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Post by dblwngr on Jun 11, 2007 21:02:20 GMT -6
You just don't see the run n shoot like these teams ran it anymore. Man, you talk about putting up some numbers!
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Post by spreadattack on Jun 12, 2007 6:51:23 GMT -6
Oilers, baby
Givens' electric slide
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Post by dubber on Jun 12, 2007 7:27:48 GMT -6
If you have the NFL network, catch their game vs. Buffalo in 93'.............they lose, but oh boy are they fun to watch |
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Post by hawkfan on Jun 12, 2007 7:50:07 GMT -6
I went with the Oilers. I think with Moon and Cody Carlson (?) those receivers were the most productive.
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Post by spreadattack on Jun 12, 2007 7:53:29 GMT -6
If you have the NFL network, catch their game vs. Buffalo in 93'.............they lose, but oh boy are they fun to watch that was just a wild game. 28 points in a half in the cold against one of the best defenses in the league? don't ask me how they lost (or why), but that is awesome to watch. "[In the first half] Houston averaged 7.3 yards per offensive play behind quarterback Warren Moon's 19 of 22 passing for 218 yards and four touchdowns - a 147.5 passer rating. At halftime, the Bills trailed the Oilers 28-3." it ain't bad watching the bills k-gun either. |
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Post by brophy on Jun 12, 2007 7:56:31 GMT -6
Moore, Morton, & Perriman.........just because thats what I knew...Moore & Morton were terrors because of their size, coupled with Barry Sanders.
Unfortunately, they were the most inconsistent team (ever) and that had nothing to do with the head coaches or schemes, because it is a trend that continues today.
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Post by dubber on Jun 12, 2007 9:11:37 GMT -6
Unfortunately, they were the most inconsistent team (ever) and that had nothing to do with the head coaches or schemes, because it is a trend that continues today. [sigh] Shaun is just the next disappointment for a Lions fan like myself........someone just get me a copy of Millen's schedule --where he'll be, and when---and I got some "associates" who'll take care of the rest................................ .................I need to watch some Barry Sanders highlight reels  |
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Post by brophy on Jun 12, 2007 9:17:12 GMT -6
one thing about those R&S teams, check out their yds/rush averages..........
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Post by spreadattack on Jun 12, 2007 10:07:31 GMT -6
one thing about those R&S teams, check out their yds/rush averages.......... Team Offense |---------- PASSING -----------|-------------|----- RUSHING -----|-TOTAL ----------- CMP-ATT---YD---YPA---TD-INT--ATT--YD---YPA---TD----YD ------------357-614--4145-6.75--23-25--409--1792--4.38--11--5937 NFL rank>1-----1-----3-----13 ---7---27--24-----12------4----12---3 Gotta love that, 24th in rushing attempts but 12th in rushing yards and FOURTH in yards per rush. Third best offense in the league. (By the way, over a five year stretch the Oilers had the 8th, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 3rd best offenses by yards and 7, 2, 4, 6, and 4 by points.). What's that I hear? But a little run/pass "balance" smartfootball.blogspot.com/2006/07/runpass-balance-and-little-game-theory.html |
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Post by dubber on Jun 12, 2007 11:38:04 GMT -6
IMO, this element is still alive in the shotgun spread........not running as much, but usually for big yards.
