talking about offering scholarships!) is simply wrong.
The state high school associations where I have coached have specifically prohibited this type of activity. There is nothing wrong if a parent or player becomes aware of your (private) school because you win a lot or your facilities are good, or your placement rate at colleges is high, or any other reason --- and then COMES TO YOU to find out about your school. This is no different than a basketball player in your own school coming to you and asking if they can join the football team because they want to be a part of your team. But calling kids or parents who attend other schools or having an assistant or parent serve as your spokesperson is not right.
Our school has open houses (for general K-12 enrollment purposes) that we advertise in the local papers and we generally get a good turnout. For the parents and kids who attend we speak about our great academics, performing arts, and yes - our athletic programs. The question is often asked, "Do you have Athletic Scholarships like __________?" We say, "no we don't, however here are the forms for need based federal and state financial aide." If they qualify for aide, it doesn't come from us. Our administration and our coaching staff has made the committment to develope our programs from the inside with our own talent - if someone from the outside wants to come to our school, that's fine. But they have to come to us, and they have to pay what everyone else does.
We also have 5 big public high schools in our community and I can tell you we have never gone after a kid who attends those schools, while our good kids, many of whom have been at our school since starting at our Church's Pre-K program, are routinely pressed by public school and youth coaches to come and play at their school.
I know some schools choose to "Buy" their winning teams - we've got one of them in our district. Any one can be the caretaker of talent that has been bought. It takes a true Coach to develop his school's own talent and create a team. For us, It just makes it that much sweeter when we beat one of those "paid for" schoalrship teams. Sorry this has gone on so long.
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