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Post by coachdynasty on Mar 8, 2016 12:30:49 GMT -6
Hi Coaches,
Our staff is debating on making the depth chart viewable by the players. I'm looking for some feedback on pros/cons other staffs have experienced when doing this. For example here are a couple that we came up with right away:
Pro- Players know where they stand
Con- Complacency by 1st teamers Discouragement from 2nd-3rd stringers
Thanks! |
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barlow
Sophomore Member
Posts: 104 
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Post by barlow on Mar 8, 2016 12:50:42 GMT -6
Dynasty i want to do this because it will run from varsity down to jv in one continuous depth. Kids see they can move up and down. Including down to jv from varsity if not cracking rotation.
I think the key is it needs to actually be a fluid depth that anyone can move up or down. No room to be complacent.
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Post by carookie on Mar 8, 2016 12:56:31 GMT -6
Pro- Lil Johnny goes down, and the player you want to back him up goes in, as opposed to the player who would be last on your list.
Starters know who they are and putting their name on a piece of paper won't cause them to get complacent (if they are going to get complacent that will happen due to other factors); same for the discouragement angle. Having an open depth chart is a matter of organization, in addition to this I would recomend doing pregame call out sessions (both Thu and Fri) line up your starters and then call out one of them as being down, he sprints out and replacement sprints in, repeat.
Someone is going to go down, have an equipment malfunction, or something where there backup needs to sprint in ASAP; it is inefficient and poor planning to not have your players know who the next man up is.
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Post by 44dlcoach on Mar 8, 2016 13:02:18 GMT -6
We have always posted it in the locker room each week, O, D, & ST. We list 3 deep and find a way to put everybody somewhere on the 3 deep even if it means 3rd team is Smith/Jones at certain positions.
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Post by agap on Mar 8, 2016 14:55:10 GMT -6
We don't because the players know where they are on the depth chart. Players don't need to see they moved from 3rd string to 2nd string on a piece of paper because they'll get reps during practice when they usually didn't.
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Post by fantom on Mar 8, 2016 17:55:36 GMT -6
The reason I don't like posting One is that usually there's a difference between the "paper" depth chart, used for practice, and the real depth chart. If our starting RG goes down we'll replace him with the 3rd best guard. That might be the #2 LG, not the guy listed as the #2 on the chart. If that #2 RG thinks ir's his turn but he doesn;t get in that could cause resentment.
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Post by vanden48 on Mar 8, 2016 21:55:53 GMT -6
I like the idea of posting a depth chart. The problem fantom has I think can be solved by putting the player's name up there twice under different spots. I didn't post one last year and it caused some miscommunications and chaos on all three levels of the program. I want the coaches to know who they have and where they are going in at, same with the players.
This will also let some kids decide to try and compete at another position. My All State Y receiver who is returning is not going to get beat out this year. The #2 Y might decide that he is better than the #1 Z or the #1 X, and ask to compete there with other players who he might beat out.
I like the idea of posting depth charts and I'm going to post one for Offense and Defense that is 5 deep, for each level, Varsity, JV, and Junior High. Special Teams will be two deep.
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Post by coachorm on Mar 8, 2016 22:27:24 GMT -6
We do a position chart at he start of spring. Just so the kids know what indi group to go with. We don't want them to assume who is and isn't starting. Yeah Lil Johnny rushed for 2k last season and everyone knows he is the starter but we still want them to just look at it as a what position do I play.
I lot of this is because each year we get several kids that have never played or didnt play te previous year come out and we just want them to have a little bit of a clue. It doesnt always help but sometimes makes for good humor. Like last year when we had a freshman wr going with the OL during Indi. We had it posted and everything but when we broke into groups he just decided his 125lb frame was better suited for OL.
