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Post by djwesp on Jul 28, 2006 16:30:15 GMT -6
So, we are a wishbone running team (pass probably 3 times at most during a game). We are in a running conference, and do defend the pass decently.
Internally, next year there is a conflict if whether or not we should start 7 on 7.
What do other predominate run teams do?
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Post by shakdaddy3 on Jul 28, 2006 16:56:31 GMT -6
Do it to let your D practice against the pass. Always a good way to practice a "surprise" against teams in your conference that know you don't pass much.
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Post by stone65 on Jul 28, 2006 17:22:04 GMT -6
Even though you only pass 3 times a game, don't you think the practice will help? Do you complete every pass?
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Post by seagull73 on Jul 28, 2006 17:34:13 GMT -6
Run your 3 passes over and over again in your 7 0n 7. It is practice, treat it as such!
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Post by sls on Jul 28, 2006 17:37:34 GMT -6
Several bone teams around us work their defense at 7 on 7 and go 5 wide on offense just to let their kids have fun.
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Post by phantom on Jul 28, 2006 17:38:19 GMT -6
I hate 7 on 7. You'll have to put in stuff that you'll never run in games. As a defensive coach I find it frustrating spending all day on a Saturday trying to defend against a passer who has all day to throw. Sure, there's supposed to be a time limit but in every tournament I've been to it the count oes like this: (Ball is snapped........QB takes a one step drop........................................................................One................thousand...........................one, ............................................One thousand..............2, ........". I hope I never have to go to another one.
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Post by coachm on Jul 28, 2006 18:15:24 GMT -6
Phantom - surprised to hear that as what good does it do to let a QB have all day to throw? We put the ball on the QB Timer and on the snap it counts down whatever the agreed upon time is or (in our case) LESS.
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Post by redfish on Jul 28, 2006 19:05:58 GMT -6
So, we are a wishbone running team (pass probably 3 times at most during a game)...Internally, next year there is a conflict if whether or not we should start 7 on 7... What do other predominate run teams do? So, is the conflict over "we are a running team" or because no one wants to spend the time? You should do it to make yourself a better team. Period. Yeah, I know it's not really football, but no one said if you do 7's, you have to go to a spread scheme. Even though it's done with no pass rush, the quarterback will pass the ball 25 - 50 times several times a summer and THAT will make him a better quarterback. The receivers and backs will catch that many more balls. Your defense needs the work, too. You don't have to run 4 wides in 7's, run them out of the backfield, and from the TE. Heck, just the running while having fun is definitely needed. Our BEST conditioning drills are those that are set up as competition games, sometimes having nothing to do with football. Let your linemen get involved, lord knows they need the cardio. AND, aren't you ready to get better in regard to the passing game? Dad-gum it, I'll come do it, by God! Maybe it will be cooler weather. Any of your kids have speed?
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Post by hchscoachtom on Jul 28, 2006 19:12:01 GMT -6
I'm frustrated with 7 on 7 because it makes our defense passive. Like many leagues around here, run first, pass ?. Takes so much more time and effort to train defense to be aggressive to the run, when they've spent the past 5-6 weeks dropping back in coverages. I'd like to see a 7 on 7 running tournament:-). Just venting. thanks for listening.
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Post by shakdaddy3 on Jul 28, 2006 20:31:39 GMT -6
A great way we make our D more aggressive is having them run to the ball after every play. 1) It makes it instinctive to follow the ball 2) It gets them tired which makes them have to think more and work harder
Also, we make sure to talk to them often about what they need to do when there is a running back lined up behind an O-Line... and that's what the first few days of pads are all about, ain't it?
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fish
Junior Member
Posts: 485
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Post by fish on Jul 28, 2006 21:40:17 GMT -6
we don't participate in the state tournament. our district has its own little league that plays the first part of the summer. other teams in our district do participate in the bigger qualifiers for the state tourney, though. we use it mainly as a means to get the kids together and playing. it is entirely kid organized. the only time a coach is involved is to represent the night of the games.
if you're not interested in the qualifiers, then maybe you can get some schools together to just have your own 'summer league' that's not as serious.
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coachf
Freshmen Member
Posts: 15
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Post by coachf on Jul 28, 2006 22:04:40 GMT -6
We run playaction in the 7-on-7's. We mostly use it for defensive help. It's a matter of having your kids understand that their job is to run the offense and defense as well as possible and focus on your personal team goals.
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Post by senatorblutarsky on Jul 28, 2006 23:37:39 GMT -6
Run your 3 passes over and over again in your 7 0n 7. It is practice, treat it as such!
