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Post by mariner42 on Jul 11, 2016 12:08:16 GMT -6
Coaching JV ball, have an incredibly talented group that could really be something special by the time they're done. As freshmen, they started out 0-2-1 due to playing poor, uninspired ball in the first half of games before playing lights out in the second half. The next 7 games they gave up 2 TDs total, beat a frosh-soph squad badly, and generally slapped people around.
We just had a camp this weekend and they were back to old habits, sleep walking until they were down two scores before getting it together and playing some dominant football.
I swear this group needs to be punched in the mouth in order to get going. Any ideas? I know I need to turn up our practice intensity, but I'm trying to think about how to approach their mentality.
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Post by coachphillip on Jul 11, 2016 12:10:41 GMT -6
I always liked the idea of starting practices with some full tilt competition to get them accustomed to coming out firing.
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Post by CS on Jul 11, 2016 12:13:08 GMT -6
Coaching JV ball, have an incredibly talented group that could really be something special by the time they're done. As freshmen, they started out 0-2-1 due to playing poor, uninspired ball in the first half of games before playing lights out in the second half. The next 7 games they gave up 2 TDs total, beat a frosh-soph squad badly, and generally slapped people around. We just had a camp this weekend and they were back to old habits, sleep walking until they were down two scores before getting it together and playing some dominant football. I swear this group needs to be punched in the mouth in order to get going. Any ideas? I know I need to turn up our practice intensity, but I'm trying to think about how to approach their mentality. Just punch them in the mouth......  |
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Post by jgordon1 on Jul 11, 2016 12:16:21 GMT -6
honestly, that's one of the hardest things in coaching AND in human behavior..the tendency to to find the easiest way. if you find a cure you will be rich
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Post by bigmoot on Jul 11, 2016 12:25:16 GMT -6
Know a coach who once stopped at a nearby field and scrimmaged for 20-30 minutes then got back on the bus, went to the stadium and whipped butt...
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Post by dubber on Jul 11, 2016 12:47:09 GMT -6
What have you tried so far?
And, have you identified the leaders of this group?
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Post by mariner42 on Jul 11, 2016 13:22:40 GMT -6
What have you tried so far? And, have you identified the leaders of this group? Leaders: QB - terrific kid, loves his teammates, all the intangibles you want except confidence in himself. RB/OLB - The epitome of this group. If he gets hit hard or gets embarrassed by a play, he turns it up to 11. Calls teammates out when necessary. The group are all nice kids that work hard and have some major talent, but the really spectacular athletes are both quiet, unassuming guys. I don't have an OL leader yet, which needs to be addressed imo. Their freshman year their coach was pulling his hair out trying to figure them out. In the off-season stuff prior to this weekend they've been uber competitive, but at camp it was more of the same. I like coachphillip's idea of starting out with some meaningful competition right out of the gate. I'm also going to start keeping score O vs D in our team time with something unfun for the losers. |
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Post by rsmith627 on Jul 11, 2016 15:00:49 GMT -6
Our team last year was a lot like this, and the kids coming up to my JV team this year are the same way. My plan is to get them competing constantly. Once the pads go on, game like scenarios. It's 4th and 3 from the goal line and we are down by 4 with 10 seconds left. Offense gets x number of plays to score, etc. During team time we will get out the chains and move them, etc.
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Post by blb on Jul 11, 2016 15:29:10 GMT -6
mariner, let me get this right before I respond -
You're somehow playing games now ("sleep walking until they're down two scores before getting it together...") or is that evaluation from last season?
Either way - it's early JULY. The NFL doesn't even start training camp for a couple weeks and exhibition games until August.
If I were a Sophomore or Freshman I'd probably not have a sense of urgency now with start of "real" season weeks off.
After all, they're 14-15 years old.
