forfeit or not, whatever, coach can do what he sees fit and deal with whatever consequences that may come with it.
my issue would be playing the "same league" with someone who doesn't play by the same rules as me (if I read that right). If we're all gonna be competing with each other we need to all follow the same rules
I agree that if it were to actually happen on a large scale it would probably force the private school to find a better situation to play in. But in the process it would screw over a bunch of kids at the private school that aren't really at fault for the situation. I hope this doesnt catch on, sports are about measuring yourself against the best not hiding because the other guy is too good.
Wouldn't this mean you should stay at you public school and not try and go to stacked a team? This reminds me of when they asked Michael Jordan about LeBron leaving Cleveland to go to Miami and if he would have done something like that. He said no, "I wanted to beat the best."
You mean like Cleveland beating the 73-9 defending NBA champions Golden State Warriors?
Just to defend the whole private school aspect. I have been at a private school, and have visited dozens of them. Most of them do more recruiting of international students who've never even heard of football than of football players. The thing is we don't worry about those, its the 5% that go and recruit the whole state that are the tip of the iceberg that everyone judges by.
I am in the heart of it here in so cal, and the biggest recruiters are public schools. Frankly I think they should realign public school leagues too based on the pct. of your students that did not graduate from a feeder MS.
Everything in life is either a tool to serve the Lord and do his work, or an idol to distract us from Him.
I agree that if it were to actually happen on a large scale it would probably force the private school to find a better situation to play in. But in the process it would screw over a bunch of kids at the private school that aren't really at fault for the situation. I hope this doesnt catch on, sports are about measuring yourself against the best not hiding because the other guy is too good.
Wouldn't this mean you should stay at you public school and not try and go to stacked a team? This reminds me of when they asked Michael Jordan about LeBron leaving Cleveland to go to Miami and if he would have done something like that. He said no, "I wanted to beat the best."
I guess, but I don't get to parent those kids and decide where they go to school, I only get to coach my team, and we're playing.
The big private in my state has the best facilities in the state, including two D1 colleges, and something like a 99% college placement rate, and their team is on ESPN several times a year. The public school district is one of the worst rated in the country, so I won't begrudge a parent that sends their talented son to the private school. All I can say is that in my opinion playing them is a chance to measure up against the best in the country, that's an opportunity that not many get.
Think it was more about trying to force private schools into their own conference. It was done in TN with some basketball teams. IMO is was more about trying to force a change.
Think it was more about trying to force private schools into their own conference. It was done in TN with some basketball teams. IMO is was more about trying to force a change.
If that's it I'm all for it.
A former Steeler, asked what Chuck Noll would think of the hours put in by modern coaches said, "He'd be amazed that there were people so inefficient that they couldn't get everything done in a working day".
We are supposed to be molding these kids into MEN... what kind of example are these guys setting about dealing with adversity?
I have gotten beat (and have been fortunate enough to steal a few) against the power houses in my area.
One team we used to play twice a year was St. Anthony's about 40 of their kids were 200lbs and over (on a good year they would actually RUN OUT OF JERSEY#'s because they would have over 99 players)
And every time we played them or the other power houses, the kids learned a good lesson and "grew up" that day
These coaches lose 100% of their credibility when they tell their kids "We can beat the world" and on out of the other side of their mouths they say "but not these guys"
Last Edit: Oct 7, 2016 22:36:45 GMT -6 by somecoach
So many different aspects to this article and story. Just a few thoughts
1) The school that forfeited is a "2A" school with an enrollment figure of 642 (according to a google search) Archbishop Murray is a "1A" school with enrollment numbers of 403 (from state association news article) or 565(from website) , but elected to play up into 2A. The league/district they are in is apparently a "split class" district, with some 2A schools and some 1A schools, meaning the school that forfeited enjoys the benefit of playing against schools with a lower enrollment. So to the mommie with her 117lb baby who is fresh from Middle School...your kid shouldn't be playing Varsity ball at a school with a 642 Enrollment.
2) Having 6 players over 250 lbs (and 3 giants over 3 bills) for schools with over 600 kids doesn't seem absolutely unworldly. Rare..yes, but I have been a part of a program that had something similar. Small 2A private school. Smallest (and best) Oline was 240. 3 guys over 300. It seems that the problem is that for the Archbishop Murray guys, they are big, and football is important to them.
3)This seems to be more of a public/private issue than a true competitive issue, and it highlights the fact that at the smaller school level (even though I don't know if 400-600 kids is small school in my mind) privates do have things in place that if exploited, can produce a very strong program.
4) I have read several posts that seem to insinuate that public schools have some inherent ownership to students, and that students who chose to attend a private school are somehow violating some obligation.
Last Edit: Oct 8, 2016 7:25:42 GMT -6 by coachd5085
“As to methods there may be a million and then some, but principles are few. The man who grasps principles can successfully select his own methods. The man who tries methods, ignoring principles, is sure to have trouble.”-- ---Ralph Waldo Emerson apparently would have been a great football coach!