That's what we do. It helps us know where we are going on D (I worry about it making us passive- we have our guys get two hands on receivers whenever possible... to simulate knocking them down). We do no tournaments, no leagues... we just play a home and home series with 3 schools not in our classification.
We may throw more this year (from 1-2 x per game to 7-10)... so it is a good thing to do. Still, last week we were doing PATs in 7 on 7 and I told our QB "run what you want"... everyone in the huddle said "Toss".
7 on 7 is not real football, but it is better than basketball leagues, basketball camp, baseball, hockey, golf, hanging out by the keg in a cornfield or trying to get somebody pregnant.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 29, 2006 6:28:04 GMT -6
I dread the 7 on 7 competitions. Those don't do many defensive cordinators much good. Despite how much you talk it down, the focus will always be on winning /losing. So what happens...you get a 3rd and 3 situation, and the DC's call man under 2 deep. I pray that our offense faces 2man coverage on 3rd and 3.
That said, as a defensive guy, what I try to do is eliminate the "competition" in terms of moving the ball up and down the field, trying to score touchdowns. This creates lots of arguments with regards to "he was down, he was out of bounds, he caught the ball, etc etc." Just make it a PASS SKELELTON drill. Now, the coaches can script out situations in advance, so that it can be realistic. 1st and 10, you are a 21 personnel team... I am going to call an coverage to fit an 8 man front. 3rd and 12... I am thinking more 7 man fronts..and cover 2, or a 5 or 6 man pressure and man/man free. Things that you "never" do in 7on7 compeititons.
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Post by senatorblutarsky on Jul 29, 2006 11:20:26 GMT -6
That said, as a defensive guy, what I try to do is eliminate the "competition" in terms of moving the ball up and down the field, trying to score touchdowns. This creates lots of arguments with regards to "he was down, he was out of bounds, he caught the ball, etc etc." Just make it a PASS SKELELTON drill. Now, the coaches can script out situations in advance, so that it can be realistic. 1st and 10, you are a 21 personnel team... I am going to call an coverage to fit an 8 man front. 3rd and 12... I am thinking more 7 man fronts..and cover 2, or a 5 or 6 man pressure and man/man free. Things that you "never" do in 7on7 compeititons.
That is kind of what we do. We've gone against the same two teams for several years now- we each get 20 plays from midfield (10-10-10-10), then we get #2s in for 10 each, then we do 1-2 drives each (10 plays- so no 4th down conversion- start over at the 40; score- start over at the 40), then PATs. I like this format much better- but there is one thing I miss from tournament format- competition. We did not always seem to do our best because a lot of my guys have a mindset that "we will go hard when it matters"... not realizing that how you practice is how you play.
I can understand a lot of arguments against 7 on 7... but I remember we discussed this last year- and though it is not realistic- it is a football related activity...and I'm all for those (even if you are 2 TE wishbone)
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Post by spreadattack on Jul 29, 2006 11:22:19 GMT -6
I agree with coachd. It's hard because you can't help but get caught up in it, and our local paper still published "so and so wins college X's 7 on 7 tourney" or "team Y is going to a passing tournament in some other state" as if that's like winning a state title.
I've seen coaches do different things. I think it's good for your defense, good for your athletes to run around. We used to encourage our kids to organize their own passing games over the summer to throw routes, and play some touch football games. On some level that's all this is. Maybe on D you can work your schemes.
I also agree run your 3 passes over and over again. I've seen other coaches and I've thought about it to, is let your QB be the coach and just line them up how he wants and tell everyone what to do. He can even show up with cards telling them what to do. Is he running our base play action scheme or working on his veer reads? No, but it's better than basketball or playing tackle football with no pads in some old field the kids found.
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dial51
Freshmen Member
Posts: 67
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Post by dial51 on Jul 29, 2006 12:47:30 GMT -6
I believe one of the most beneficial aspects of 7 on 7 is the competition factor. I know most teams will compete in leagues, tourney, or just ind. games with other opponents throughout the spring and summer. By playing other teams/opponents you are able to allow kids to compete and be successful (not just win) against non-teammates.
Even in regular practice, it is often difficult to simulate 'Game-speed'. This is a great way to get kids to play at 100% and to just get better athletically.
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Post by Send_the_House on Jul 29, 2006 13:00:22 GMT -6
competition is a good thing... agility/speed/conditioning/teamwork are good things as well...
if your kids are playing or practicing 7on7 they are not, drinking, smoking, doing drugs, breaking the law, or a myriad of other bad things kids do in the summer for lack of constructive activities...