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Post by mariner42 on Jul 11, 2016 15:31:25 GMT -6
mariner, let me get this right before I respond - You're somehow playing games now ("sleep walking until they're down two scores before getting it together...") or is that evaluation from last season? Either way - it's early JULY. The NFL doesn't even start training camp for a couple weeks and exhibition games until August. If I were a Sophomore or Freshman I'd probably not have a sense of urgency now with start of "real" season weeks off. After all, they're 14-15 years old. Not real games, at a camp. Not a real scrimmage, either, but the concern is mostly them falling into old habits. |
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Post by bigmoot on Jul 11, 2016 16:05:43 GMT -6
Our team last year was a lot like this, and the kids coming up to my JV team this year are the same way. My plan is to get them competing constantly. Once the pads go on, game like scenarios. It's 4th and 3 from the goal line and we are down by 4 with 10 seconds left. Offense gets x number of plays to score, etc. During team time we will get out the chains and move them, etc. Things like this...maybe goaline as the first thing on the schedule. Start practice in high gear. |
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Post by rsmith627 on Jul 11, 2016 16:07:11 GMT -6
Our team last year was a lot like this, and the kids coming up to my JV team this year are the same way. My plan is to get them competing constantly. Once the pads go on, game like scenarios. It's 4th and 3 from the goal line and we are down by 4 with 10 seconds left. Offense gets x number of plays to score, etc. During team time we will get out the chains and move them, etc. Things like this...maybe goaline as the first thing on the schedule. Start practice in high gear. Goal line is exactly how I want to start, but for my own good. Last year we stalled way too often from 5 yards or less out. That's on me and my practice style. I like the idea of getting down and dirty right away too. High stakes right out of the gates. |
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Post by funkfriss on Jul 11, 2016 17:19:24 GMT -6
honestly, that's one of the hardest things in coaching AND in human behavior..the tendency to to find the easiest way. if you find a cure you will be rich This. We had a group some years back that was exactly the same way. We actually did Oklahoma on the game field to stimulate them to no avail. Do you have game goals? We do for every game and they change depending on what we need to win. Heard Bobby Bowden say why would you have the same goals for the #1 team that you had for BF U? Therefore, if I were you I would establish early goals (score on 1st possession, stop opponent on their 1st possession, create a turnover in the 1st quarter, 0 negative runs in the 1st quarter, whatever). We give the entire group stickers for achieving one of our game goals. I wish we had done this back then... |
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Post by groundchuck on Jul 11, 2016 17:42:04 GMT -6
We break our dynamic warm up into position groups to start practice. I think this causes kids to focus up more. Small group. Tougher to hide. Then we get into competitive edge for 5 min. This is full go. Competition fires them up. Then we throttle down for a few periods. Tempo is always up but I think there needs to be an ebb and flow to the intensity. Level 3-5-8. We try to spend most of the time at level 5 so speak.
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Post by lochness on Jul 11, 2016 19:53:22 GMT -6
We break our dynamic warm up into position groups to start practice. I think this causes kids to focus up more. Small group. Tougher to hide. Then we get into competitive edge for 5 min. This is full go. Competition fires them up. Then we throttle down for a few periods. Tempo is always up but I think there needs to be an ebb and flow to the intensity. Level 3-5-8. We try to spend most of the time at level 5 so speak. What's "competitive edge?" |
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Post by shocktroop34 on Jul 11, 2016 20:19:27 GMT -6
If you're referring to just game play, I had the same trouble with a few different teams.
One of the tactics that I used, was to have them play little games within the big game.
We tried to set goals (rewarded with helmet stickers) to keep them focused on starting hot.
e.g. strive for at least 3 three and outs during the first quarter and zero missed tackles.
Offense has to put together at least 2 drives putting you in the red zone, or goal line, or whatever.
I can't even think of everything we used to do, just throwing ideas out there, but consider tailoring some things to keep their focus at the very beginning of the game.
They strike me as a confident bunch of kids who can see the end game, and don't mind giving you a heart attack in the mean time. I would guess that they have yet to understand the importance of playing four solid quarters (again, I've been there). They are good now, but will loose against the top tier teams unless they learn to dominate for 48 min.
