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Post by pistolwhipped on Feb 17, 2016 9:31:23 GMT -6
Withdrew from school today and heading to a large program about 45 minutes away. He's a great lineman in our small enrollment conference but he has dreams of playing Division 1 ball and thinks that playing for a State Runner Up he's got a better chance of being seen. He's extremely strong and a great finisher but is about 6ft on his best day. I feel gut punched but most of all I think he's being misled by mom and dad into thinking it's a possibility that he gets money or even an offer to walk-on somewhere.
I'm 6'8 and know the game all to well. I was given way more opportunities than the 6'1 Guard that was likely a better technician, better lifter, and likely a better player. It's not fair, but it's how the college/pro game is played.
Sorry, end rant.
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Post by gibbs72 on Feb 17, 2016 9:42:05 GMT -6
Sorry to hear that, Coach. Been through it before, and as harsh and cliche as it is to hear. . . adapt and move on.
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Post by John Knight on Feb 17, 2016 9:46:51 GMT -6
I would wish him well and tell him I would help any way I could. He is probably making a mistake but not much you can do about it.
Treat these things like a dog, if you can't eat it, or hump it, pi$$ on it and walk away!
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Post by coachbdud on Feb 17, 2016 9:47:05 GMT -6
That sucks
6 foot OL are JC/D2 OL
Sad but true
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Post by John Knight on Feb 17, 2016 9:48:43 GMT -6
6 foot OL are JC/D2 OL
Sad but true
DII nonscholarship maybe.
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Post by fcboiler87 on Feb 17, 2016 9:53:36 GMT -6
I hate to hear that for you. But it's probably for the best. Supposedly our best guy is threatening to do the same. I don't actually think he will, he'd get lost at a big school in the shuffle. After dealing with all the buy-in issues and attitude/behavior problems and he decided to go, see ya. Obviously you want to keep a talented guy around, but at what cost if he doesn't want to be there? Don't get me wrong, I've had numerous conversations with him but sometimes they just don't want to do what you ask. Or, as you said, sometimes they are being misled to believe a bigger school equals more exposure. Sorry bud, you're 5'7 no high school in the world is going to make a difference on your height.
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Post by pistolwhipped on Feb 17, 2016 9:59:39 GMT -6
Thanks guys.
Great family that basically runs the boosters for our school. Not a problem whatsoever and I probably spent countless hours working with him on our own time over the summers. Just sucks but need to work on finding his successor. Next man up.
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Post by coachcb on Feb 17, 2016 10:15:00 GMT -6
Sorry coach... I guess I would look at the upside to it: you're down a kid who is more focused on getting a college scholarship than playing for his team and teammates. It'll honestly save you hassles down the road.
We've had many kids who are convinced that they're going to play at the next level and so are their folks and their attitude is rarely positive for the team. Some bust their humps and are humble about it but most are overwhelmed with delusions of grandeur.
We had a kid a few years ago who loved football but spent his summers attending various college and "pro" camps. The kid was 5'9'', 175lbs by his senior year and he and his folks caused us nothing but trouble over the space of four years. It was one thing after another: he and his parents felt he should be playing TB and "getting more carries", they hated our offense because it wasn't "pro", and our weight training program wasn't up to snuff so they shelled out money for him to train with "Velocity" and other "training facilities". Our HC and AD fielded so many phone calls from these people and it was ridiculous. He just hurt himself in the long run; he went from a starting Mike LB and FB/H-back his sophomore year to not seeing a down his senior year. His crap attitude ended up getting him buried on the depth chart (funny how other players pass by you when they listen in practice and don't complain every other day...) but that just made us "bullies".
