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Post by jgordon1 on Jun 2, 2016 11:24:42 GMT -6
It seems everything I read is talking about doing everything fast. I like to teach slow and practice with a purpose not just to practice plays.
#1 we don't have the luxury of 45 minute meetings everyday and I don't have time to comment on 100+ plays on practice film.
#2 Unless you are 2 platoon, I really don't see the advantage of not huddling and playing fast. We get to see your formation we line up the same way every time. I can call my plays just as fast as you can call them
Thoughts
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Post by carookie on Jun 2, 2016 14:46:10 GMT -6
I agree with what you are writing, I think you teach very slowly and then progressively build up to speed. I think far too many just assume running lots of plays is good practice As to your specific points:
#1) Our head coach makes time for this "luxury" it really isn't all that beneficial. You spend too much time pointing things on film kids zone out real quick. Furthermore, while it is advantageous to utilize film to point out problems, it is better to actually physically fix them on the field. I can show a kid poor technique on film and explain him how to do it correctly; but the best place to actually fix it is the practice field where I can have him perform the technique. Football is played through actions not words, our coaching should be based on having player perform actions correctly.
#2) I think the advantage comes from forcing defenses to line up to your offense, show their hand, and then as an OC adjust pre-snap based on what they show you. Moreover, there are plenty of defensive coaches out there who still signal in the defense to the MLB and have him call the defense from a huddle. You can screw up their lines of communication by not huddling. You also can control the defense's ability to substitute through this method. So I do see a benefit to the 'Not huddling' portion of this point.
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Post by pitt1980 on Jun 8, 2016 8:15:58 GMT -6
Man, this is a big topic
I think its a happy medium situation
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Practice -
running really fast lets you get tons of reps, I think there is value in just getting volume of reps, that said doing it wrong a ton of times, seems like you're wasting those reps (I've been places where its seems like there'd be a net benefit being a little less dogmatic in practicing fast)
I've also been places where the coaches are a crutch for the players figuring it out on there own, where the coaches spend too much time spelling out between plays what everyone is supposed to do, that has its place, but at some point, you need to spend time letting the players experience lines of communication the way they'll be in game action
(there was a great scene about this in last years Hard Knocks where coach O'Brien was telling his coaches 'let's see what these guys know', which is sort of different due to the level they're at, but I think that's still useful for all levels, its not about what the coaches know, its about what the players know)
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luxury of 45 minute meetings -
I've seen that go both ways too, a little bit of film is an amazing tool, you can slow it down and show people things that they can't see in real time
but the 45 minute meetings where the coach goes over every play, and its mostly the coach up there droning on, there's a limit beyond which point you're introducing unhelpful complexity
some editing goes a long ways, my hunch is that 4 or 5 ideas is about what most guys can take away from a meeting, and players not going to translate a page full of notes into action on the field
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The Wooden quote - Be Quick - But Don't Hurry seems appropriate |
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Post by hunhdisciple on Jun 8, 2016 11:07:54 GMT -6
I'll personally teach slow, simply based on the fact that I'd much rather them get it and build on their own speed. We go at an appropriate tempo for practicing and getting it on the level we want.
In game, we've gone as fast as we can. I would counter and say that a lot of defensive guys actually can't get the calls they want in, in. Even if you aren't 2 platoon, I think it helps to wear down a team as long as your are in good shape. My favorite moments is when you've been biting off 4+ down the field, and they can't get guys in fast enough, so you can just make them take it. It's rewarding, to me.
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Post by lions23 on Jun 8, 2016 22:05:55 GMT -6
I coach in a hurry up system and that means we are fast tempo on offense defense and special teams. We run from meeting to locker room to the field. We believe in tempo.
45 minute meetings for HS kids is insane. But if you can't take 15 minutes to draw things up or show the film that is insane too.
I subscribe to a 10-2-2 method in the classroom and in football methods. I talk for 10 minutes. Kids ask questions and review with each other for 2. They have to summarize what we talked about for 2.
We jog through during installation. We plan install very intentionally. We put in one formation at a time and one concept at a time. First day of summer ball we put in one formation with one run and one pass pro. We added quick game and wr screen attached to run.
Defense thus puts in one run fit and one coverage.
We add one formation and one more concept on day 2 and day 3.
So we show and tell for 15 before practice. We jog through in our team take off. By team time we are full speed tempo on the first day. We made 2 blocking scheme calls (1 run and 1 pro). WRs ran screens and quick game. We went real fast.