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Post by coachwoodall on Jul 11, 2016 21:26:03 GMT -6
What have you tried so far? And, have you identified the leaders of this group? Leaders: QB - terrific kid, loves his teammates, all the intangibles you want except confidence in himself. RB/OLB - The epitome of this group. If he gets hit hard or gets embarrassed by a play, he turns it up to 11. Calls teammates out when necessary. The group are all nice kids that work hard and have some major talent, but the really spectacular athletes are both quiet, unassuming guys. I don't have an OL leader yet, which needs to be addressed imo. Their freshman year their coach was pulling his hair out trying to figure them out. In the off-season stuff prior to this weekend they've been uber competitive, but at camp it was more of the same. I like coachphillip 's idea of starting out with some meaningful competition right out of the gate. I'm also going to start keeping score O vs D in our team time with something unfun for the losers. Most likely it's like jgordon has mentioned, but here's 2 other things to chew cud on: You said the OLB/RB is the 'epitome of this group' Do the kids look to him to make a play? Get something going? To make a statement on the field? I've had teams like that and if 'The Guy' didn't get going early, you knew it was going to be a struggle. There are several ways to try and spark 'the play' but it might end up being a game plan thing to get him going early. But the down side is that the opposition can try and take that away, so the game plan solution might be get somebody else to be an option to make the statement play. Or it could be QB's lack of confidence rubs on other players. He makes a mistake or simply doesn't step forward to lead when leadership is needed. Developing that confidence is a tough thing. You might need to really work on getting him to believe in something; a set of plays to showcase his talents, that he has to take charge and not just let the OLB/RB set the tone, or maybe he needs to work the locker room and find that OL guy for you. Freshman are basically pretty stupid. They don't know any better. They're coming into high school and EVERYONE is older/bigger/more experienced/etc..... You really have to work on their heads. Talk them up and make them think they are better than they really are. Make everything they do outside of the game field be an example of how they are going to walk the dog on everyone they see on the field. |
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Post by joker31 on Jul 11, 2016 23:05:46 GMT -6
Found this has happened with us some the last couple years, especially in the beginning of the year when we're still teaching lots of our plays.
We do the "whole part whole" teaching method when installing new plays. So at the beginning of practice, we will literally walkthrough the new play, do individual and teach the specifics, put it all together at the end.
Looking at maybe doing rapid fire plays vs. air or a live team period to begin offensive practice before installing the new play.
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Post by coachbdud on Jul 12, 2016 0:47:20 GMT -6
one year i did oklahoma drill before the game, everyone had to just get 1 rep in
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Post by CS on Jul 12, 2016 4:04:04 GMT -6
If you're referring to just game play, I had the same trouble with a few different teams. One of the tactics that I used, was to have them play little games within the big game. We tried to set goals (rewarded with helmet stickers) to keep them focused on starting hot. e.g. strive for at least 3 three and outs during the first quarter and zero missed tackles. Offense has to put together at least 2 drives putting you in the red zone, or goal line, or whatever. I can't even think of everything we used to do, just throwing ideas out there, but consider tailoring some things to keep their focus at the very beginning of the game. They strike me as a confident bunch of kids who can see the end game, and don't mind giving you a heart attack in the mean time. I would guess that they have yet to understand the importance of playing four solid quarters (again, I've been there). They are good now, but will loose against the top tier teams unless they learn to dominate for 48 min. I like this idea. Consider it stolen |
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Post by shocktroop34 on Jul 12, 2016 6:04:27 GMT -6
honestly, that's one of the hardest things in coaching AND in human behavior..the tendency to to find the easiest way. if you find a cure you will be rich This. We had a group some years back that was exactly the same way. We actually did Oklahoma on the game field to stimulate them to no avail. Do you have game goals? We do for every game and they change depending on what we need to win. Heard Bobby Bowden say why would you have the same goals for the #1 team that you had for BF U? Therefore, if I were you I would establish early goals (score on 1st possession, stop opponent on their 1st possession, create a turnover in the 1st quarter, 0 negative runs in the 1st quarter, whatever). We give the entire group stickers for achieving one of our game goals. I wish we had done this back then... Sorry Coach, I didn't read your post before I wrote mine. We do similar things. Your ideas are good ones. Specific and measurable. |
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Post by natenator on Jul 12, 2016 7:21:00 GMT -6
Cattle prod
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Post by sweep26 on Jul 12, 2016 8:09:58 GMT -6
What you tolerate, you encourage!!
If you tolerate that B.S. effort, you are doing those kids a tremendous disservice. When they get out in the real world (unless they are working for mommy or daddy) their behinds will get fired in no time for being so disrespectful and shirking their responsibilities. The importance of work ethic and commitment to excellence has to be learned...that is part of what makes this job so much fun!!