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Post by s73 on Feb 17, 2016 12:43:41 GMT -6
Sorry coach... I guess I would look at the upside to it: you're down a kid who is more focused on getting a college scholarship than playing for his team and teammates. It'll honestly save you hassles down the road. We've had many kids who are convinced that they're going to play at the next level and so are their folks and their attitude is rarely positive for the team. Some bust their humps and are humble about it but most are overwhelmed with delusions of grandeur. We had a kid a few years ago who loved football but spent his summers attending various college and "pro" camps. The kid was 5'9'', 175lbs by his senior year and he and his folks caused us nothing but trouble over the space of four years. It was one thing after another: he and his parents felt he should be playing TB and "getting more carries", they hated our offense because it wasn't "pro", and our weight training program wasn't up to snuff so they shelled out money for him to train with "Velocity" and other "training facilities". Our HC and AD fielded so many phone calls from these people and it was ridiculous. He just hurt himself in the long run; he went from a starting Mike LB and FB/H-back his sophomore year to not seeing a down his senior year. His crap attitude ended up getting him buried on the depth chart (funny how other players pass by you when they listen in practice and don't complain every other day...) but that just made us "bullies". Been in the same situation many times. The biggest thing FOR ME is when I have kids like this, I work overtime to find "the diamond in the rough". They are out there. I have a stud FB w/ a serious "off season excuse making issue". After getting on his case for a month or so and emailing his parents I chose another path & feel great about it. I decided to think "outside the box" & ask a pretty athletic stud we have on the DL if he was interested in trying out at FB. Kid had to walk around the rest of the day with his books in front of his jeans if you get my meaning. I don't know if it will work out well or not, but I do know that instead of being all "down & out" about our "stud FB" being a cancerous turd, I am now excited about what MIGHT BE w/ a kid who is in love with the idea of playing FB and will do whatever he can to try and make himself able to do so. This new approach I have adopted this off season in particular has helped me to avoid that bitterness that I think we as coaches sometimes feel when able bodied kids choose not to get with the program. Has really taken away some of the burden for me. |
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Post by coachcb on Feb 17, 2016 12:57:35 GMT -6
s73I agree completely. I also pay close attention to those special kids that I feel are being overlooked. When I first began coaching, we had an excellent player at TB; he was quick, elusive but he always made sure we knew that baseball was his priority and not just in the off-season. He missed the first few days of a August camp to attend an "invitation only" pitching camp. He wasn't a bad kid (I still keep in contact with him) and he made up those missed days with conditioning. But we also had a solid second string WR that busted his hump during the off-season, attended camps and made damn-sure he was there for the start of the season. Several of us pushed and pushed the HC to get the kid a look at the starting line-up at TB because he had played a little bit of it in scout team and really showed promise. Thankfully, the HC is a reasonable, good guy and listened to us; the second string WR ended up sharing carries with our stud TB for the next two seasons. It would have been easy to overlook the kid if we had just left him at WR because a)we had several excellent WRs ahead of him and b) the kid was a better fit at TB because of his attitude. He wasn't as athletic as our stud but he was a NASTY runner; physical, aggressive and just a great north/south ball carrier. I've always said; find your best FOOTBALL players, not necessarily your best ATHLETES. Hopefully they'll be one in the same but we've coached many kids over the years that love the physical nature of the sport, are coach-able and will work hard on and off of the field.
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coachnewman
Freshmen Member
On this team, we're all united in a common goal: to keep my job." -Lou Holtz
Posts: 85
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Post by coachnewman on Feb 17, 2016 12:58:13 GMT -6
Coach I feel your pain, as I will probably lose the Qb(6'0 ft) of a program I am taking over, and he is a gifted player who talent wise would make us better.
My thoughts on it are would love to have ya but no one player is going to make or break the team, sucks and hate to lose people, but it is what it is. Next Man Up
Wish you the best of luck Coach!
