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Post by runthei on Nov 13, 2016 21:58:41 GMT -6
We're scratching our heads as a coaching staff because none of us have had as many ACL injuries (all are requiring surgery) as we've had this year. We had new turf installed in our stadium where 3 of them happened. The other 3 happened on away games where the teams had relatively new turf.
Has anyone else had a problem with this? Does it have something to do with our cleats or is it the newer turf (I don't want to drop the brand name on here in the case it's not that)? Or, is it strength and conditioning related (the previous 2 years we had 1 ACL and last year we changed it up a little bit in the off-season)?
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Post by silkyice on Nov 14, 2016 7:20:53 GMT -6
We're scratching our heads as a coaching staff because none of us have had as many ACL injuries (all are requiring surgery) as we've had this year. We had new turf installed in our stadium where 3 of them happened. The other 3 happened on away games where the teams had relatively new turf. Has anyone else had a problem with this? Does it have something to do with our cleats or is it the newer turf (I don't want to drop the brand name on here in the case it's not that)? Or, is it strength and conditioning related (the previous 2 years we had 1 ACL and last year we changed it up a little bit in the off-season)? I don't have the answer as it could just be an anomaly, but 6 is an awful lot. Statistically, 6 has got to be a ton for an individual team, but it probably isn't that uncommon for one team across the nation to get 6. Maybe y'all were just that unfortunate team. New cleats, all occurred on new turf and on a new/tweaked weight program? Again, don't know if that is the case, but I would go back to old weight program and cleat brand just to be safe. Don't think you can just change turf or opponents turf easily. |
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Post by 33coach on Nov 14, 2016 9:24:43 GMT -6
Without seeing the overall program. Id say That many knee injuries has to point back to your S&C program.
Could be a stroke of bad luck. But I would evaluate your on-and-off field S&C
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Post by olcoach53 on Nov 14, 2016 9:26:15 GMT -6
We had 4 of them. One was a freak injury, one was a helmet directly to the knee and two I can put on poor squat form and lack of time in the weight room.
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Post by Chris Clement on Nov 14, 2016 10:25:07 GMT -6
The general rule for boys is that contact ACL injuries are just luck, non contact injuries are training related.
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Post by dytmook on Nov 14, 2016 13:10:56 GMT -6
I'd say dumb luck is mostly likely. I would look at some things to help a bit in the offseason for S&C.
We practiced on newer turf all year and I think it helped our legs a lot. Past few years we have practiced on some rough grass fields and I think it took something from our legs. I think we had 2 ACLs one year, but both were pretty freak accidents from kids who worked pretty hard in the weight room.
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Post by IronmanFootball on Nov 14, 2016 13:32:17 GMT -6
I had 1 this year from a kid notorious for MAXING OUT BROTHER and bad squat form. I tried to fix his form and he had to do my workouts focusing on reps and form but it was hard in a short amount of time.
I agree w/ the coaches above, non-contact is often either a genetic hole in the ACL or Bigger Faster Surgery rearing its ugly head.
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Post by fantom on Nov 14, 2016 13:37:27 GMT -6
r Bigger Faster Surgery rearing its ugly head. Want to explain that? |
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Post by IronmanFootball on Nov 14, 2016 15:54:07 GMT -6
r Bigger Faster Surgery rearing its ugly head. Want to explain that? Lifting in the BFS program takes a toll on the teenage body. Some people call Greg Shepard "The Butcher" because of how his program tears down the body. |
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Post by fantom on Nov 14, 2016 16:08:21 GMT -6
Lifting in the BFS program takes a toll on the teenage body. Some people call Greg Shepard "The Butcher" because of how his program tears down the body. Any evidence of this? I'm asking because we used BFS for many years and never experienced any undue injury problems. I don't care one way or the other but I do find that the S&C community to be amusing in their clannishness. |
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Post by dblwngr on Nov 14, 2016 17:27:31 GMT -6
I was having a conversation with a DR about this. He claims now days athletes dont put enough focus on the development of the hamstring muscle.
Said its especially bad with female athletes but also getting worse with males. To much quad strength and not enough hammy power.
Interesting concept
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Post by td4tc on Nov 14, 2016 18:05:03 GMT -6
Wow. Six is a lot and while cleats and fields can sometimes be a factor, for males it seems that bad luck is still number one. In females all kinds of factors come into play including genetics , training, etc. For instance, way more girls than guys tear both in their careers. One in 25 female Texas HS bball players tear their ACL. A big group of Sports type Orthos were asked at a recent meeting how many have had a girl on their respective school's bball team tear their ACL this year and almost every hand in the room went up. wow eh?
While it is true that the hamstrings stabilize the anterior play in the joint not sure it has ever been proven that ultra strong quads are a factor. However, Elite downhill skiers can have a "quads on" ACL tear mechanism when they are able to almost fall back on their a$$ and still recover and not fall if that makes any sense. Certainly if surgery not contemplated (old fart) the hams should take the focus in rehab two to one over the quads.
