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Post by coachwoodall on May 31, 2016 8:09:01 GMT -6
The HC told us in a meeting last week that he is considering dropping/combining one of our subvarsity teams this coming year. Either we are going to combine the JV/Varsity group and keep the freshman team, or drop the the freshman team and make it all JV.
We have about 1750 in the high school. We compete in the largest classification in the state (5A) but our numbers put us in the lower 1/3 of that classification. Last season, the High School League dropped our 8 quarter rule (kids could dress for 8 quarters a week) and several teams in our situation dropped one of their subvarsity teams last year. By losing the 8 quarter kids, we don't have the luxury of getting those kids reps on JV, but still have them around as back ups and special teamers.
Our overall numbers were pretty decent for our competition, but in terms of talent there is drop off from those contributing and those that are on the team. We 2 platoon. We can put bodies out on all 3 teams, but how we stack up versus our opponents, there will be a disparity. Take for example our biggest rival; they are almost twice as large as we are.
Here' my thing, I know that we have to do what works best for us and the logistics that we have to do within the program; but losing a team means that somebody is going to get lost in the mix.
-If we dump the freshman team, I think we'll lose some 9th graders because some will not want to compete versus 11th graders.
-If we dump the JV team, then those underclassmen might not look forward to sitting on the bench for a couple of season and get very little playing time.
Any ideas?
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Post by coachpech on May 31, 2016 8:23:21 GMT -6
The school I'm currently at now didn't have a freshmen team last year, we strictly had JV and Varsity. You are correct though that a lot of the 9th graders get discouraged when they know they're stuck playing against 11th/12th graders all year. The AD added the fresh team back for this upcoming season and they'll play the curtain raiser before our varsity games. JV still plays on Monday nights. We have a very small school though our numbers for this upcoming season are below. Best of luck!
Seniors 12
Juniors 15
Sophomores 17
Freshmen 21
TOTAL 65
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Post by blb on May 31, 2016 8:24:30 GMT -6
Why would 9th graders have to compete against 11th graders? If numbers are a concern, wouldn't all of the latter be on Varsity?
You're right, if you drop a team, you're going to lose some kids, and that makes it tough to be consistently successful.
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Post by coachwoodall on May 31, 2016 8:37:33 GMT -6
Why would 9th graders have to compete against 11th graders? If numbers are a concern, wouldn't all of the latter be on Varsity? You're right, if you drop a team, you're going to lose some kids, and that makes it tough to be consistently successful. In theory, you're right. However, there will be some 11th graders that can't/won't help the varsity and even though they might not be much competition, they still will have that 11 beside their name and that is all the freshman will/might see. The main thing that will scare off the freshman is having to play AGAINST other school's juniors If a kid can play, then he'll be out there. If a kid in the 9th/10th grade will be a contributor then he'll be on varsity. Still, I'm wondering how it will affect the over all numbers. |
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Post by blb on May 31, 2016 8:45:46 GMT -6
I coached in a league or two where Juniors could not play on JVs in name of "safety and competition."
If all of your schools are in similar boats may take a policy adoption or gentlemen's agreement among the HCs.
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Post by tabs52 on May 31, 2016 9:39:20 GMT -6
We were in a similar situation where our school forced us to get rid of our jr. high program. This program was for students 7-9 grade. It has been a detriment to our program, 9th graders are not ready to compete against varsity guys, and are not ready for the season long grind they will have to go through. Their season typically would be about 8 weeks, this past year it was 12 weeks. I would not get rid of the freshman team, I feel that is too important.
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Post by blb on May 31, 2016 10:31:18 GMT -6
To elaborate, here's how I felt about playing Juniors "down" (on JVs):
The only two occasions I did it was when a kid came out for the first time as a Junior, needed the experience, and we couldn't take the time to catch him up; or, the Junior-to-be didn't show up all Off-Season and thus didn't deserve being on the Varsity.
If a kid is going to be in the program for the third year (11th grade) and can't contribute to the Varsity other than on Scout teams, I'm not going to put him on JVs to take PT away from a kid who hopefully will be able to in a year.