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Post by s73 on Feb 17, 2016 13:08:25 GMT -6
s73 I agree completely. I also pay close attention to those special kids that I feel are being overlooked. When I first began coaching, we had an excellent player at TB; he was quick, elusive but he always made sure we knew that baseball was his priority and not just in the off-season. He missed the first few days of a August camp to attend an "invitation only" pitching camp. He wasn't a bad kid (I still keep in contact with him) and he made up those missed days with conditioning. But we also had a solid second string WR that busted his hump during the off-season, attended camps and made damn-sure he was there for the start of the season. Several of us pushed and pushed the HC to get the kid a look at the starting line-up at TB because he had played a little bit of it in scout team and really showed promise. Thankfully, the HC is a reasonable, good guy and listened to us; the second string WR ended up sharing carries with our stud TB for the next two seasons. It would have been easy to overlook the kid if we had just left him at WR because a)we had several excellent WRs ahead of him and b) the kid was a better fit at TB because of his attitude. He wasn't as athletic as our stud but he was a NASTY runner; physical, aggressive and just a great north/south ball carrier. I've always said; find your best FOOTBALL players, not necessarily your best ATHLETES. Hopefully they'll be one in the same but we've coached many kids over the years that love the physical nature of the sport, are coach-able and will work hard on and off of the field. Agreed. I think it's good for the kids, team, program and most of all my own mental health (LOL). It's very satisfying to award kids who've earned it. Doesn't always happen but I'm trying harder than I used to. |
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Post by leighty on Feb 17, 2016 13:14:49 GMT -6
Sorry coach... I guess I would look at the upside to it: you're down a kid who is more focused on getting a college scholarship than playing for his team and teammates. It'll honestly save you hassles down the road. I think this is a pretty myopic and immature way to look at the situation. It's also entirely too common - nearly every coach I've ever spoken with who's had a player leave took the opportunity to vilify the kid. If the kid and his parents think it's in his best interest to explore other opportunities, who are you to argue with that? Doing what he thinks is in his best interest and being committed to a team are not mutually exclusive. What coaches in this situation mean when they say, "He's not committed to the team," is "He's not committed to my team." |
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Post by s73 on Feb 17, 2016 13:51:13 GMT -6
Sorry coach... I guess I would look at the upside to it: you're down a kid who is more focused on getting a college scholarship than playing for his team and teammates. It'll honestly save you hassles down the road. I think this is a pretty myopic and immature way to look at the situation. It's also entirely too common - nearly every coach I've ever spoken with who's had a player leave took the opportunity to vilify the kid. If the kid and his parents think it's in his best interest to explore other opportunities, who are you to argue with that? Doing what he thinks is in his best interest and being committed to a team are not mutually exclusive. What coaches in this situation mean when they say, "He's not committed to the team," is "He's not committed to my team." Coach, I might agree with your point of view if most of these situations didn't usually end up poorly for both the program and the kid. After 20 years of coaching, in MY EXPERIENCE, most kids who act as if "the program" is holding them back generally have delusions of grandeur and blame their current program for not getting them the "exposure" they expect and if they just go to a "better" program, all will be well. In reality, they are not getting the type of exposure they expect b/c they aren't good enough. They are simply good, solid high school football players and nothing more. Nothing wrong with that. But for some reason, some parents nowadays have drink the cool-aid of the numerous recruiters out there who are selling every one can get a scholarship for $29.99/ month on my fancy new website. Had a QB a few years back who bought that same cool-aid and went the recruiter route and me and mom got into it b/c she wanted him to miss summer camp to attend all of these fancy "exposure camps". She spent hundreds on them as well as monthly payments to a website and hundreds more to a trainer that was doing nothing more than we were doing for him for free. And, it kind of alienated him from some of his teammates. Well, long story short he went D3 anyway, was buried on the depth chart and quit after one year. He wasn't capable of D1 but they refused to hear it and lost a lot of money b/c of it. Have been told by MANY D1 recruiters that if a kid is legit THEY will find him. In the meantime, many kids and parents are interfering with what could otherwise be a perfectly fun & UNCOMPLICATED HS FB career if they would just butt out and let their kid be a kid. Our story ended well, he was wiser than mom and fell back into the fold before he pi$$ed away his whole senior off season and had a nice senior year. A lot of them don't figure it out until its' too late and end up hurting the team and themselves. JMO. |
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Post by groundchuck on Feb 17, 2016 13:59:16 GMT -6
This is becoming all too common now. All you can do is treat kids right and coach them up. I've had in t happen too when I was at a different school my best player left and went to a bigger school.