I agree that if it were to actually happen on a large scale it would probably force the private school to find a better situation to play in. But in the process it would screw over a bunch of kids at the private school that aren't really at fault for the situation. I hope this doesnt catch on, sports are about measuring yourself against the best not hiding because the other guy is too good.
Wouldn't this mean you should stay at you public school and not try and go to stacked a team? This reminds me of when they asked Michael Jordan about LeBron leaving Cleveland to go to Miami and if he would have done something like that. He said no, "I wanted to beat the best."
Your comment about kids going to a private school to "stack a team" is very single minded. When kids and parents choose a private school, stacking a team isn't in the top 3 of their reasons to go there.
Wouldn't this mean you should stay at you public school and not try and go to stacked a team? This reminds me of when they asked Michael Jordan about LeBron leaving Cleveland to go to Miami and if he would have done something like that. He said no, "I wanted to beat the best."
Your comment about kids going to a private school to "stack a team" is very single minded. When kids and parents choose a private school, stacking a team isn't in the top 3 of their reasons to go there.
Maybe not where you are, but in FL, where kids can now transfer to any school, at any time, for any reason, and be immediately eligible (that rule starts next year) you can bet your @$$ that is the primary reason for transferring!! We've had 20+ starters transfer away the past 4 years, mostly skill kids who "wouldn't get touches" in our Wing-T offense. We had 6 kids transfer to us this year, which has helped, but we aren't holding our breath on any of the underclassmen staying.
We have stopped associating with the private schools in our area. They would openly recruit our players and coaches during 7-on-7 in the offseason. 2 local teams are coached by former NFL players. The coaches wives run a tutoring, scholarship, grant-writing program for inner-city youth, and somehow, most of those kids end up at those 2 schools. Other private schools in the area have Headmasters with very little interest in sports. Those teams field 15 kids, if any, and they DO have have a 114lb kid on their varsity. They have had to forfeit games due to player numbers, and I can recall at least once forfeiting to a local powerhouse.
Again, I'm not taking sides in this, but I can definitely see how a school wouldn't want to put their kids at risk.
Wouldn't this mean you should stay at you public school and not try and go to stacked a team? This reminds me of when they asked Michael Jordan about LeBron leaving Cleveland to go to Miami and if he would have done something like that. He said no, "I wanted to beat the best."
Your comment about kids going to a private school to "stack a team" is very single minded. When kids and parents choose a private school, stacking a team isn't in the top 3 of their reasons to go there.
You're in Rhode Island? I'm not sure that you have the pulse of the country on this one.
A former Steeler, asked what Chuck Noll would think of the hours put in by modern coaches said, "He'd be amazed that there were people so inefficient that they couldn't get everything done in a working day".
Your comment about kids going to a private school to "stack a team" is very single minded. When kids and parents choose a private school, stacking a team isn't in the top 3 of their reasons to go there.
Maybe not where you are, but in FL, where kids can now transfer to any school, at any time, for any reason, and be immediately eligible (that rule starts next year) you can bet your @$$ that is the primary reason for transferring!! We've had 20+ starters transfer away the past 4 years, mostly skill kids who "wouldn't get touches" in our Wing-T offense. We had 6 kids transfer to us this year, which has helped, but we aren't holding our breath on any of the underclassmen staying.
We have stopped associating with the private schools in our area. They would openly recruit our players and coaches during 7-on-7 in the offseason. 2 local teams are coached by former NFL players. The coaches wives run a tutoring, scholarship, grant-writing program for inner-city youth, and somehow, most of those kids end up at those 2 schools. Other private schools in the area have Headmasters with very little interest in sports. Those teams field 15 kids, if any, and they DO have have a 114lb kid on their varsity. They have had to forfeit games due to player numbers, and I can recall at least once forfeiting to a local powerhouse.
Again, I'm not taking sides in this, but I can definitely see how a school wouldn't want to put their kids at risk.
I understand that, but I still don't beleive kids go private because they want to stack a team. These teams are already stacked. Their reason for leaving is much more "selfish" than that. Athletics wise, kids go to a private school because they beleive they will get more exposure to get them to the next level. The team being stacked is a by product.
Your comment about kids going to a private school to "stack a team" is very single minded. When kids and parents choose a private school, stacking a team isn't in the top 3 of their reasons to go there.
You're in Rhode Island? I'm not sure that you have the pulse of the country on this one.
We have 2 very good private schools here who play out of state games for their non leaguers. Bishop Hendricken is one of the best teams in the northeast. They are stacked year in and year out. Nobody is going there to stack the team that's already a powerhouse.
You're in Rhode Island? I'm not sure that you have the pulse of the country on this one.
We have 2 very good private schools here who play out of state games for their non leaguers. Bishop Hendricken is one of the best teams in the northeast. They are stacked year in and year out. Nobody is going there to stack the team that's already a powerhouse.
Actually, I agree with your previous post. Kids don't go to privates to help the team. They go to get a scholarship. Unfortunately, they find that: A. They wasted their money because they would have gotten that schollie if they'd stayed at the public school. or B. The better competition exposed them as average players.