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 29, 2006 13:08:55 GMT -6
I think you can create the competition by emphasizing other measurables..such as completion percentage, pass break ups, etc.
Go to the 7 on 7 tournaments, and you will find 7 db's (3 at linebacker, 4 at db) all playing deep, OR, man under 2 deep.
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Post by djwesp on Jul 29, 2006 13:55:19 GMT -6
So, is the conflict over "we are a running team" or because no one wants to spend the time? You should do it to make yourself a better team. Period. Yeah, I know it's not really football, but no one said if you do 7's, you have to go to a spread scheme. Even though it's done with no pass rush, the quarterback will pass the ball 25 - 50 times several times a summer and THAT will make him a better quarterback. The receivers and backs will catch that many more balls. Your defense needs the work, too. You don't have to run 4 wides in 7's, run them out of the backfield, and from the TE. Heck, just the running while having fun is definitely needed. Our BEST conditioning drills are those that are set up as competition games, sometimes having nothing to do with football. Let your linemen get involved, lord knows they need the cardio. AND, aren't you ready to get better in regard to the passing game? Dad-gum it, I'll come do it, by God! Maybe it will be cooler weather. Any of your kids have speed? The main argument is that we spend the majority of the summer teaching our system. Since we run the wishbone as a system much of our time is spent teaching the qb reads, the lineman blocking schemes, and in the weight room. If participating in 7 on 7 our focus would be shifted away from teaching our offenses fundamentals. Defensively we are okay against the pass, so the main criticism comes from not being able to develop our offense as well in the summer because we are working on 7 on 7 and throwing the ball around. Our hurry up is 4 wide shotgun, and we run this effectively as well. (when down late or at half) What is a supporting argument to actually participate in 7 on 7? Run your 3 passes over and over again in your 7 0n 7. It is practice, treat it as such! Well we have more than 3 pass plays, a lot more, but generally only pass an average of 3 times per game.
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Post by sls on Jul 29, 2006 15:02:58 GMT -6
If your hurry up is 4 wide, I think it makes perfect sense to throw 7 on 7.
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Post by senatorblutarsky on Jul 29, 2006 17:02:48 GMT -6
What is a supporting argument to actually participate in 7 on 7?
For DBs/LBs pattern recognition
For Offense repetitions. We may throw less than you guys dj... and we run toss pass and play action in 7 on 7. Still, I think it makes us better. Plus, When we have full pads on I want to do the passing that we need to and that is it. We devote almost all of our time to the running game- which is OK because we get a lot of kinks worked out in our passing game over the summer. By fall, we are basically just refining our passing game. Now if we could full scrimmage someone once a week this summer and work on run game- well, I would do that instead.
And for us... we are a small school- scout team gives us no real competition. 7 on 7 is good on good... other than games, that is the only time we can get that.
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Post by jhanawa on Jul 30, 2006 15:39:17 GMT -6
I don't see how 7 on 7 cannot be good, even for a team that runs it all the time, what happens during the season when you HAVE to throw the ball? IMO, its good extra practice time for your passing game & hurry up offense. For us, it allows us to have our entire passing game and no huddle package in place during the summer. We also work our option playtiming into our 7 on 7 practices, when we do 7 on 7, we allow perimeter run game, so we will run an option every once in awhile to keep the defense somewhat honest. Defensively, it teaches coverage skills and playing in space. How can this not be a good thing?
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Post by djwesp on Jul 30, 2006 15:51:44 GMT -6
I don't see how 7 on 7 cannot be good, even for a team that runs it all the time, what happens during the season when you HAVE to throw the ball? IMO, its good extra practice time for your passing game & hurry up offense. For us, it allows us to have our entire passing game and no huddle package in place during the summer. We also work our option playtiming into our 7 on 7 practices, when we do 7 on 7, we allow perimeter run game, so we will run an option every once in awhile to keep the defense somewhat honest. Defensively, it teaches coverage skills and playing in space. How can this not be a good thing? IT takes away time we use to teach our offense. We throw the ball effectively and defend it effectively? WHY change? It takes the aggression out of our secondary. It is NOT a team activity. It does not contribute to the fundamentals of what we do 90%+ of the time. It increases our skill position players risk of getting injured, since they are playing someone who could care less.
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Post by phantom on Jul 30, 2006 16:33:24 GMT -6
I think that smaller 7 on 7s (in Virginia we're required to have at least 4 teams) are fine as long as everybody understands that it's really for practice. I'm not saying that the're totally useless. Tournaments are a pain to me, though. Bottom line, do I think that they're vital and that you're doing your team a disservice if you don't do 7 on 7s? No.