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Post by fantom on Feb 17, 2016 14:01:55 GMT -6
Withdrew from school today and heading to a large program about 45 minutes away. He's a great lineman in our small enrollment conference but he has dreams of playing Division 1 ball and thinks that playing for a State Runner Up he's got a better chance of being seen. He's extremely strong and a great finisher but is about 6ft on his best day. I feel gut punched but most of all I think he's being misled by mom and dad into thinking it's a possibility that he gets money or even an offer to walk-on somewhere. I'm 6'8 and know the game all to well. I was given way more opportunities than the 6'1 Guard that was likely a better technician, better lifter, and likely a better player. It's not fair, but it's how the college/pro game is played. Sorry, end rant. Hate to say it but if the kid's hoping for a scholarship, moving may be his best move. No doubt, a 9 foot OL isn't getting a D.1 scholarship but he may get a low-level 1AA or D.2 scholarship. A big question that recruiters have with small school studs is hie level of competition. Playing at a higher level takes some of that concern away. |
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Post by leighty on Feb 17, 2016 14:09:23 GMT -6
Coach, I might agree with your point of view if most of these situations didn't usually end up poorly for both the program and the kid. I don't believe the consequences of the decision, regardless of what they are, justify vilifying a kid. |
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Post by s73 on Feb 17, 2016 14:35:57 GMT -6
Coach, I might agree with your point of view if most of these situations didn't usually end up poorly for both the program and the kid. I don't believe the consequences of the decision, regardless of what they are, justify vilifying a kid. Okay. Where is the vilification? I don't see any name calling or disparaging remarks. What in your mind states that he was vilifying someone? I see it as, kids probably not worth your time so move on. That seems like a logical and non malicious approach to me. Not seeing the vilification. |
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Post by leighty on Feb 17, 2016 14:45:52 GMT -6
Okay. Where is the vilification? I don't see any name calling or disparaging remarks. What in your mind states that he was vilifying someone? I see it as, kids probably not worth your time so move on. That seems like a logical and non malicious approach to me. Not seeing the vilification. I interpret "you're down a kid who is more focused on getting a college scholarship than playing for his team and teammates" as an indictment of the kid's commitment. If you interpret it differently, then we'll just have to agree to disagree. |
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Post by spreadpowero on Feb 17, 2016 14:50:29 GMT -6
Been there done that twice. It sucks. All you can do is take the players who want to be there and make them the best they can be. I would rather coach young men who want to be at our school than coach someone that would rather be somewhere else. Also, when those players were done playing at the bigger school, the schools that were recruiting them when they played for us were the same schools that recruited them at the bigger school. Going to a bigger school did not help them one bit.
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Post by mrjvi on Feb 17, 2016 14:54:44 GMT -6
We seem to have kids transfer out but rarely have ones transfer in. We are consistently decent but we are not in the biggest classification. Listen to others above. Build the ones you have that are loyal.
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Post by s73 on Feb 17, 2016 14:56:43 GMT -6
Okay. Where is the vilification? I don't see any name calling or disparaging remarks. What in your mind states that he was vilifying someone? I see it as, kids probably not worth your time so move on. That seems like a logical and non malicious approach to me. Not seeing the vilification. I interpret "you're down a kid who is more focused on getting a college scholarship than playing for his team and teammates" as an indictment of the kid's commitment. If you interpret it differently, then we'll just have to agree to disagree. I completely interpret it as an indictment on the kids commitment. That doesn't mean a kid was vilified. Many kids are not as committed as we would like. It doesn't make them villains. Focusing on kids who want to be with you is a pretty healthy approach. That was the advice that was given as far as I can tell. |
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Post by natenator on Feb 17, 2016 15:01:39 GMT -6
I interpret "you're down a kid who is more focused on getting a college scholarship than playing for his team and teammates" as an indictment of the kid's commitment. If you interpret it differently, then we'll just have to agree to disagree. I completely interpret it as an indictment on the kids commitment. That doesn't mean a kid was vilified. Many kids are not as committed as we would like. It doesn't make them villains. Focusing on kids who want to be with you is a pretty healthy approach. That was the advice that was given as far as I can tell. I'm kind of with leighty on this. Coaches leave all the time for greener pastures and that they believe is best for themselves and their family. We don't look down upon them in this forum but any time a thread comes up where a kid and their family is trying to do what's best for them then they are labeled as not being team players, uncommitted, and selfish. Also, vilified != villain |
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Post by leighty on Feb 17, 2016 15:10:56 GMT -6
I completely interpret it as an indictment on the kids commitment. That doesn't mean a kid was vilified. That's exactly what it means, especially in the context of this situation. The idea that kids should "be committed" to a program for four years is pervasive in high school football, despite coaches often not holding themselves to the same standard. If a kid can't leave in February and not be accused of being "uncommitted," when can he leave? People make business decisions all the time. That's what this kid and his parents did. And my only point was there's zero value in besmirching someone who made a decision they thought was in their best interest. |