A former Steeler, asked what Chuck Noll would think of the hours put in by modern coaches said, "He'd be amazed that there were people so inefficient that they couldn't get everything done in a working day".
Hendricken, the school I mentioned always has 60+ players just on their freshmen team. Many of these freshmen transfer back to their public school because they realize there's 10 other players just as good if not better than them at their position.
"Archbishop Murphy has six players who weight at least 250 pounds and three who weigh at least 300 pounds"
Really??? That's pretty much every friday night in D1 and D2 in Ohio. We have 17 kids at least 250 lbs and 4 at 300 or above.
More than anything I think this article shows the differences from state to state and obviously team to team. Maybe these teams need to be in different divisions.
this would be what needs to happen.. if teams are going to be in the same league, district, conference whatever, then they all need to follow along with the same rules.
that is one thing TX has right imo regarding the UIL and Tapps.. they can play each other but its not conference at all.
There is a school ion the highest class in this state that wanted to play a JV schedule this year because they're playing "a bunch of freshman and sophomores" and they're "afraid for their kids safety". The state sport organization denied their petition so they forfeited the whole season... This program is one of the worst in the state, year after year but I found it absolutely ridiculous that their staff would allow the season to be forfeited. So, they may not be fielding a team any time soon as everyone feels that this was a death knell for the program. But, I agree with fantom: you shouldn't be fielding a program if it's gotten so bad that they feel the need to forfeit games.
Yes, a team who perennially can not field a team shouldn't, that makes sense. Not putting enough resources into a program is a disservice to the kids and the school. The original story isn't about that, tho. This wasn't one team who sucked. This was an area with a massive program, with resources beyond the means of any other school in the area.
Dont be a guppy in a bass pond, but dont be mad at the bass for wanting the gator relocated.
Our HC and one of their assistants were college teammates and talk regularly. Their coach said they tried at the end of last season to change leagues and their league they were trying to leave denied it.
Post by IronmanFootball on Oct 11, 2016 15:21:11 GMT -6
How about this- In my past life I was a HC at a small charter school (lottery system for acceptance). We had 25 or so kids on the varsity roster, grades 8-12. I'm contacted by a local private school & they want to schedule us. I'm hesitant but he tells me the roster has 30 kids, they have won 1 game in 3 years, come watch our spring game and see for yourself. So I do. They're OK but we can compete with them. They're 4A we're 2A.
BUT, I see a kid I know on their sideline in their colors, throwing passes and patting butts during timeouts- at that time he's enrolled and on the roster at a public school 20 minutes away. I stupidly think "OK, that's a pretty big violation, but it's just one kid." By the time I get the film the next year to prep, it's around 10 new kids and the roster has ballooned up near 50. Not exactly the game the HC sold me in March or again in May. That kid had transferred over there and we got whooped. I don't care about getting beat, or even beat badly, and no one was cheap shotting us so we lived to fight another day. But that's a load of BS and not exactly what HS athletics is supposed to be. Also, you aren't a good coach if that's what it takes for you to have the same record we had.
Also- public schools everywhere recruit too. Don't think it's just private schools. Google Miami High basketball back when Frank Martin was the coach, or Dr Phillips Football, etc.
I have been playing devils advocate for most of this thread, understanding a time when a vastly unlevel playing field can create safety issues for teams. I did some VERY cursory research last night on Hudl, checking out Archbishop F-U, as well as the various Schools Of The Blind that have been forfeiting games. This Archbishop Bully school has nice facilities, sure, but nothing stood out watching film. Nothing poor really stood out watching the poor schools who were forfeiting. While Archbishop had some really good athletes, more than the other schools, it didn't look like anything out of the ordinary.
I'm officially on the side of Arhcbishop. Play the darn game, take your loss, make your kids better for it.
I've coached in the state of Washington for 40 years and our state association needs a testicle transplant. Private schools have a draw area of 50 miles and the public has their traditional boundaries and no further. Private schools like ATM can offer "financial aid". Public schools of course cannot. I have had multiple players recruited away by them over the years. They have a habit of running up the score and when they were down for a short period due to internal drama, no one felt sorry for them when they took their lumps. Private donors can write a check on behalf of a promising athlete and no one ever hears about it. Even playing up a classification may not be the answer. I say since they have different rules, let them have different tournaments.
Hendricken, the school I mentioned always has 60+ players just on their freshmen team. Many of these freshmen transfer back to their public school because they realize there's 10 other players just as good if not better than them at their position.
Similar in MA. I live right outside of Boston, we get a ton of kids who go private for a year or two then come back because they aren't as good as they think. What kills our town is that our youth league does not play any out of town teams, it's literally an intra-city neighborhood league (one bordering city plays too) but that's it. Every youth team has a really fast skill guy they just give the rock to and everyone else is mediocre. So some kids go private because they think they're really good, only to find out there are other talented guys but more skilled and physical. Happens in every sport. A lot of times here it is not the kids fault, they've been fed the hype on how good they are because they beat up on nobodies.