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Post by coachfloyd on Mar 2, 2017 9:01:53 GMT -6
I think thats your problem. Why isn't someone teaching weight training who is knowledgeable? Does he coach football? Its really a union issue. The gym teacher does not coach a sport. We have a teacher/coach on staff (PE certified) and we brought up the idea of a sports class to admin. We were told that the other part time PE teacher (who also doesn't coach anything) would get first dibs. I know no support from admin........ makes it difficult yeah thats the real problem.
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Post by fantom on Mar 2, 2017 9:17:07 GMT -6
We're a big school in a school district with four HS's but we're in the same boat. Because of greater academic demands and budget issues we've eliminated all elective PE classes. None of our schools have ever had an athletic PE class. Our students get a gym credit for marching band Other get PC'd out of gym The point is that an athletic PE class is not a requirement for success. Neither is having seven workouts a week. We go M-W-Th from 3:30-5. Athletes in other sports lift with their in-season teams, if that team lifts at all, and are encouraged to lift with us if they're not practicing that day. It doesn't seem to have hurt us. Our schools have combined for 27 state football championships in the highest or second highest classifications. There have also been numerous championships in other sports. It can be done.
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Post by CS on Mar 2, 2017 9:25:24 GMT -6
My first thought was are those 25 kids that quit ALL turds or are some of them good kids that think football is fun and you sucked that right out of it? We didn't do that much when I played college ball and we were pretty dang good. I would like to know how much better you are truly making these kids? The 50 to 25 was a HUGE exaggeration just for a philosophical question. More like 4 or 6 kids that want to smoke weed after school. We have had more than one president who liked to partake in the gonj. Are you trying to run off the kids who drink on the weekends? If they are truly turds then fine but 4-6 kids isn't a big drop off in numbers. That seems pretty average to me.
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Post by joelee on Mar 2, 2017 9:57:16 GMT -6
I think you are doing too much. I think we are doing too much and we do half what you are doing. We have won a LOT of games the last 6 years. We go 4 days a week in the afternoon for usually 2 hours in the off season. Its a grind on me and sometimes I hate being there. We are not allowed to have an in school weight class and never will be. We lose some kids. I just had my starting RT quit before his senior year, saying he just doesn't enjoy it anymore. That being said we have 113 on the roster right now. Our workouts can sometimes be grueling. And no it doesn't have anything to do with having 7 d-1 kids. We had 1 this year. He didn't lift weights very often. All of our best athletes rarely show up to off season stuff because they either play basketball, baseball, track or all of the above. Our off season is designed to make reliable, mentally tough, football players out of the linemen and kids not good enough to play any other sport; by the time they are juniors or seniors..
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Post by coachcb on Mar 2, 2017 9:59:04 GMT -6
Take a look at this from a studious 15-18 year old's point of view during a day in the off-season (someone that's only playing football):
1. They get up early at around 5am, on a Monday morning, to go through an hour of footwork and agility drills. 2. They try to get a good breakfast in before heading to class. Maybe this happens, maybe it doesn't. 3. They go to school for eight hours, (again, we hope they have a decent lunch) trying to keep track of their 5-6 classes and all of their school work. 4. They get out of school and then hit the weight room for an hour-hour and a half. 5. They get home at around 5pm, eat decent dinner (hopefully..) and now have school work to focus on. 6. They might have a an hour or two of downtime before they go to bed at around 9-10pm. 7. Rinse, repeat..
We expect the kids to do this all school year and still be interested in football? Take a kid that's involved in another sport, pull the weight-training out because they have practice, add games on the weekend and their lives suck worse.. And, we're not even talking about all of the other stressors that go on in their lives..
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Post by StraightFlexin on Mar 2, 2017 10:06:40 GMT -6
Our students get a gym credit for marching band Other get PC'd out of gym The point is that an athletic PE class is not a requirement for success. Neither is having seven workouts a week. We go M-W-Th from 3:30-5. Athletes in other sports lift with their in-season teams, if that team lifts at all, and are encouraged to lift with us if they're not practicing that day. It doesn't seem to have hurt us. Our schools have combined for 27 state football championships in the highest or second highest classifications. There have also been numerous championships in other sports. It can be done. We are the only sports team in the high school that lifts. Basketball Coach "Lifting messes with your shot" Baseball Coach "lifting hurts your throwing mechanics" Track Coach "You get faster by running" Its 2017 and I really hear this. Is it a coincidence that football has won more games than all of our boys sports combine?