All these questions including prophylactic braces are being studied and are fascinating but good old bad luck is still a key factor even in the non contact injuries. In the contact injuries (helmut on knee) usually multiple ligament injuries with the MCL going first then ACL if the force continues.
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Post by runitupthemiddle on Nov 14, 2016 18:40:55 GMT -6
We're scratching our heads as a coaching staff because none of us have had as many ACL injuries (all are requiring surgery) as we've had this year. We had new turf installed in our stadium where 3 of them happened. The other 3 happened on away games where the teams had relatively new turf. Has anyone else had a problem with this? Does it have something to do with our cleats or is it the newer turf (I don't want to drop the brand name on here in the case it's not that)? Or, is it strength and conditioning related (the previous 2 years we had 1 ACL and last year we changed it up a little bit in the off-season)? I don't have the answer as it could just be an anomaly, but 6 is an awful lot. Statistically, 6 has got to be a ton for an individual team, but it probably isn't that uncommon for one team across the nation to get 6. Maybe y'all were just that unfortunate team. New cleats, all occurred on new turf and on a new/tweaked weight program? Again, don't know if that is the case, but I would go back to old weight program and cleat brand just to be safe. Don't think you can just change turf or opponents turf easily. About 8 years ago we had 3 Acl tears, one at a camp with the kid just working on drive blocking stepped in a slight hole The other just running down the field covering lanes on air working kickoff, no contact , foot slipped, tore it from the bone, not the actual ligament, The other I can't remember , we had lots of knee problems that year. Only common thing was every kid that got hurt either neglected his summer running, or was a multi sport kid and those sports never made them train . |
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Post by runthei on Nov 14, 2016 18:45:34 GMT -6
Thanks for the responses guys. I want to say it's a freak thing but it still makes you wonder with that many if there's a common denominator other than "freak accident".
My gut keeps telling me it's just one of those years...
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Post by runitupthemiddle on Nov 14, 2016 18:58:22 GMT -6
Lifting in the BFS program takes a toll on the teenage body. Some people call Greg Shepard "The Butcher" because of how his program tears down the body. Any evidence of this? I'm asking because we used BFS for many years and never experienced any undue injury problems. I don't care one way or the other but I do find that the S&C community to be amusing in their clannishness. Man, I'm not so sure on this, we were the bfs school of the year in 2012, And in fact went above and beyond what it did. We went 6 days a week and never had any knee injury. Since all of us left after the spring 13, they have had tons of knee injuries. Changed the lifting program. Where I was at the last 3 years we changed to tripahsic training 2015-16. Super tremendous gains! Like one injury, ankle sprain . Went 12-1, and then state runner-up in powerlifting. |
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Post by fantom on Nov 14, 2016 20:02:47 GMT -6
Thanks for the responses guys. I want to say it's a freak thing but it still makes you wonder with that many if there's a common denominator other than "freak accident". My gut keeps telling me it's just one of those years... I think that you're probably right but that it makes sense to keep looking. |
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Post by ander02 on Nov 14, 2016 20:11:03 GMT -6
We had 5 or 6 a couple of seasons ago on a team of about 65 kids, 9-12. One happened at a summer college recruiting camp, one the first day of contact in August practice, and the rest in games. The one common factor in all of them was that they were contact injuries, none of them were when the kid was running and tried to change direction and just fell to the ground. Didn't have a single one in at least the 4 years before that or the year after. Caused us to ask a lot of questions and I did a lot of research on ACL injuries and training. Long story short(er), all of the college people we talked to said it was a freak year and law of averages based on the fact that they were all contact injuries so not necessarily training related but I still implemented a prevention regimen into our offseason program and was more diligent about noticing at risk biomechanical stuff (hamstring to quad ratio, knees folding in when jumping and landing, etc).
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Post by s73 on Nov 14, 2016 20:19:45 GMT -6
We're scratching our heads as a coaching staff because none of us have had as many ACL injuries (all are requiring surgery) as we've had this year. We had new turf installed in our stadium where 3 of them happened. The other 3 happened on away games where the teams had relatively new turf. Has anyone else had a problem with this? Does it have something to do with our cleats or is it the newer turf (I don't want to drop the brand name on here in the case it's not that)? Or, is it strength and conditioning related (the previous 2 years we had 1 ACL and last year we changed it up a little bit in the off-season)? I would guess bad luck. We have always been lucky with injuries & I feel we do a nice job in the weight room which helps. Then out of nowhere we broke 4 wrists this year. No rhyme or reason. It was crazy. many of the kids injured did a real nice job for us in the weight room. It was bizarre but I think in a game like this, with dudes flying around, the old saying $hit happens applies. I wouldn't over analyze. JMO. |
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Post by pvogel on Nov 15, 2016 9:19:21 GMT -6
Sounds like tough luck.
Ive always been weary of turf but thats also out of your control and I dont know the right answer to that.
But I would just make sure that your workouts are balanced. Posterior/Anterior is just as important as upper/lower body, and overlooked a lot. Everyone wants to squat but are you doing RDLs, Side Lunges and other leg variations to work out everything. Gotta make sure the hamstrings are getting worked as well.