Coaches fly around repeating technique fixes and drill names to associate skill with drill.
Huddling and reviewing every play can get just as obnoxious as the guys who go fast just to go fast. However the kids have to do the work on Fridays and its not what we know it's what the kids know and what they can do. You have to give them as many opportunities to do as possible. You don't get better without extreme focus on an extreme number of reps. Let the kids work.
Coaches need to express essays and paragraphs in a sentence or less on the field. If you are talking more than that you are inefficient.
It's not teaching slow or fast its teaching efficiently and effectively.
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Post by drmackey on Jun 8, 2016 23:41:54 GMT -6
I am the offensive coordinator at a 2Ad2 in Texas. We script 8 plays a 5 minute period for each group and team session. Example inside run 3 periods, 24 plays. One period each group, ones twos and JV. Keep in mind I'll usually only carry 8 varsity linemen so some of them don't get a break. By mid season we cut reps in half for twos and JV also drop 5 minutes.
When the time is up we move on. O-line stays to correct any blocking mistakes. QB and Rb move on to 7on7. Following the same pattern. 3 periods 24 plays. That's a normal Monday. Tuesday 7on7 replaced by team pass, for blitz purposes. Wednesday its team run focus is on outside runs, then team pass.
No coaching furing group sessions, it is all taught prior to the group session and from film.
Everything is videoed and put on hudl. The first half of the season we will spend the athletic period watching the practice film together. After that we note the film and expect them to watch it on their own.
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Post by drmackey on Jun 8, 2016 23:46:18 GMT -6
Everything is scripted on the weekends, every play, every defense, every blitz. We wristband the defense to move faster, using our own defensive terminology. Since we run almost every coverage known to man there isn't much we can't get a a good look at.
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Post by lions23 on Jun 9, 2016 10:50:14 GMT -6
The other thing about playing fast is that we are trying to dictate the pace of the game. We are trying to add possessions. Thinking is more possessions is going to lead to more scores.
When we are trying to go fast that also has to be factored into what we emphasize on defense. We really emphasize turnovers because what we are really trying to do is create as many possessions as possible.
Do we get way more reps at practice than others. Yes I believe we do. Do we get teams to play more base on d or to show their hands sooner? Most of the time. Those are added benefits. The tempo is about adding possessions and lengthening the game.
We have been in a slow down, heavy, grind it out it area for a long time. We were losing games we felt just based on sometimes who got the ball first which usually was the team with the ball last and one more possession. Losing games 21-14 or 24-21. We had players. We liked our scheme. We felt like we just weren't getting to the end zone enough.
There is a limited amount of ways to do that. We sped up focused on turnovers and big playmaking on STs and D.
The other thing about dictating pace is that it is hard to duplicate and prepare for in practice. We will get opposition puking in the first quarter and we usually explode in the second when they are really worn down.
In terms of number of plays we prepare for 6 quarter games and often play in at least 5 quarter games. Can your team keep up the pace and execute with that many plays in a game?
We don't have to practice certain situations like 2 minute drill, down 2 scores late, or 4 minute drill. We live there.