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Post by Chris Clement on May 31, 2016 10:37:55 GMT -6
Could you practice as just V/JV and then schedule some one-off "friendlies" for the niners and weaker 10s?
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Post by fballcoachg on May 31, 2016 11:28:09 GMT -6
What is the 8 quarter rule? Are they saying kids can only play in 4 quarters now?
If you combined JV/9th graders would the other coaches you play be agreeable to a modified, 6 quarter game where your JVs play 3-4 quarters and your freshman play the remainder? Keep it at 4 and increase the quarter length? Essentially just brainstorming ways to get around the predicament...or if you can't do that, have a gentlemans agreement that there will be at least one quarter of strictly freshman?
if I had to pick a poison I'm not sure which way id go, if we join the JV/9th we'd dedicate a portion of the game strictly to 9th graders or only let our 9/10th graders play. if we went with a dedicated 9th grade team we'd have to do something to keep the full on JV kids involved, maybe have intrasquad scrimmages throughout the year. The attrition rate is probably the highest with 9th and 10th graders so it's a difficult call I hope I'm not needing to make soon.
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Post by coachwoodall on May 31, 2016 11:29:56 GMT -6
What is the 8 quarter rule? Are they saying kids can only play in 4 quarters now? If you combined JV/9th graders would the other coaches you play be agreeable to a modified, 6 quarter game where your JVs play 3-4 quarters and your freshman play the remainder? Keep it at 4 and increase the quarter length? Essentially just brainstorming ways to get around the predicament...or if you can't do that, have a gentlemans agreement that there will be at least one quarter of strictly freshman? A kid dress for a game, that's 4 quarters regardless of whether or not he plays. |
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Post by fballcoachg on May 31, 2016 11:38:08 GMT -6
What is the 8 quarter rule? Are they saying kids can only play in 4 quarters now? If you combined JV/9th graders would the other coaches you play be agreeable to a modified, 6 quarter game where your JVs play 3-4 quarters and your freshman play the remainder? Keep it at 4 and increase the quarter length? Essentially just brainstorming ways to get around the predicament...or if you can't do that, have a gentlemans agreement that there will be at least one quarter of strictly freshman? A kid dress for a game, that's 4 quarters regardless of whether or not he plays. Ok, yeah, makes it extremely tough. I'm just running through a scenario of your top QB backup being a younger kid, dont want to burn his weekly allotment just standing on the sidelines but can really impact the game if you have no one else and the starter gets hurt. Are the teams you play likely to agree to one format? For instance agree to play just 9/10th graders on JV? |
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Post by adawg2302 on May 31, 2016 12:06:37 GMT -6
I would want to go Freshman team and Varsity team in your situation. You get an opportunity to "hook" the freshman on football right away, as opposed to never getting that chance if you have a JV team (freshman come out, never play, quit). At least they would get a taste of playing time right away. Just a thought.
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Post by coachwoodall on May 31, 2016 12:16:55 GMT -6
A kid dress for a game, that's 4 quarters regardless of whether or not he plays. Ok, yeah, makes it extremely tough. I'm just running through a scenario of your top QB backup being a younger kid, dont want to burn his weekly allotment just standing on the sidelines but can really impact the game if you have no one else and the starter gets hurt. Are the teams you play likely to agree to one format? For instance agree to play just 9/10th graders on JV? That's the thing, that young QB (or whatever position) could get the game reps on Thursday and still be there in the emergency. We probably could/will have that agreement somewhere along the way. Part of this was the concussion hysteria. The other was that some didn't follow the gentleman's agreement that you don't play Friday night starters on Thursday. |
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Post by coachwoodall on May 31, 2016 12:19:12 GMT -6
I would want to go Freshman team and Varsity team in your situation. You get an opportunity to "hook" the freshman on football right away, as opposed to never getting that chance if you have a JV team (freshman come out, never play, quit). At least they would get a taste of playing time right away. Just a thought. That's kind of what I thought. Plus as kids come through little league into middle school, they've been with like aged kids. Right now we have a 7th grade middle school team, a 8th grade team, a 9th grade team, then JV/varsity. |
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Post by canesfan on May 31, 2016 14:10:02 GMT -6
Can you go with a combined Frosh/Sophomore team? Maybe the JV teams you schedule will can/do similar. Even if they don't you can still do it. We called ours the "futures" team.