The two big questions, and the ultimate concerns of a Run and Shoot coach:
How do I run the ball when they know I'm going to run it? (4-minute situation, GL)
How do I help my defense out? (big plays come with the offense, so the D is on the field a ton.......probably why Run and Shoot died out in the NFL)
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Post by brophy on Jun 12, 2007 11:58:07 GMT -6
IMO, this element is still alive in the shotgun spread........not running as much, but usually for big yards. The two big questions, and the ultimate concerns of a Run and Shoot coach: How do I run the ball when they know I'm going to run it? (4-minute situation, GL) How do I help my defense out? (big plays come with the offense, so the D is on the field a ton.......probably why Run and Shoot died out in the NFL) use your screen game - if the defense chooses not to respect your receivers you have to make them pay (whether you are up 35-0 or not) it is what it is.......(4 wide).....trying to become a power-I team during 4-min situations is a deviation in philosophy. |
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Post by dubber on Jun 12, 2007 12:08:07 GMT -6
IMO, this element is still alive in the shotgun spread........not running as much, but usually for big yards. The two big questions, and the ultimate concerns of a Run and Shoot coach: How do I run the ball when they know I'm going to run it? (4-minute situation, GL) How do I help my defense out? (big plays come with the offense, so the D is on the field a ton.......probably why Run and Shoot died out in the NFL) use your screen game - if the defense chooses not to respect your receivers you have to make them pay (whether you are up 35-0 or not) it is what it is.......(4 wide).....trying to become a power-I team during 4-min situations is a deviation in philosophy. agree and agree. Just saying these are the issues R-n-S teams face, and they've all come up with different solutions........really though, the biggest problem is the wearing out of your defense, and to rectify that problem, you'd really have to change philosophy |
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Post by brophy on Jun 12, 2007 12:13:13 GMT -6
what is wrong with changing the tempo of your offense?
Take your time....don't line up until you have 10 sec left on the play-clock.
As long as you complete your pass its the same as a run.
As long as you move the chains, your defense stays off the field
3 incomplete passes is not much different than 3 runs stuffed for minimal gains concerning YOUR defense.....if you don't convert, you didn't do your job as a 4 min offense.
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Post by dubber on Jun 12, 2007 12:24:41 GMT -6
what is wrong with changing the tempo of your offense? As long as you complete your pass its the same as a run. As long as you move the chains, your defense stays off the field 3 incomplete passes is not much different than 3 runs stuffed for minimal gains concerning YOUR defense.....if you don't convert, you didn't do your job as a 4 min offense. My comments had nothing to do with the tempo, or speed at which the plays are called. Most run and shoot teams, even if they tried, cannot put together 12 play drives........the offense is just set up for big plays. You can throw high %, short passes that act like long hand-offs, but those can turn into big plays. I throw a hitch to my split 7 times, he's probably going to shake the corner at least once. Also, this is not just a 4 minute question.....during the whole game this wear on the defense takes place. Run and shoot teams score so quickly, their defense gets very little rest. By the 4th quarter, the defense has played a ton of minutes. This is probably why Run and Shoot team play in high scoring games, and often set up big comebacks (unless they just keep frickin' scoring) ala 93' Buffalo Bills. Every offense has a flaw, and this just so happens to be the Run and Shoot's flaw (Air Raid---like Mike Leach throw it every down Air Raid-----has the same problem). |
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Post by khalfie on Jun 12, 2007 12:28:28 GMT -6
How can we have a discussion on Run and Shoot...
And not mention the...
HOUSTON GAMBLERS?
Need I remind you guys?
""Entered Jim Kelly and the "mouse-ket-teers", the Gamblers rolled up an amazing 618 points, a full 79 points ahead of the second best team Birmingham. Houston's 34.3 points per game average was a professional football record.
As the Gamblers field general, Kelly turned in a season unlike any other by a professional quarterback during any era. Kelly set pro football marks for TD passes with 44, most 300 plus yard games in a season with 9 and his 5,219 yards gained through the air
For starters the Gamblers boasted the USFL's top two receivers using this alignment in Richard Johnson and Ricky Sanders. Johnson a cast off from the Denver Gold, topped the league in receptions with 115, yardage receiving 1,455 yards and touchdown catches with 15. Rookie Ricky Sanders, a" territorial draft pick" out of Southwest Texas was only just a step behind with 101 receptions, 1,370 yards and 11 TD's.
Statistically, Houston ranked a very solid seventh in the USFL in rushing, averaging 132 yards a game on the ground. The surprise came from another rookie, Todd Fowler, the 332nd player taken in the USFL draft. Fowler a product of tiny Austin University, bruised his way to 1,003 yards in only 170 carries for an outstanding 5.9 yard average.