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Post by fantom on Mar 2, 2017 10:13:33 GMT -6
The point is that an athletic PE class is not a requirement for success. Neither is having seven workouts a week. We go M-W-Th from 3:30-5. Athletes in other sports lift with their in-season teams, if that team lifts at all, and are encouraged to lift with us if they're not practicing that day. It doesn't seem to have hurt us. Our schools have combined for 27 state football championships in the highest or second highest classifications. There have also been numerous championships in other sports. It can be done. We are the only sports team in the high school that lifts. Basketball Coach "Lifting messes with your shot" Baseball Coach "lifting hurts your throwing mechanics" Track Coach "You get faster by running" Its 2017 and I really hear this. Is it a coincidence that football has won more games than all of our boys sports combine? Believe me, our winter and spring sports teams do NOT kill it in the weight room.
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Post by StraightFlexin on Mar 2, 2017 10:23:58 GMT -6
I realize we do a ton. I also can not rely on any additional support from other sports or from PE courses throughout the school day. We have broken our sessions up into AM & PM sessions because of limited gym time (nonexistent). Not sure what move to make. I think a lot of things get better with effort. I also realize at times you need to work smarter, not harder. Just can't wrap my heads around the idea of being better by doing less, when you are already running the race with a 3 legged horse.
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Post by blb on Mar 2, 2017 10:35:57 GMT -6
I realize we do a ton. I also can not rely on any additional support from other sports or from PE courses throughout the school day. We have broken our sessions up into AM & PM sessions because of limited gym time (nonexistent). Not sure what move to make. I think a lot of things get better with effort. I also realize at times you need to work smarter, not harder. Just can't wrap my heads around the idea of being better by doing less, when you are already running the race with a 3 legged horse.
But if the TEAM is not getting better - only the 25 kids who train regularly in Off-Season - because you're losing players due to the demands you're making, maybe doing less IS the answer.
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Post by carookie on Mar 2, 2017 10:36:55 GMT -6
I realize we do a ton. I also can not rely on any additional support from other sports or from PE courses throughout the school day. We have broken our sessions up into AM & PM sessions because of limited gym time (nonexistent). Not sure what move to make. I think a lot of things get better with effort. I also realize at times you need to work smarter, not harder. Just can't wrap my heads around the idea of being better by doing less, when you are already running the race with a 3 legged horse. This assumes that you hit the magical balance of too little and too much work the first time. Imagine if your initial plan had them getting there at 5AM 5 days a week for your morning session, and had them staying from 3PM to 8PM 5 days a week for your afternoon sessions. In that situation, if someone told you to, "do less" you still could argue then- "Just can't wrap my heads around the idea of being better by doing less, when you are already running the race with a 3 legged horse." Its akin to thinking that if a set of 8 on the squat rack is good, then a set of 80 or 800 must be amazing. Your workload right now, is like doing sets of 80. There are points of diminishing returns, and there are points of negative returns. I think many coaches feel that the extra time you are asking of these kids right now will not be a benefit to their on the field success when you consider all the factors (negative returns). Unfortunately that doesnt play well in the minds of many, who feel we must keep up with the Joneses and that we must put in more hours of work than others to be better (or at least show we aren't lazy).
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Post by newt21 on Mar 2, 2017 10:42:33 GMT -6
I realize we do a ton. I also can not rely on any additional support from other sports or from PE courses throughout the school day. We have broken our sessions up into AM & PM sessions because of limited gym time (nonexistent). Not sure what move to make. I think a lot of things get better with effort. I also realize at times you need to work smarter, not harder. Just can't wrap my heads around the idea of being better by doing less, when you are already running the race with a 3 legged horse. When it comes to working out, often times more is less. Just being in the weight room lifting and going through the motions doesn't make a bigger, faster, stronger, tougher, etc. player. What does is getting kids in there that will get after it for the days/times they are there. If taking one or two workouts away will create this, then it is a big time solution.
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Post by StraightFlexin on Mar 2, 2017 10:42:39 GMT -6
If I stop all morning sessions, what should then do for the students that want to do more? Just say that isn't an option?