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Post by carookie on Mar 8, 2016 23:00:11 GMT -6
The reason I don't like posting One is that usually there's a difference between the "paper" depth chart, used for practice, and the real depth chart. If our starting RG goes down we'll replace him with the 3rd best guard. That might be the #2 LG, not the guy listed as the #2 on the chart. If that #2 RG thinks ir's his turn but he doesn;t get in that could cause resentment. I would think this would be even more of a reason to have an articulated depth chart. You have your 3rd best guard listed under both spots (RG and LG) as the first backup, that way he knows if either goes down to sprint in and get to work. If your #4 guard is resentful that guard #3 tough? Players resenting teammates success or standing should never preclude us from doing what is best |
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Post by fantom on Mar 9, 2016 0:13:58 GMT -6
The reason I don't like posting One is that usually there's a difference between the "paper" depth chart, used for practice, and the real depth chart. If our starting RG goes down we'll replace him with the 3rd best guard. That might be the #2 LG, not the guy listed as the #2 on the chart. If that #2 RG thinks ir's his turn but he doesn;t get in that could cause resentment. I would think this would be even more of a reason to have an articulated depth chart. You have your 3rd best guard listed under both spots (RG and LG) as the first backup, that way he knows if either goes down to sprint in and get to work. If your #4 guard is resentful that guard #3 tough? Players resenting teammates success or standing should never preclude us from doing what is best Why is posting the chart best? I know who the next guy is and, even though there isn't a posted depth chart, that #3 guard knows where he stands because in practice he'll get some work at both positions with the firsts. If a kid gets hurt in a game how long dos it take for me to tell Jones to get in? |
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Post by blb on Mar 9, 2016 5:53:56 GMT -6
I have always posted a Depth Chart including Special Teams and situational substititutions (GL Offense, ex.) primarily for organizational purposes. When we call out "2nd Defense!" or a Special Team, I want eleven guys to come running and not have to stand around waiting to figure it out. And besides I'm just OCD or anal that way.
I also used it somewhat as a motivational tool in that we told kids where they were - 1st team, 2nd team, etc. - on first day of practice Depth Chart would be in part due to how they did on Physical Fitness Test (and thus what they did in Off-Season) and at our Summer Camp.
Also during Camp we let kids practice at whatever position they wanted to because they paid for it, but once practice started coaches put them where we felt they could help Team most and thus have best chance to play.
fantom's point about 3rd best Guard as opposed to 2nd RG is not without foundation though and has to be addressed. |
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Post by rosey65 on Mar 9, 2016 8:51:22 GMT -6
I would think this would be even more of a reason to have an articulated depth chart. You have your 3rd best guard listed under both spots (RG and LG) as the first backup, that way he knows if either goes down to sprint in and get to work. If your #4 guard is resentful that guard #3 tough? Players resenting teammates success or standing should never preclude us from doing what is best Why is posting the chart best? I know who the next guy is and, even though there isn't a posted depth chart, that #3 guard knows where he stands because in practice he'll get some work at both positions with the firsts. If a kid gets hurt in a game how long dos it take for me to tell Jones to get in? I'm with you on this, Fantom. Sure, a depth chart would be a great, if not necessary, reminder for Special Teams. But for position coaches? I dont see how a posted depth chart would do anything but sow resentment and disappointment. I get 9-12 OL every season. We have 2 groups for practice, but a depth chart would get a little convoluted, and be a someone degrading thing to look at: Our best linemen all get reps at C, and we'll end up being lucky if we have a 6th guy who is good enough to not be a liability. He is the backup at all the other spots, unless we move a G to T and put the swing guy at G...you get the idea. NOT writing down a depth chart gives me the freedom to have fluidity with my line, plugging in the next best guy, without having to worry about whether I wrote 'johnny' or 'timmy' down on a paper. My best 5 play. Someone mentioned a receiver changing positions to not be in the shadow of a great receiver. Is this not done by coaches on day 1? "Learn this position, in case he goes down, but learn the OTHER position, because we want you on the field with him" The best 11 need to be on the field in the best combination of positions. It is up to us to make that happen. |
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Post by bluedevils10 on Mar 9, 2016 9:13:43 GMT -6
I think and agree you need to post the positions for players so they know where to go. I do think if you need to put Smith at both 2nd team LG & RG so be it and challenge the #4 G to get better and compete to earn that spot. Healthy competition improves the overall team.
Coach may also considered addressing it with the whole team and let people know if they have questions to come and speak with the position or HC.