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Post by dubber on Jun 12, 2007 12:35:03 GMT -6
How can we have a discussion on Run and Shoot... And not mention the... HOUSTON GAMBLERS? Need I remind you guys? ""Entered Jim Kelly and the "mouse-ket-teers", the Gamblers rolled up an amazing 618 points, a full 79 points ahead of the second best team Birmingham. Houston's 34.3 points per game average was a professional football record. As the Gamblers field general, Kelly turned in a season unlike any other by a professional quarterback during any era. Kelly set pro football marks for TD passes with 44, most 300 plus yard games in a season with 9 and his 5,219 yards gained through the air For starters the Gamblers boasted the USFL's top two receivers using this alignment in Richard Johnson and Ricky Sanders. Johnson a cast off from the Denver Gold, topped the league in receptions with 115, yardage receiving 1,455 yards and touchdown catches with 15. Rookie Ricky Sanders, a" territorial draft pick" out of Southwest Texas was only just a step behind with 101 receptions, 1,370 yards and 11 TD's. Statistically, Houston ranked a very solid seventh in the USFL in rushing, averaging 132 yards a game on the ground. The surprise came from another rookie, Todd Fowler, the 332nd player taken in the USFL draft. Fowler a product of tiny Austin University, bruised his way to 1,003 yards in only 170 carries for an outstanding 5.9 yard average. In ()'s it says NFL, but yes, that is a great point......Gamblers are definitely in a discussion of great Run and Shoot teams |
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Post by dblwngr on Jun 12, 2007 17:50:28 GMT -6
I don't think I have ever seen one of those run n shoot teams throw a WR screen. Seen it a lot in college but not in the pro's.
Todays spread systems have them at all levels. The Rams really opened the door for that play
Wonder why it took so long for the WR screen to catch on in the pro's?
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tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 164
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Post by tedseay on Jun 13, 2007 4:10:17 GMT -6
Also, this is not just a 4 minute question.....during the whole game this wear on the defense takes place. Run and shoot teams score so quickly, their defense gets very little rest. By the 4th quarter, the defense has played a ton of minutes. This is probably why Run and Shoot team play in high scoring games, and often set up big comebacks (unless they just keep frickin' scoring) ala 93' Buffalo Bills. dubber: This is exactly why I designed the Fly Sweep and inside FB games into my Wild Bunch offense to complement the R&S and Bunch Attack passing elements -- it's great to be able to score quickly, but sometimes you just have to play grindhouse football... |
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Post by dubber on Jun 13, 2007 6:27:19 GMT -6
Also, this is not just a 4 minute question.....during the whole game this wear on the defense takes place. Run and shoot teams score so quickly, their defense gets very little rest. By the 4th quarter, the defense has played a ton of minutes. This is probably why Run and Shoot team play in high scoring games, and often set up big comebacks (unless they just keep frickin' scoring) ala 93' Buffalo Bills. dubber: This is exactly why I designed the Fly Sweep and inside FB games into my Wild Bunch offense to complement the R&S and Bunch Attack passing elements -- it's great to be able to score quickly, but sometimes you just have to play grindhouse football... Yes. that is your answer to the self-limitization needed for a Run and Shoot team to be truly successful. Red Faught's answer (at least to the GL and 4-minute questions): X-O-C-O-O-O-------------Y ----Q----------B A---R Wing-T and power stuff, and you can still run your 2 rec. routes frontside. Of course, he didn't give a crap about the defense, so he never "limited" the offense as a whole to help the D out except in the afore mentioned situations. Because of formational likeness, a lot of Run and Shoot teams use wing-T plays (jet and rocket) with inside compliments to the FB. Or, they run triple option. Ted, I believe you know both sides of that coin......  |
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Post by CatsCoach on Jun 13, 2007 6:31:56 GMT -6
I went with the Oilers. I think with Moon and Cody Carlson (?) those receivers were the most productive. Agreed.... |
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