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Post by newt21 on Mar 2, 2017 10:47:06 GMT -6
If I stop all morning sessions, what should then do for the students that want to do more? Just say that isn't an option? I ran the weight room at a high school a few years ago, here is a solution. Open morning sessions two days a week (MW) and those sessions are available if you can't make it later. Open the weight room after school for 3 days (MWR) for those that either can't make the morning sessions, or just don't want to get up early. If you come to a morning workout, great but you don't come to the afternoon workout. This way you can get kids in the weight room multiple days with multiple times offered and it's not asking a kid to sell his soul to the program. Adjust days/times as you may, but I personally had success with getting kids out with this type of schedule.
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Post by bluboy on Mar 2, 2017 10:52:06 GMT -6
I guarantee you that if one dose of a laxative makes me feel better, eight doses won't make me feel great. I know that we all want our kids to do speed, power, and agility stuff during the football off-season. We sometimes forget that all the off-season stuff doesn't always translate to winning games; not to mention, that too much is not good. There are no benches or squat racks on the 50-yardline on game night. Mr. Myogi said, "Must have balance in life." I think the same applies to football.
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Post by carookie on Mar 2, 2017 10:53:30 GMT -6
If I stop all morning sessions, what should then do for the students that want to do more? Just say that isn't an option? In short, Yes. At least when it comes to mandating physical workouts (ie running or weight training). If you have kids that need a mentor/coach then obviously be there for them and let them watch film or chalk talk (or talk about life). If you have a bunch of football junkies then be there and let them chalk up all your stuff and talk about adjustments. But I feel that is different than mandating a massive amount of hours, or overloading physical workouts to the detriment of your athletes.
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Post by StraightFlexin on Mar 2, 2017 11:00:06 GMT -6
If I stop all morning sessions, what should then do for the students that want to do more? Just say that isn't an option? In short, Yes. At least when it comes to mandating physical workouts (ie running or weight training). If you have kids that need a mentor/coach then obviously be there for them and let them watch film or chalk talk (or talk about life). If you have a bunch of football junkies then be there and let them chalk up all your stuff and talk about adjustments. But I feel that is different than mandating a massive amount of hours, or overloading physical workouts to the detriment of your athletes. Nothing is mandated. Earlier I stressed about how everything is optional. It provides an opportunity for players to compete with each other and better themselves. We do not cut. I wish we had that issue, but we do not. Our morning session today consisted of 20 minutes of various line drills and 10 minutes of dodgeball. Jesus its not like I am having them push a wheel they are chained to like the entry seen of Conan
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Post by blb on Mar 2, 2017 11:00:57 GMT -6
Mr. Myogi said, "Must have balance in life." I think the same applies to football.
Too much of a good thing, even Football, is still too much.
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Post by joelee on Mar 2, 2017 11:05:11 GMT -6
In short, Yes. At least when it comes to mandating physical workouts (ie running or weight training). If you have kids that need a mentor/coach then obviously be there for them and let them watch film or chalk talk (or talk about life). If you have a bunch of football junkies then be there and let them chalk up all your stuff and talk about adjustments. But I feel that is different than mandating a massive amount of hours, or overloading physical workouts to the detriment of your athletes. Nothing is mandated. Earlier I stressed about how everything is optional. It provides an opportunity for players to compete with each other and better themselves. We do not cut. I wish we had that issue, but we do not. Our morning session today consisted of 20 minutes of various line drills and 10 minutes of dodgeball. Jesus its not like I am having them push a wheel they are chained to like the entry seen of Conan Again, I ask. Why are we having this thread? Apparently you only lost 4-6 pothead losers. You have an excuse for every piece of advice we have given. What do you want out of this thread?