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Post by carookie on Mar 9, 2016 9:34:49 GMT -6
I would think this would be even more of a reason to have an articulated depth chart. You have your 3rd best guard listed under both spots (RG and LG) as the first backup, that way he knows if either goes down to sprint in and get to work. If your #4 guard is resentful that guard #3 tough? Players resenting teammates success or standing should never preclude us from doing what is best Why is posting the chart best? I know who the next guy is and, even though there isn't a posted depth chart, that #3 guard knows where he stands because in practice he'll get some work at both positions with the firsts. If a kid gets hurt in a game how long dos it take for me to tell Jones to get in? I think articulating things out in as many ways possible is always the best. Why not have the written depth chart, and the #3 guard work at it; there is no overkill in having a depth chart, no wasted extra time, it just further eliminates any confusion by putting forth a little extra work on out behalf. I both draw up plays on the white board, and have them walk through them on the field. Do I think they know them by walking through them on the field? Yes, but having this second method (which once again takes so little effort, and places no extra burden on the players) is beneficial. I especially think this is beneficial on special teams, where things may be more fluid, and players spend less time then on their regular positions |
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Post by fantom on Mar 10, 2016 22:18:23 GMT -6
Why is posting the chart best? I know who the next guy is and, even though there isn't a posted depth chart, that #3 guard knows where he stands because in practice he'll get some work at both positions with the firsts. If a kid gets hurt in a game how long dos it take for me to tell Jones to get in? I think articulating things out in as many ways possible is always the best. Why not have the written depth chart, and the #3 guard work at it; there is no overkill in having a depth chart, no wasted extra time, it just further eliminates any confusion by putting forth a little extra work on out behalf. I both draw up plays on the white board, and have them walk through them on the field. Do I think they know them by walking through them on the field? Yes, but having this second method (which once again takes so little effort, and places no extra burden on the players) is beneficial. I especially think this is beneficial on special teams, where things may be more fluid, and players spend less time then on their regular positions What confusion? BTW, we do post a ST depth chart every day. |
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Post by wibblemonkey on Mar 11, 2016 4:42:04 GMT -6
My preference is for an above the line/below the line chart as described by Florida's Geoff Collins last summer.
Basically if you're above the line, you're guranteed to get game time (dependent on discipline etc) no matter how close the game is, you're trusted as good enough. If you're below the line, you might get game time if it's possible. Obviously you have to be careful about who is above the line, as they have to be good enough that if the games on the line in the 4th, and they haven't been on yet, that you trust them to do the job. It could be that only one guy at each position is where you need them to be to be above the line, or it could be 5 or 6 if you are confident with high rotation.
Those lists themselves are alphabetical rather than ranked, so it gives the players something to aim for if they're below the line, but doesn't create the resentment that you've rated Johnny #6 and Joe #7 but Joe thinks he's better than Johnny.
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Post by CoachMikeJudy on Mar 11, 2016 7:07:10 GMT -6
Hi Coaches,
Our staff is debating on making the depth chart viewable by the players. I'm looking for some feedback on pros/cons other staffs have experienced when doing this. For example here are a couple that we came up with right away:
Pro- Players know where they stand
Con- Complacency by 1st teamers Discouragement from 2nd-3rd stringers
Thanks! It will only lead to complacency if it never changes. The first time one of those kids screws up- drop him down the depth chart and watch how they react. IMO this sort of thing works for me- i believe in transparency with the kids; I want them to know how we make decisions for the team. Also, the depth chart could hold YOU accountable to follow through- if the rule is don't be late to practice, and your starting RB is late unexcused you had better drop him or the kids will know you're full of $hit. |
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Post by gibbs72 on Mar 11, 2016 8:07:40 GMT -6
When I was ST coordinator, I could not imagine not having a depth chart posted. But I agree that it is not as necessary for position coaches. For us, those positions are too fluid. I worked with a coach that would post one for O&D on Thursday for pregame and take it down Monday. The point was the Mon-Wed the pieces were shuffled and could be re-ordered before Thursday. His visual way of saying no job is safe and if you like your job, practice/ play like it. I really liked it.