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Post by carookie on Jun 9, 2016 11:44:45 GMT -6
We are trying to add possessions. Thinking is more possessions is going to lead to more scores. . I find this portion to be extremely interesting, and I hope this doesnt pirate the thread; but would you do the same thing if you felt you were the inferior team? The more possessions, the greater sample size, the higher the likelihood that the better team will win. Parcells saw this in SB 25 and limited possessions against a team that he knew was probably better. By limiting possessions (sample size) you increase the likelihood of being able to pull off an upset (we tend to mean regress in the long run, but in limited possession game you can place greater importance on a few possessions. Which if you roll the dice right can work out in your favor) Based off the posts of yours I've read you seem to be a good coach in a quality program; but even the best of us sometimes we run into superior talent that is well coached. If you run into such a situation would you consider trying to limit possessions to help your odds? |
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Post by 44dlcoach on Jun 9, 2016 11:56:22 GMT -6
We are trying to add possessions. Thinking is more possessions is going to lead to more scores. . I find this portion to be extremely interesting, and I hope this doesnt pirate the thread; but would you do the same thing if you felt you were the inferior team? The more possessions, the greater sample size, the higher the likelihood that the better team will win. Parcells saw this in SB 25 and limited possessions against a team that he knew was probably better. By limiting possessions (sample size) you increase the likelihood of being able to pull off an upset (we tend to mean regress in the long run, but in limited possession game you can place greater importance on a few possessions. Which if you roll the dice right can work out in your favor) Based off the posts of yours I've read you seem to be a good coach in a quality program; but even the best of us sometimes we run into superior talent that is well coached. If you run into such a situation would you consider trying to limit possessions to help your odds? We are an up tempo offense, but if we have a really successful season we play a team in the playoffs that has won 7 straight state titles and a couple of "mythical national titles". When we played them in the past we tried to stick to our identity and ended up on the wrong side of some 50 point beat downs. Now when we see them we try to bleed as much clock as possible and shorten the game. It has helped us stay in the game longer and "only" end up catching a 35 point beat down. If we can just get those basketball rules with no plans clock we'll be in great shape! |
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Post by carookie on Jun 9, 2016 12:08:02 GMT -6
I find this portion to be extremely interesting, and I hope this doesnt pirate the thread; but would you do the same thing if you felt you were the inferior team? The more possessions, the greater sample size, the higher the likelihood that the better team will win. Parcells saw this in SB 25 and limited possessions against a team that he knew was probably better. By limiting possessions (sample size) you increase the likelihood of being able to pull off an upset (we tend to mean regress in the long run, but in limited possession game you can place greater importance on a few possessions. Which if you roll the dice right can work out in your favor) Based off the posts of yours I've read you seem to be a good coach in a quality program; but even the best of us sometimes we run into superior talent that is well coached. If you run into such a situation would you consider trying to limit possessions to help your odds? We are an up tempo offense, but if we have a really successful season we play a team in the playoffs that has won 7 straight state titles and a couple of "mythical national titles". When we played them in the past we tried to stick to our identity and ended up on the wrong side of some 50 point beat downs. Now when we see them we try to bleed as much clock as possible and shorten the game. It has helped us stay in the game longer and "only" end up catching a 35 point beat down. If we can just get those basketball rules with no plans clock we'll be in great shape! And thats somewhat my line of thinking (although 35 pt loss as opposed to 50 may be a bit much in either case). If there were a team who would usually be be 20 points better than us in a game with 16 total possessions then theyd only be 13 points better in a game with 10 possessions. That may seem like a lot but all it really is, is getting a good bounce and flipping one of their scores into ours (say a pick six). |
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Post by s73 on Jun 9, 2016 12:50:52 GMT -6
It seems everything I read is talking about doing everything fast. I like to teach slow and practice with a purpose not just to practice plays. #1 we don't have the luxury of 45 minute meetings everyday and I don't have time to comment on 100+ plays on practice film. #2 Unless you are 2 platoon, I really don't see the advantage of not huddling and playing fast. We get to see your formation we line up the same way every time. I can call my plays just as fast as you can call them Thoughts TOTALLY agree with this. More importantly IMO, practice slowly to play CORRECTLY! If you want your kids to play fast & get their assignments right, then you have to develop confidence in them, period. The only way to do that is to intro stuff at a pace they can handle & absorb. If you cram too much at them they will be confused and play slowly & poorly. It's no different then teaching the weight room. You intro and rep technique slowly & deliberately before you turn them loose to challenge themselves with weight. JMO. |
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Post by lions23 on Jun 9, 2016 13:11:46 GMT -6
