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Post by tog on Jun 18, 2006 17:59:26 GMT -6
W. Edwards Deming came up with "Total Quality Management" and the Japanese listened to him, but the US didn't. about cars, how can we apply some of this stuff to coaching football/molding young men?
Here are his "14 points" 1. Constancy of purpose 2. The new philosophy 3. Cease dependence on mass inspection 4. End lowest tender contracts 5. Improve every process 6. Institute training on the job 7. Institute leadership 8. Drive out fear 9. Break down barriers 10. Eliminate exhortations 11. Eliminate arbitrary numerical targets 12. Permit pride of workmanship 13. Encourage education 14. Top management commitment and action
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 18, 2006 18:13:21 GMT -6
Well, with regards to #11: I think a lot of teams/coaches go wrong by having the sticker rewards and goal systems. By 9th grade the kids are old enough to not have to play "games within the game".
Concentrate on PROCESS not product. Concentrate on great blocking, not 100 yard rushers. Concentrate on execution, not rewarding tackle charts.
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smd
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Post by smd on Jun 18, 2006 20:09:15 GMT -6
5085, does that include awards for improvement in the weight room? ie... t-shirts, award boards, pictures in paper, etc. what about patches for their letter jackets, or do you believe in letter jackets? under the right context, helmet stickers for team accomplishments and individual performance can be used as positive reinforcement.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 18, 2006 23:16:42 GMT -6
#11 suggests eliminating arbitrary numerical targets. In football context, this would be the 100 yards rushing, 100 yards receiving, 150 yards passing etc.
Those are the awards/goals I am discussing.
YOu are mentioning personal improvement, and POST PRODUCT goal when you discuss the weight room and letter jackets.
I am discussing the setting of arbitrary ingame goals. I am discussin rewarding individual perforomances in the TEAM setting. I have seen way to many instances of these things overshadowing the TEAM effort. "We may have lost/played poorly etc, but I got my stickers. On the D side of the ball, if you give stickers for LB's who make tackles, how do you reward the DT's who eat up blockers? What if you build your SYSTEM to enhance indivduals talents for the betterment of the team? So, yes, you design the entire O or D so that ONE persons actions best challenge the opposition. Does that person get more stickers???
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smd
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Posts: 211
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Post by smd on Jun 19, 2006 6:02:38 GMT -6
so you would allow t-shirts for weight room performance (rewarding individual performance in the team setting). "We may have lost/played poorly etc, but I go my t-shirt and name on the wall". where is the difference? if rewarding individual performance is such a bad thing, then why use it in other instances within the program? "On the D side of the ball, if you give stickers for LB's who make tackles, how do yo reward the DT's who eat up blockers?" if that is a direct question for me to answer: we reward only if we win first and for most. if we lose then no dice. here is an overview of our award system... win shutout goal line stand individual (1 for every five points earned based on post game evaluation by position coach) we give points based on positive plays and then take points away from them based on negative plays.
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Post by brophy on Jun 19, 2006 11:38:24 GMT -6
I'm with 5058 on this one....I could never justify the stickers, no matter how hard I tried, it came back to the same argument.
Those are interesting points of emphasis, but many so vague and obtuse, i wouldn't know where to begin to apply it.
14 points....and here I thought this thread was about how to score two touchdowns.
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Post by sls on Jun 19, 2006 12:24:08 GMT -6
I have come full circle on the helmet sticker issue. I took over a program that was horrible in 04 and had absolutly no pride associated with it at all. I used helmet stickers for the first time last year. I gave them for offseason items, weight room goals, off season attendence and Honor roll. It really got the kids excited about football. I carried it over to our game goals and the kids really really liked it. The whole thing got kids excited about football.
I had played and coached in programs that had a lot of pride and had always been against them, but they helped in my present situation. I $0.05 investment in a sticker gets a kid a little bit more excited about the game/program/team. IMO, It is worth it.
I can see the difference between jacket patches and helmet stickers, but I feel that weight room t's and helmet stickers are the same.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 19, 2006 16:46:31 GMT -6
Weight room performance is an individual reward, in an INDIVIDUAL setting. Whatever Joey squats has no bearing on how much my squat improves during the offseason. I would be PRO weight room shirts for improvement and such. Now, I might not be a big fan of the "1,000 lb club" shirts, since my 135lb kids aren't as likely to get one as my 235 lb kids. Not that i personally am a big fan of "everyone gets rewards" but I am trying to avoid ANY division on the team.
I am a proponent of academic rewards, and I like the offseason reward ideas as well. I just think that the "games within the game" are counter productive.
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smd
Sophomore Member
Posts: 211
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Post by smd on Jun 19, 2006 17:05:09 GMT -6
we treat everything (as much as possible) as a team setting. field, weight room, classroom, etc. your actions no matter where you are at effect the team. so to us the weightroom is a team setting. character, confidence, teamwork and discipline are developed in the weight room, just like it is developed on the game / practice field. we try to find ways to promote as much positive behavior as we can. we try to eliminate as much trouble (divison and such) as we can through trial and error within our program. but hey, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. we can agree to disagree.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 19, 2006 19:32:32 GMT -6
regardless as to how you treat it, Nobody is going to cause Johnny to squat 650 lbs but Johnny. Now, it takes 10 other people to cause Johnny to rush for over 150 yards in a game, or score a rushing touchdown.