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Post by senatorblutarsky on Jul 30, 2006 18:35:40 GMT -6
DJ,
I’m guessing that in the conflict, you are against doing 7 on 7 and other guys on staff are for it…. So I’m just playing devil’s advocate here. I like it and we do it… but we have 4 7 on 7 “games” against 2 teams where it is in much more of a practice format than a game format. I like it- in moderation.
IT takes away time we use to teach our offense. I don’t see this as a valid argument… at least here (Nebraska). We are limited to 21 camp days (we can condition and weight train, but only 21 days of “practice”). We do 7 on 7 in addition to those days… which is legal according to our state. If we could practice all summer… yes, I’d rather run trap, toss, Iso than boot pass. But if we have used up our "run time", and still have some time we can have "pass time", we do it. If you have any passing in your offense, and you run your passing plays in 7 on 7, then you are working on a component of your offense.
We throw the ball effectively and defend it effectively? WHY change? For me, if we are 14-0 every year, then I would agree. If not, any time we can work on our stuff, we should.
It takes the aggression out of our secondary. I’ll give you that point. I see that as a negative to 7 on 7 too.
It is NOT a team activity. Team no… position/unit yes. LBs are together, DBs are together, etc. We’ve done this in conjunction with lineman strongman competitions too.
It does not contribute to the fundamentals of what we do 90%+ of the time. True. But we punted 9 times last year in 11 games (so 1% of our plays are a punt)...and we work the heck out of punt because when we do it, we NEED it to be good. I look at passing the same.
It increases our skill position players risk of getting injured, since they are playing someone who could care less. True, though I'm not sure about the "could care less" part.
Overall, like anything, there are good reasons to and good reasons not to.
Your original question was “what do other running teams do”. We do 7 on 7. But, like Phantom mentioned… I wouldn’t say it is vital to our success… though personally I feel a little better about our ability to throw (and catch) if we have done a little bit of it over the summer.
By the way, I'm not trying to take a strong stand for 7 on 7... just trying to give you some counters to your arguments as "food for thought", because I'm guessing that is what your opponents in the disagreement are saying. And really, the injury issue alone might be good enough reason to not do it.
Good luck resolving the conflict.
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Post by blb on Jul 30, 2006 19:05:36 GMT -6
We are a Veer team and average 12-16 passes a game.
I'm not crazy about 7-on-7s because:
1. The basis of our passing game is play-action, which is useless in 7-on-7. 2. If you want to "win", you almost have to do stuff you won't do during the season. 3. I don't want to show future opponents my personnel, patterns, or coverages. 4. If a kid doesn't show up because of baseball or whatever, I get mad at them.
We do five days' worth of them in two summer camps, though, because:
1. QBs need to get work on reads and throw against guys trying to "pick" them. 2. Receivers need to run routes-catch balls with bodies whizzing around. 3. Allows me to get LBers' pass coverages taught, which I always neglect in season. 4. I can get a look at new patterns I'm thinking of implementing. 5. At camps kids want to run plays and I want to call them, not do all drill work.
We do not do them competitively, though. It is like a practice situation.
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Post by djwesp on Jul 30, 2006 19:47:04 GMT -6
Senator.
The staff is split 50/50 (hc told us he wanted us to decide as a group)
I am by far the most "on the fence" person, so i'll probably be the deciding factor.
My argument is that we are effective at defending and executing the points that 7 on 7 emphasizes. If you have a good thing, and it is effective, why change it?
Our losses previously have not been because of passing or lack of defending it. Our 2 losses last year came at the hands of a trick play, and a field goal as time expired.
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Post by redfish on Jul 30, 2006 20:01:57 GMT -6
IT takes away time we use to teach our offense.
We throw the ball effectively and defend it effectively? WHY change?
It takes the aggression out of our secondary.
It is NOT a team activity.
It does not contribute to the fundamentals of what we do 90%+ of the time.
It increases our skill position players risk of getting injured, since they are playing someone who could care less.[/quote][/color] I apologize if my post implied that y'all don't work in the summer. Our state rules prohibit position specific practice outside of 7's. From your post above, it sounds to me like you don't think you need to work on the passing game during the summer, so maybe you shouldn't.
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Post by djwesp on Jul 30, 2006 20:31:59 GMT -6
I apologize if my post implied that y'all don't work in the summer. Our state rules prohibit position specific practice outside of 7's. From your post above, it sounds to me like you don't think you need to work on the passing game during the summer, so maybe you shouldn't. We don't have drills in pads or anything like that if that is what you mean. We have positions specific workouts, classroom study, and film study.
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