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Post by brophy on May 31, 2016 14:23:59 GMT -6
why could you not survive with just freshmen and varsity teams, then arrange practice/scrimmage/exhibitions with 3-4 other local programs to have your sub Varsity players play against? It doesn't have to be an official team, just sophs and juniors repping with varsity, then by week 3 you have a Wednesday / Thursday night scrimmage with refs for these guys? Practice one day prior with the group to set the lineups and run your core systems.
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Post by coachd5085 on May 31, 2016 14:39:55 GMT -6
why could you not survive with just freshmen and varsity teams, then arrange practice/scrimmage/exhibitions with 3-4 other local programs to have your sub Varsity players play against? It doesn't have to be an official team, just sophs and juniors repping with varsity, then by week 3 you have a Wednesday / Thursday night scrimmage with refs for these guys? Practice one day prior with the group to set the lineups and run your core systems. Isn't that what JV is? I think coaches need to be aware that different jurisdictions are going to have different rules/guidelines. I could easily see an organization whose rule is "dressing out but not playing is the same as playing" when it comes to eligibility could easily be just as unforgiving of a "scrimmage with refs" coachwoodall Just to clarify, your coach is CONSIDERING dropping a team correct? Why? Just to shore up perceived depth issues? |
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Post by coach2013 on May 31, 2016 14:44:31 GMT -6
scrawny and scared 10th graders practice with the freshmen.
Everyone else practices with the Senior squad.
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Post by jrk5150 on May 31, 2016 15:24:05 GMT -6
If this is a problem with a bunch of schools, why not get those schools together, and as was mentioned, go 9/10 and Varsity?
If you do that, you'll still have two potential problem areas - what to do with the Sophs who are borderline good enough for varsity, and the Jr's who aren't good enough for varsity getting bored sitting around.
As for those Sophs, that's a decision you need to make - if they're good enough where you don't want to have them ineligible Friday night because they played in the 9/10 game, then make sure they get on the field Friday night in some capacity so they don't sit around not playing at all and lose interest.
With the Juniors - well, if they aren't good enough to even get on the field as Juniors, do you really care? I get that you don't want to lose kids at all, but if a choice has to be made, then I'd risk losing the Juniors who can't get on the field Friday night. And if they have some potential to help as seniors, then get them on the field as juniors.
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Post by coachwoodall on May 31, 2016 19:16:34 GMT -6
1- It's just different than what we've done in the past 15 years.
2- We're trying to figure out the best mix, not just for our kids and our program, but what those kids will have to line up against on game night.
3- We're an experienced staff, so this isn't any different than what we coach in back before 2000.
4- We're in a new place (took over 3 years ago) so we don't want to once again make a big change that will create (too much) discontent in the community.
5- We're in a place where we are already having to compete against multiple sport pulling kids, plus the AAU basketball, fall baseball, kids have other things they can do, etc......
I'm just polling the wisdom of the board.
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Post by coachwoodall on May 31, 2016 19:22:19 GMT -6
scrawny and scared 10th graders practice with the freshmen. Everyone else practices with the Senior squad. Deciding the cut off isn't so much of an issue to me as: - Do we lose some freshman by not having the C Team - Do we lose some kids that think, "I"m not going to start as a 10th/11th grader, but I might come back out my Jr/Sr year"..... something we have had to deal with -- and some are kids that can/could play but they haven't developed by not being there; and most importantly they haven't developed that toughness and cohesiveness that comes from a couple of years in the weight room. We play in a very tough league. The difference between being 4th/5th place is those good athletes that become great/the average ones that become good; and those kids that just come out to play. |
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Post by coachwoodall on May 31, 2016 19:26:24 GMT -6
why could you not survive with just freshmen and varsity teams, then arrange practice/scrimmage/exhibitions with 3-4 other local programs to have your sub Varsity players play against? It doesn't have to be an official team, just sophs and juniors repping with varsity, then by week 3 you have a Wednesday / Thursday night scrimmage with refs for these guys? Practice one day prior with the group to set the lineups and run your core systems. Our region/conference/league games are pretty much set: you schedule varsity and your JV and Freshman teams also play. We can't play 'friendlies' or other mixed level games unless that is scheduled in the spring like a varsity game. In the past, most often when these type of situations occur the result is that somebody loses a game -- IE the JV team is cancelled, only playing a Freshman game this week. We can move kids up or down, week to week. We'r trying to build a consistent program 7-12. |
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Post by coachwoodall on May 31, 2016 19:29:21 GMT -6
Again, I'm not trying to knock anyone's suggestion, I might have failed mightily to adequately explain the entire situation.