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Post by groundchuck on Jul 14, 2016 13:28:08 GMT -6
We break our dynamic warm up into position groups to start practice. I think this causes kids to focus up more. Small group. Tougher to hide. Then we get into competitive edge for 5 min. This is full go. Competition fires them up. Then we throttle down for a few periods. Tempo is always up but I think there needs to be an ebb and flow to the intensity. Level 3-5-8. We try to spend most of the time at level 5 so speak. What's "competitive edge?" Competitive Edge or Comp Edge, or CE as we abbreviate it on our practice plans is a 5 min period where we coaches have either manufactured match-ups or the players call each other out. Example the rec/RB and DB will go 1on1 from the 10 yard line. QB and WR know the route. DB is in man. Let's go. Receiver scores, he wins. We can have two groups going at once. While they are doing that the OL might be doing king of the boards for example. It's 5 min. The winner gets out of something, the loser has to do something. ANother example might be 1on1 or 2on2 tug of war. We usually pick these match-ups in the coaches office prior to coming outside. We want to see who will compete and who will back down. |
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Post by funkfriss on Jul 14, 2016 15:22:52 GMT -6
Maybe it's just me but I think the whole "competing at the start" thing is overrated. If that's your thing and it's what you always do then I get it and I'm not speaking to you, but if you are theorizing that starting practice or a game with a manufactured competition will make players compete harder in the next event (next drill, start of game) then I think you are on the wrong track. And I want to point out that this was our theory about 6 years ago when we had a group of slow starters. Didn't help. The drill was competitive, but once the game started, same old same old.
What I have come to believe is that some people need immediate results for their efforts. For example, some kids don't see the benefit of studying every night when they can cram the night before. They get no results, no reward for the effort at that time. Also, the thinking is that I don't need all that effort to get the desired results. I'll be good when the time comes for me to perform. BTW this is how many kids view lifting and/or practice as well.
So the same goes for an early score or defensive stop. Sure everybody WANTS to score or stop the opponent, but maybe the score or stop can happen with a little less effort. If the s*** hits the fan and we need it, I can turn it on then to achieve the ultimate goal of winning the game.
IMO, giving a group of such thinkers a goal and reward for early competitive results has a better chance of getting the desired behavior than manufactured competition. Sometimes it is only one or two kids that need it. That's why you're the coach and a big part of your job is figuring out what makes everyone tick.
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Post by fshamrock on Jul 14, 2016 15:48:58 GMT -6
Once saw a team in warm-ups going full tilt live scrimmage. When asked his reasoning coach said his team had been slow to start so he wanted them to be good and "lathered up" before the game even started....seemed crazy to me but whatever works.
I think honestly that teams start slow because they want to feel the other team out, (think about two fighters circling for a few rounds) kids who aren't mentally tough instinctively want to get the measure of the opponent early in the contest, if it looks like victory is likely, they will turn it on and go...if it looks like the other team is better they will back away from it entirely so they don't expend all of their energy if they are gonna lose anyway. I'm not saying your kids do this consciously...just happens. Thats how we get momentum in games, all that happens is a play is made and kids think "holy crap we can win this thing" so they get fired up and start attacking, while the other team says "holy crap we are going to lose" and the anxiety they feel from fear of losing causes them to start making more mistakes...thus begins the downward spiral that we've all been a part of. This is the crux of Sabans "process" that people have a tough time wrapping their heads around, Saban tries to create a team that is "momentum proof" because the focus is not on the outcome (final score) but the process (this play)
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Post by rsmith627 on Jul 14, 2016 20:31:16 GMT -6
Once saw a team in warm-ups going full tilt live scrimmage. When asked his reasoning coach said his team had been slow to start so he wanted them to be good and "lathered up" before the game even started....seemed crazy to me but whatever works. I think honestly that teams start slow because they want to feel the other team out, (think about two fighters circling for a few rounds) kids who aren't mentally tough instinctively want to get the measure of the opponent early in the contest, if it looks like victory is likely, they will turn it on and go...if it looks like the other team is better they will back away from it entirely so they don't expend all of their energy if they are gonna lose anyway. I'm not saying your kids do this consciously...just happens. Thats how we get momentum in games, all that happens is a play is made and kids think "holy crap we can win this thing" so they get fired up and start attacking, while the other team says "holy crap we are going to lose" and the anxiety they feel from fear of losing causes them to start making more mistakes...thus begins the downward spiral that we've all been a part of. This is the crux of Sabans "process" that people have a tough time wrapping their heads around, Saban tries to create a team that is "momentum proof" because the focus is not on the outcome (final score) but the process (this play) Interesting point. As an OC I'm a slow starter myself trying to feel out the DC. Our DC would whine because we rarely scored on the opening drive. We averaged 30 ppg but not fast enoygh |
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