So, weight room rewards, FINE... IMO. Academic rewards FINE. Attendance awards FINE. arbitrary ingame goals or acheivements, counter productive. Again, jsut my opinion. But if it works for your guys, go for it.
The point of the 14 points however, is that what worked for Ford and General Motors 40 years ago CAN'T beat the Japanese today.
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Post by bigdaddyd on Jun 19, 2006 19:38:44 GMT -6
14 points....and here I thought this thread was about how to score two touchdowns. lol!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by sls on Jun 19, 2006 20:25:51 GMT -6
regardless as to how you treat it, Nobody is going to cause Johnny to squat 650 lbs but Johnny. Now, it takes 10 other people to cause Johnny to rush for over 150 yards in a game, or score a rushing touchdown. Good point, didn't think of it like that.
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Post by tog on Jun 19, 2006 21:13:49 GMT -6
regardless as to how you treat it, Nobody is going to cause Johnny to squat 650 lbs but Johnny. Now, it takes 10 other people to cause Johnny to rush for over 150 yards in a game, or score a rushing touchdown. Good point, didn't think of it like that. johnny had spotters johnny had coaches that knew how to get him there johnny had teamates that pushed him to work harder than he ever thought before
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smd
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Posts: 211
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Post by smd on Jun 19, 2006 21:16:28 GMT -6
why do we have athletic pe for our football teams? why do coaches want their kids lifting and exercising together during the summer instead of on their own? TEAM concept. isn't that what you are harping on? the only thing that i disagree with is the fact that little johnny is only strong because he wants to be. because one of the greatest rewards in coaching is to watch as teammates come together to push themselves in the weight room not for individual accomplishments but for each other. so yeah, there are times when johnny squats 650 lbs. because he doesn't want to let his teammates down. remember in small town high schools these kids grow up with each other that is the tie that binds. in college, those kids come from different places and have different goals in mind. nevertheless, we as coaches should demand / reward teamwork everywhere. if not, then what are we teaching?
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 19, 2006 23:12:30 GMT -6
Tog-- Johnny had the weight manufactures make the weights. Maybe they should get stickers. Johnny had architects design the weight room in which he lifted. Guess they need stickers too. Johnny had contractors who built the weight room that those architects designed. More stickers. Don't forget the subcontractors too.. lets get a whole sheet.
Johnny had to get to the weight room. Guess we better fire off some stickers to the car manufacturers. Johnny needed fuel for the auto he used to get there. Better get some stickers out to Exxon Mobil.
Should I continue along the tract that you started? I am pretty sure I can get to Kevin Bacon in six steps.
Bottom line and I will drop it after this. Despite the REASONS behind any weight room achievement, it is still a SOLITARY ACHIEVEMENT. It was NOT a GROUP effort to perform the lift. It IS a GROUP effort to attain ANY acheivements on the playing field.
The post was asking how one could apply Demings points from "Out of Crisis" to football. Just as the US automakers ignored the seedlings of TQM, anyone is free to choose to ignore my adaptations to football. I would think that 99% of the coaches would disagree with #10, since football coaching is laden with slogans.
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Post by tog on Jun 20, 2006 7:24:54 GMT -6
lol
I think it is ironic that #10 is even on the list of exhortations/maxims
I don't necessarily agree or disagree with the list, I just wanted to see what others thought about applying some of these things to football.
Stickers are cheap, and the kids like em. Therefore, I give them out
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Post by los on Jun 20, 2006 14:48:55 GMT -6
Good post Tog! I can see several of these points that crossover from business to coaching football. #1. Constancy of purpose- Have the same goals, rules, expectations for your team every season, so its clear to everyone what we want to accomplish. #5. Improve every process- Try to make some improvement in every aspect of coaching, equipment,facilities or whatever every season(however small an improvement) it will add up! #6 and #13 are about the same to me. Institute on the job training and encourage education- Like d-50 said in an earlier post, make a big deal out of guys who do well academically(coaches and players) or who learn to play/coach several positions, stuff like that. To me by encouraging and rewarding employees/players for the previous two points you are motivating them to do the next two #7 and #12- Institute leadership and pride in workmanship. I like to follow someone who leads by example. If they work hard in practice, take pride in performing every exercise or drill to the best of their ability and always strive to improve on that, its contagious! What makes you go that extra mile when you're tired or hurt? What makes you wanna make a big play when its needed? You know your team leaders are busting their butts every play, and trying to improve! The rest of the guys don't wanna let them down! And finally #11. Eliminate arbitrary numerical targets- This would be like going into a season with unrealistic expectations based on God knows what! lol! I've seen some HC's look over the schedule before ever playing a game and already be trying to figure out wins and losses, and some actually relay these expectations to their teams. For example, "We should be 4-0 after these games cause they can't stop our new spread offense" or "we beat these guys 21-0 last season and have all our starters returning so should beat them even worse this year!" This is the kind of thing large corporations do with their business projections at times without taking into account the many variables that may affect their sales, such as rising gas prices, tax increases, higher cost of basic neccessitys for most people, stuff like that! Its an unrealistic numbers game that promotes poor workmanship, hurried jobs, cut corners and ultimately unsatisfactory service or substandard products. We've all bought cars or whatever that had numerous problems due to this kind of attitude. Look at each year of business or football season as a new beginning and while trying to improve on the previous year, we should realize it has to stand on its own merits without these artificial expectations. Whew!! That was a novel, sorry about that! LOL
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Post by coachdawhip on Jun 22, 2006 11:00:27 GMT -6
los, that was right on
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