We are trying to add possessions. Thinking is more possessions is going to lead to more scores. . I find this portion to be extremely interesting, and I hope this doesnt pirate the thread; but would you do the same thing if you felt you were the inferior team? The more possessions, the greater sample size, the higher the likelihood that the better team will win. Parcells saw this in SB 25 and limited possessions against a team that he knew was probably better. By limiting possessions (sample size) you increase the likelihood of being able to pull off an upset (we tend to mean regress in the long run, but in limited possession game you can place greater importance on a few possessions. Which if you roll the dice right can work out in your favor) Based off the posts of yours I've read you seem to be a good coach in a quality program; but even the best of us sometimes we run into superior talent that is well coached. If you run into such a situation would you consider trying to limit possessions to help your odds? It's a good question and we have discussed it it we mostly keep to our identity. I just went back at our schedule from the past 3 seasons. Each year and team is slightly different. 3 years ago we beat the number 2 team in the state with the tempo as a clear factor. They couldn't keep up and lost by a score to the eventual semifinalist in a game of big plays. They made 1 more but the tempo and aggressiveness of our game calling again was a clear factor to give us a shot we were winning in the early 4th. We were I'd go as far as saying bad up front. We were small but we were slow too and young. Both were much bigger and better up front. So we were 500. 2 years ago we won 2 playoff games against state powerhouses that could have gone either way. In both of those games we ran our 4 minute package to success late. We slow down for us which is a lot of shifting and motion but get on the line as fast as possible so the kids operate in their mind at the same tempo. We had defensive scores which we practice as well as anyone that helped too. We had to mount 4th quarter comebacks which is a situation I say we live in and it paid off. Our 2 losses came from the eventual state champ and a semi finalist. We got thumped. The extra possessions gave us a chance to score more than anyone else did against them but they scored as much as they always did to put up a 60 spot. So we were 500. 1 of those teams I don't think we win 1 of 100 chances. So if you exclude that we were plus. Last year we were 2-1 in regular season against equal to greater opponents. We got hammered in the quarters by eventual runner up. We were decimated by injuries in that game so I'm not sure how we match up healthy. They were very good up front. 4 BCS kids. You could say we were 500 or we were in the positive if that doesn't count bc of injuries. I feel pretty good about being 500 against teams that are equal to clearly more talented in 3 years. I hadn't really looked at the numbers until your question so thank you. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2016 10:48:30 GMT -6
Very valid points by @jgordon. Where I'm at now they platoon, so there are meetings. They meet at lunchtime and basically discuss the finer points of what happened in yesterday's practice. Some coaches watch film, others simply go over their notes while they eat lunch together. The biggest item discussed at these meetings are what happened yesterday and what we are focusing on today. These meetings last roughly a half hour and then they are done. Later, before practice, they watch film with their position coaches in a group setting. The coaches all have notes and have graded the film from the day before. The session lasts 30 minutes on the nose and then the players are out the door to practice. In the film rooms there are two videos going on, with the coordinators giving generalized comments and the assistants chiming in their info. to their subgroups. The kids are to be taking notes the entire time, to which they do very well. At the end of the week these are all reviewed and gone back over to assure little to no mistakes. This is one thing I will say, while it seems like a lot of meeting time, on the field, there is very little discussion about what's going on in a drill. It's a quick correction, or "good job" and back to the end of the line. Things move very rapidly. We are not no huddle, but the bulk of the coaching is done in the meetings. This makes practice move pretty rapidly.
Now, I've been no huddle, and up tempo, and IMO the benefits are tremendous. Where I think most people miss the boat with this, is shifting. When I ran UBSW, we were exclusively no huddle with 3 tempos, normal, "fat" (end of game and we are winning) and 911 (emergency we need to move FAST). We would always align in our base formation (unbalanced SW right) and then shift into whatever formation we wanted to from there. This is where you gained the advantage of going fast. What it also did for us was get our defense used to playing fast.
To add to the no huddle debate, I think the best example of this ideology having an effect on a team is with the Alabama Crimson Tide. I think the addition of Lane Kiffin, and being more no huddle and up tempo has allowed Saban's defense to play faster. Don't get me wrong, Kirby Smart and Co. have certainly adapted, but it helps when you can go against a scout offense that knows how to play fast. Mimicking an opponent's offense is tough enough, add into that equation no huddle up tempo and it becomes tough to simulate in practice. If your offense is no huddle, you can get a better look at this, even if you aren't 2 platoon.
More on the no huddle as well. When we moved to it fully in 2012, our scoring more than doubled the following season, and this was after only losing about 10 kids on a 35 man roster. One place we really took advantage of the up tempo was at the end of a half. We stole more points going into the second 1/2, than I've ever been a part of b/c our kids were so good at the "2 minute" drill. Teams just couldn't keep up with us. Now, don't get me wrong, 2012 was still on the "cusp" of the new age of tempo, and I'm sure defenses are doing just what they do best and getting better at matching tempo, but if they are having a tough time mimicking it in practice, they are going to have a tough time w/it on the field. Where I'm currently at now, it takes us 2 offensive huddles to get the tempo thing somewhat close to a "live game" feeling. We don't no huddle on offense where I'm at now, except in 2 min. situations. Tempo is not something our offense preaches. This, IMO makes it tougher on our defense to get a "live view" on what we see in basically 80% of our games.
Great post J, great post!
Duece
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