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Post by carookie on Mar 2, 2017 11:07:22 GMT -6
In short, Yes. At least when it comes to mandating physical workouts (ie running or weight training). If you have kids that need a mentor/coach then obviously be there for them and let them watch film or chalk talk (or talk about life). If you have a bunch of football junkies then be there and let them chalk up all your stuff and talk about adjustments. But I feel that is different than mandating a massive amount of hours, or overloading physical workouts to the detriment of your athletes. Nothing is mandated. Earlier I stressed about how everything is optional. It provides an opportunity for players to compete with each other and better themselves. We do not cut. I wish we had that issue, but we do not. Our morning session today consisted of 20 minutes of various line drills and 10 minutes of dodgeball. Jesus its not like I am having them push a wheel they are chained to like the entry seen of Conan Gotcha, But even then I'd still say "no" to limit the physical workout. I used to have a player, real good athlete, who after our team workouts would head to the local gym, he wanted to keep lifting more. It was a struggle with him, but wanted more. We had to teach him how the body develops, and how there is such thing as too much. If the kids want to be there, then be there for them. But be wary of too much working out.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2017 11:11:09 GMT -6
The point is that an athletic PE class is not a requirement for success. Neither is having seven workouts a week. We go M-W-Th from 3:30-5. Athletes in other sports lift with their in-season teams, if that team lifts at all, and are encouraged to lift with us if they're not practicing that day. It doesn't seem to have hurt us. Our schools have combined for 27 state football championships in the highest or second highest classifications. There have also been numerous championships in other sports. It can be done. We are the only sports team in the high school that lifts. Basketball Coach "Lifting messes with your shot" Baseball Coach "lifting hurts your throwing mechanics" Track Coach "You get faster by running" Its 2017 and I really hear this. Is it a coincidence that football has won more games than all of our boys sports combine? Three years ago our baseball & basketball teams wouldn't lift for the exact same reasons you state above. When our HC tried to get the other sport HC's to lift they refused, despite the evidence he showed them otherwise. Both programs were awful. Two years ago we had some football players that were seniors go out for the baseball team and ended up being stars. Fortunately the baseball coach saw the light and put his players on a very good lifting program. Last year the baseball program was really good and the coach admits it's due to the lifting. The basketball coach is still a stooge, every time we play a physical team our kids turtle up and suck their thumbs, we can't even make playoffs.
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Post by fantom on Mar 2, 2017 13:38:28 GMT -6
In short, Yes. At least when it comes to mandating physical workouts (ie running or weight training). If you have kids that need a mentor/coach then obviously be there for them and let them watch film or chalk talk (or talk about life). If you have a bunch of football junkies then be there and let them chalk up all your stuff and talk about adjustments. But I feel that is different than mandating a massive amount of hours, or overloading physical workouts to the detriment of your athletes. Nothing is mandated. Earlier I stressed about how everything is optional. It provides an opportunity for players to compete with each other and better themselves. We do not cut. I wish we had that issue, but we do not. Our morning session today consisted of 20 minutes of various line drills and 10 minutes of dodgeball. Jesus its not like I am having them push a wheel they are chained to like the entry seen of Conan But in the OP you said this: >>> I express to all players that everything is optional, but highly encouraged and the aim of everything is to give them the best opportunity to play and be successful. <<< Now, do you really think that it would hurt the program if you didn't make the kids (and Mom or Dad) get out of bed at 5 AM to do line drills and play dodgeball on March 2nd?
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Post by ramcoachdc on Mar 2, 2017 13:52:12 GMT -6
contemplating a tiered system, for this reason...we want / need all the players we can get.
Tier 1 - football is #1, in and off season program for them to maximize their potential Tier 2 - multi sport athletes, program for kids who cannot focus on 1 because they play 3 Tier 3 - want to be part of a program, but maybe not sports centric Tier 4 - kids that like to hold bags, could care less if they ever see a varsity minute
players enroll at the tier level that best fits them. can opt up if they desire at any point.
obviously the more tier 1's and 2's you have the more success the program will have. but there are also a lot of kids who benefit from just be part of something.
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barlow
Sophomore Member
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Post by barlow on Mar 2, 2017 14:07:06 GMT -6
If I stop all morning sessions, what should then do for the students that want to do more? Just say that isn't an option? I ran the weight room at a high school a few years ago, here is a solution. Open morning sessions two days a week (MW) and those sessions are available if you can't make it later. Open the weight room after school for 3 days (MWR) for those that either can't make the morning sessions, or just don't want to get up early. If you come to a morning workout, great but you don't come to the afternoon workout. This way you can get kids in the weight room multiple days with multiple times offered and it's not asking a kid to sell his soul to the program. Adjust days/times as you may, but I personally had success with getting kids out with this type of schedule. This is currently how I run my schedule, with Friday included in the mornings as well. The morning is primarily for the athletes participating in other sports and the afternoon for off season guys, which is now the Track Team. I give no hard feelings to the kids who don't show up to the morning workouts but I expect to see them in the afternoon.