I appreiciate all responses.
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Post by rsmith627 on May 31, 2016 19:30:02 GMT -6
Haven't read all of the posts here, but if I have to favor one I'd favor your freshman team. Your program can't sustain without them, as in, if they get their butts kicked by varsity everyday they don't come back. In Utah both schools I was at, we scrapped JV because it was just varsity scrubs who will never start, and juniors in the same boat. That frosh team was important though.
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Post by coachd5085 on May 31, 2016 20:23:54 GMT -6
1- It's just different than what we've done in the past 15 years. 2- We're trying to figure out the best mix, not just for our kids and our program, but what those kids will have to line up against on game night. 3- We're an experienced staff, so this isn't any different than what we coach in back before 2000. 4- We're in a new place (took over 3 years ago) so we don't want to once again make a big change that will create (too much) discontent in the community. 5- We're in a place where we are already having to compete against multiple sport pulling kids, plus the AAU basketball, fall baseball, kids have other things they can do, etc...... I'm just polling the wisdom of the board. Again coach.. you said your HC is considering this. With all of these issues...is he looking at this simply to shore up potential depth problems created by the 1 game a week limit? |
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Post by coachwoodall on May 31, 2016 21:00:09 GMT -6
Mostly to shore up depth. We lost a lot this off season; only have 2 starters back on O and D.
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Post by coachd5085 on May 31, 2016 21:06:45 GMT -6
Mostly to shore up depth. We lost a lot this off season; only have 2 starters back on O and D. My opinion to the HC in the office would be "Well coach, do we potentially mortgage our future because we are worried about having BACKUPS? I would sit down and make some lists. How many Frosh do we think we will have coming up? How many of those Frosh would be able to play on JV? How many guys do we definitely think will get playing time on varsity? How many guys do we think might get varsity time? How many guys will not get varsity time unless there is an injury? The more I think of it, I would strongly support the idea of keeping all three teams, and then just moving people around week by week. I realize this has the potential to lead to one of those "Sorry Coach, we have to cancel the JV game this week, just don't have the bodies" in some situations. |
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Post by tabs52 on Jun 1, 2016 5:05:10 GMT -6
In the region I coach the trend has gone to 7/8 grade and then freshmen to varsity. Being where I coach, and the teams we played recently our freshman did not get any game time unless it was mop duty on Friday night, there time was JV. The real problem came in practice, they didn't the time spent on them to develop them as needed. Our school forced us to cut our Jr High program then forced us to cut coaches as well. We have toyed around with different schedules for practices and such but just still have not found a great way to schedule to get them the reps they need. Ideally this year our JV will be our 9th/10th graders only, except for those that play varsity
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Post by blb on Jun 1, 2016 5:15:29 GMT -6
I strongly suggest you try to keep three teams.
The only way to be consistently successful at your level is Vertical Continuity.
If you lose a Sub-Varsity team your kids will be a year behind, always playing catch-up, and your numbers will suffer.
I felt if we had at least 17 kids we could have a team. Less than that at either level we would have to combine Freshmen with JVs (Sophomores).
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Post by tabs52 on Jun 1, 2016 7:51:16 GMT -6
I strongly suggest you try to keep three teams. The only way to be consistently successful at your level is Vertical Continuity. If you lose a Sub-Varsity team your kids will be a year behind, always playing catch-up, and your numbers will suffer. I felt if we had at least 17 kids we could have a team. Less than that at either level we would have to combine Freshmen with JVs (Sophomores). I completely agree, i see the development of our freshmen being behind because of this |
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