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barlow
Sophomore Member
Posts: 104
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Post by barlow on Mar 11, 2016 9:08:30 GMT -6
Hi Coaches,
Our staff is debating on making the depth chart viewable by the players. I'm looking for some feedback on pros/cons other staffs have experienced when doing this. For example here are a couple that we came up with right away:
Pro- Players know where they stand
Con- Complacency by 1st teamers Discouragement from 2nd-3rd stringers
Thanks! It will only lead to complacency if it never changes. The first time one of those kids screws up- drop him down the depth chart and watch how they react. IMO this sort of thing works for me- i believe in transparency with the kids; I want them to know how we make decisions for the team. Also, the depth chart could hold YOU accountable to follow through- if the rule is don't be late to practice, and your starting RB is late unexcused you had better drop him or the kids will know you're full of $hit. |
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Post by tmtfootball on Mar 13, 2016 13:54:59 GMT -6
We haven't posted the o/d depth chart but always have posted our special teams depth charts. For the most part our kids know where they are on O and D.
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Post by 3rdandlong on Mar 13, 2016 16:24:40 GMT -6
The reason I don't like posting One is that usually there's a difference between the "paper" depth chart, used for practice, and the real depth chart. If our starting RG goes down we'll replace him with the 3rd best guard. That might be the #2 LG, not the guy listed as the #2 on the chart. If that #2 RG thinks ir's his turn but he doesn;t get in that could cause resentment. This! Especially because, there maybe times where the back up to another position is already a starter. Example, the LT may get injured, the starting RT now moves to LT. The QB gets hurt, well the starting WR may be the backup etc. |
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Post by carookie on Mar 14, 2016 14:53:45 GMT -6
For those who are against it, what about when you go to a sub package or goalline (or a personnel group you do not base out of and don't work in as often)? You add a nickleback or an extra DT, and then bang you get an injury, who is up next? You may know, but if you are involved in something else at the time isn't it best to have everyone on the same page. Why not plan everything out before hand instead of relying on "I know who is going in next".
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Post by Chris Clement on Mar 14, 2016 15:30:47 GMT -6
We have to publish a depth chart for each game, and we have to list our whole game day roster on it (42/45/50 depending on circumstances) but nobody takes it particularly seriously. Our players have a good sense of where they stand based on practice groups but even those shuffle often enough not to get married to them. So, whatever, nobody sweats it. But teenagers can be dumb.
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Post by fantom on Mar 14, 2016 15:53:08 GMT -6
For those who are against it, what about when you go to a sub package or goalline (or a personnel group you do not base out of and don't work in as often)? You add a nickleback or an extra DT, and then bang you get an injury, who is up next? You may know, but if you are involved in something else at the time isn't it best to have everyone on the same page. Why not plan everything out before hand instead of relying on "I know who is going in next". It is planned out. I may have it written out. It just isn't posted for the kids. In the case of situational personnel packages, the answer is simple- the package is out the window. We don't use them every game and don't depend on them. We do not have a backup nickel DB. So, wee stick with our normaal personnel and the backup goes in. I can't imagine what I'd be involved in that would prevent me from making an injury substitution. |
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Post by hunhdisciple on Mar 14, 2016 20:14:03 GMT -6
I make my own personal one. And I have the starters, and then I just make a list of the order everyone is in.
And I make several various lists based on the situation.
But we don't make a universal one, mainly because our true #2 is usually playing another position. It also depends on what's happened in that game. I mean, if it's a big lead either way, I'm more likely just to put someone in who needs the reps, rather than the possibly best fit.
If you have a large enough team to where your #2 C is only your #2 C, then I guess it could be a good way to let kids know where they stand.
We currently have a vacant CB spot, and one kid is pretty sure it's him. But, if we were to release a depth chart, he'd probably be depressed to figure out that he isn't on the 4-deep.
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pistola
Sophomore Member
Posts: 193
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Post by pistola on Mar 15, 2016 10:45:35 GMT -6
We make out depth charts for O/D/ST.. every week.. we only include ST in the scouting report. other than that the depth charts are for the coaches. We are at really small school so a players name is listed multiple times at some points. it is very organized but i dont feel posting it each week would really be all that beneficial.
we do post lists at the start of the year with what position groups the kids go with, but it isnt a depth chart and after that we just relay to a kid if he needs to be somewhere else at practice
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