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Post by IronmanFootball on Nov 15, 2016 10:17:25 GMT -6
Any evidence of this? I'm asking because we used BFS for many years and never experienced any undue injury problems. I don't care one way or the other but I do find that the S&C community to be amusing in their clannishness. Man, I'm not so sure on this, we were the bfs school of the year in 2012, And in fact went above and beyond what it did. We went 6 days a week and never had any knee injury. Since all of us left after the spring 13, they have had tons of knee injuries. Changed the lifting program. Where I was at the last 3 years we changed to tripahsic training 2015-16. Super tremendous gains! Like one injury, ankle sprain . Went 12-1, and then state runner-up in powerlifting. Powerlifting- I could care less 12-1- that's badass, congrats. The coach that shot down BFS has multiple PHD's and is at a top 5 ranked CFB program in the country The other coach that shot it down is on the Glazier circuit annually and was in the think tank that invented BFS and Crossfit. |
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Post by silkyice on Nov 15, 2016 12:48:41 GMT -6
Lifting in the BFS program takes a toll on the teenage body. Some people call Greg Shepard "The Butcher" because of how his program tears down the body. I don't even know how to adequately begin to respond to this. What are you talking about? |
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Post by coachcb on Nov 15, 2016 13:02:40 GMT -6
I won't even touch the BFS conversation...
But, it honestly difficult to tear an ACL, especially to the point where the athlete needs surgery. It takes an incredible amount of force in the wrong direction to accomplish that. I believe that the turf combined with the shoes is the culprit.
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Post by fantom on Nov 15, 2016 13:52:30 GMT -6
I won't even touch the BFS conversation... But, it honestly difficult to tear an ACL, especially to the point where the athlete needs surgery. It takes an incredible amount of force in the wrong direction to accomplish that. I believe that the turf combined with the shoes is the culprit. Pure speculation but I wonder if the old cleats don't mesh well with the new turf. |
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Post by coachcb on Nov 15, 2016 14:06:00 GMT -6
I won't even touch the BFS conversation... But, it honestly difficult to tear an ACL, especially to the point where the athlete needs surgery. It takes an incredible amount of force in the wrong direction to accomplish that. I believe that the turf combined with the shoes is the culprit. Pure speculation but I wonder if the old cleats don't mesh well with the new turf. That would be my guess. Hard plants plus too much traction equates to torn up knees. |
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Post by leighty on Nov 15, 2016 14:52:41 GMT -6
Powerlifting- I could care less 12-1- that's badass, congrats. The coach that shot down BFS has multiple PHD's and is at a top 5 ranked CFB program in the country The other coach that shot it down is on the Glazier circuit annually and was in the think tank that invented BFS and Crossfit. Ah. Crossfit. Explains everything. |
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Post by IronmanFootball on Nov 15, 2016 15:43:03 GMT -6
Powerlifting- I could care less 12-1- that's badass, congrats. The coach that shot down BFS has multiple PHD's and is at a top 5 ranked CFB program in the country The other coach that shot it down is on the Glazier circuit annually and was in the think tank that invented BFS and Crossfit. Ah. Crossfit. Explains everything. I'm not a Crossfit person or a BFS person. I think a mix of both + Dale Baskett + yoga + my own trial/error has worked well for me. My wife did crossfit as part of her MMA training and they damn near killed her bc it's overzealous {censored} taught by people with no real training. What I was implying via Crossfit was he was in a think-tank that invented 2 things on "polar ends" according to their followers. |
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Post by 19delta on Nov 15, 2016 16:36:33 GMT -6
Lifting in the BFS program takes a toll on the teenage body. Some people call Greg Shepard "The Butcher" because of how his program tears down the body. Who are these people? I have NEVER heard Shepard called "The Butcher" and I have been familiar with BFS since the mid-1990s. |
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Post by fantom on Nov 15, 2016 16:39:03 GMT -6
Guys, let's not hijack the thread. I've started another thread on the S&C board.
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Post by 19delta on Nov 15, 2016 16:45:28 GMT -6
Guys, let's not hijack the thread. I've started another thread on the S&C board. I'm not hijacking the thread. A post was made in which it was claimed that the BFS program is somehow responsible for numerous otherwise preventable knee injuries and the that the guy who established the BFS program is widely known by a highly unfavorable nickname. I would like some followup and proof. Otherwise, I will have to go with my initial gut instinct when I first read that post, which is that the guy who posted it is full of $hit and, as a result of that, completely talking out of his a$$. |
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Post by runthei on Nov 16, 2016 10:42:38 GMT -6
I won't even touch the BFS conversation... But, it honestly difficult to tear an ACL, especially to the point where the athlete needs surgery. It takes an incredible amount of force in the wrong direction to accomplish that. I believe that the turf combined with the shoes is the culprit. Pure speculation but I wonder if the old cleats don't mesh well with the new turf. And typically I'd hang my hat on this but we're using the same model cleat we've used the last 3 seasons (all while playing on turf most of the time) and the lone ACL injury we had before the monstrous number this year was a non-contact on grass. |
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