Looking at what you said if the kids/staff/parents are giving positive reviews correlated to MORNING SESSION then make THAT the standard lift time and afternoon the backup session a couple days. If you could put your program to a 3 day split I feel like you will keep more of the guys that don't love the weight room so much. Even if the 4th day is the running day if you must.
From our experience, we let a handful of kids go because of not immediately following our standards. Practice became hard to field scout teams and younger kids had to play before they were ready. If you can build up the kids not maximally committed that depth has to help somewhere.
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Post by coachd5085 on Mar 2, 2017 14:22:25 GMT -6
contemplating a tiered system, for this reason...we want / need all the players we can get. Tier 1 - football is #1, in and off season program for them to maximize their potential Tier 2 - multi sport athletes, program for kids who cannot focus on 1 because they play 3 Tier 3 - want to be part of a program, but maybe not sports centric Tier 4 - kids that like to hold bags, could care less if they ever see a varsity minute players enroll at the tier level that best fits them. can opt up if they desire at any point. obviously the more tier 1's and 2's you have the more success the program will have. but there are also a lot of kids who benefit from just be part of something. Enroll? I agree that those Tiers represent the various levels of interest and involvement HS athletes have regarding sports, but I don't really see any advantage to officially labeling (or having the kids label themselves) in one of those tiers. It is just important to recognize the differences between kids and plan accordingly.
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Post by bluboy on Mar 2, 2017 15:18:40 GMT -6
We have two "tiers", and we put the kids in the tier where we we think they belong. The TIER 1 (M-W-F group) is the big dogs. These are the guys whom we expect to start or play Friday nights. We also place in Tier 1 those players whom we view as possible scout team players, special team players, and anyone else whom we view as able to practice with the varsity. Tier 2 is mostly young guys (rising sophs/some juniors) who have not shown that they can practice with the varsity; this group lifts T and Th. A player can be "re-assigned" up or down. We have had some older guys get moved down(not very often) because they miss too many workouts for unexcused reasons. We have also moved guys up because they've shown us that they are not afraid to work(this is how young guys get noticed in off-season). We constantly tell our guys that if they are not happy where they are, do something about it. Show us that we were wrong.
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Post by ahall005 on Mar 2, 2017 20:37:19 GMT -6
I don't see how you guys function without weight training classes. This is our first year having a weight training class and for the most part it has been a disaster
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Post by blb on Mar 3, 2017 6:19:47 GMT -6
I don't see how you guys function without weight training classes. This is our first year having a weight training class and for the most part it has been a disaster
How so?
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Post by StraightFlexin on Mar 3, 2017 6:30:52 GMT -6
Nothing is mandated. Earlier I stressed about how everything is optional. It provides an opportunity for players to compete with each other and better themselves. We do not cut. I wish we had that issue, but we do not. Our morning session today consisted of 20 minutes of various line drills and 10 minutes of dodgeball. Jesus its not like I am having them push a wheel they are chained to like the entry seen of Conan But in the OP you said this: >>> I express to all players that everything is optional, but highly encouraged and the aim of everything is to give them the best opportunity to play and be successful. <<< Now, do you really think that it would hurt the program if you didn't make the kids (and Mom or Dad) get out of bed at 5 AM to do line drills and play dodgeball on March 2nd? We are a 100% walking district. Mommy and daddy do not need to wake up at 5:00 because it takes the kids 5 minutes to walk. We start at 6:30, if it takes you 90 minutes to get ready, wear less makeup
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Post by ahall005 on Mar 3, 2017 7:14:53 GMT -6
This is our first year having a weight training class and for the most part it has been a disaster
How so?
well it is open to all athletes so we end up with a lot of kids in there that took it because they thought it would be an easy A and are outraged by the fact that they 1. have to lift. and 2. actually have to follow a program. kids got in the class who were not supposed to be able to take the class. Monday one kid got through two lifts in an hour.
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Post by bigmoot on Mar 3, 2017 7:45:22 GMT -6
well it is open to all athletes so we end up with a lot of kids in there that took it because they thought it would be an easy A and are outraged by the fact that they 1. have to lift. and 2. actually have to follow a program. kids got in the class who were not supposed to be able to take the class. Monday one kid got through two lifts in an hour. Make it so tough they are lining up at the registrar's door to drop the class. School has to know that if you are in weights...you work. Got to have administration support in scheduling weight classes. If not you end up what the op has. It can be a cluster.
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