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Post by s73 on Feb 17, 2016 15:17:37 GMT -6
I completely interpret it as an indictment on the kids commitment. That doesn't mean a kid was vilified. Many kids are not as committed as we would like. It doesn't make them villains. Focusing on kids who want to be with you is a pretty healthy approach. That was the advice that was given as far as I can tell. I'm kind of with leighty on this. Coaches leave all the time for greener pastures and that they believe is best for themselves and their family. We don't look down upon them in this forum but any time a thread comes up where a kid and their family is trying to do what's best for them then they are labeled as not being team players, uncommitted, and selfish. Also, vilified != villain Fair enough. But I don't understand how you vilify an anonymous player at an anonymous school on a web site he doesn't frequent and doesn't even know he's being talked about. This could be any kid in the country we're talking about. |
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Post by leighty on Feb 17, 2016 15:22:20 GMT -6
Fair enough. But I don't understand how you vilify an anonymous player at an anonymous school on a web site he doesn't frequent and doesn't even know he's being talked about. This could be any kid in the country we're talking about. I wasn't speaking about coachcb and the nameless kid referenced in the original post specifically. I'm speaking about coaches in general talking about kids who have left their respective programs. I could have made that more clear. |
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Post by natenator on Feb 17, 2016 15:23:34 GMT -6
I'm kind of with leighty on this. Coaches leave all the time for greener pastures and that they believe is best for themselves and their family. We don't look down upon them in this forum but any time a thread comes up where a kid and their family is trying to do what's best for them then they are labeled as not being team players, uncommitted, and selfish. Also, vilified != villain Fair enough. But I don't understand how you vilify an anonymous player at an anonymous school on a web site he doesn't frequent and doesn't even know he's being talked about. This could be any kid in the country we're talking about. If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound? Waiting on Chris to reply to this one so a science debate can ensue lol |
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Post by s73 on Feb 17, 2016 15:23:45 GMT -6
I completely interpret it as an indictment on the kids commitment. That doesn't mean a kid was vilified. That's exactly what it means, especially in the context of this situation. The idea that kids should "be committed" to a program for four years is pervasive in high school football, despite coaches often not holding themselves to the same standard. If a kid can't leave in February and not be accused of being "uncommitted," when can he leave? People make business decisions all the time. That's what this kid and his parents did. And my only point was there's zero value in besmirching someone who made a decision they thought was in their best interest. The kid made a decision that he thought was in his best interest - your words. The kid is more interested in getting a scholarship than playing for your team - CB's words. Both statements are true. CB says, you're better off without him and move on. Don't waste time focusing on kids that don't want to be with you. Many other much more disparaging comments about this "type of kid" all over this thread. Still scratching my head why you chose this comment to be offended by. But, like you said earlier, we'll have to agree to disagree. |
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Post by s73 on Feb 17, 2016 15:26:48 GMT -6
Fair enough. But I don't understand how you vilify an anonymous player at an anonymous school on a web site he doesn't frequent and doesn't even know he's being talked about. This could be any kid in the country we're talking about. I wasn't speaking about coachcb and the nameless kid referenced in the original post specifically. I'm speaking about coaches in general talking about kids who have left their respective programs. I could have made that more clear. That makes a lot more sense. I still think we have a right to be frustrated by kids whose commitments we question but I agree this POV is much more gray. |
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Post by coachcb on Feb 19, 2016 12:16:45 GMT -6
For me, it isn't about having resentment towards the player, I do want this best for them. It comes down to letting the frustration that comes with these situations go and the bets way for me to do that is to believe that the program is better off without that particular player. In my experience, players and parents that are solely focused on college scholarships are a detriment to the program because it's not about the team anymore; it's completely about them and their ambitions. At it's basic level, we coach a team sport and successful programs have kids, parents and communities that buy into that fact. They understand that they are participating in something bigger than themselves and their aspirations of playing college football. So, in the end, I don't harbor ill-will towards these players but I don't believe that they are conducive to a solid, successful football team. So, they can go their own way, we'll go ours and that's that.
However, I am growing increasingly frustrated with this the idea that high school athletics are simply a springboard for the college level. It is becoming a pervasive attitude among players and parents and, IMO, it's wrong. Yes, I want to win. Yes, I want to establish a successful program. But, the only reason I have lasted this long in coaching is because the biggest joy I get from it is watching kids come together, form a bond and grow from it. I love watching kids buy into the fact that they are a part of a team that is striving towards a common goal and make that a priority. Kids and parents that are so dialed into college scholarships, often times, do not understand this and it detracts from what we're all trying to do.
I'll toss out another example that is somewhat contradictory to what I've stated above because I know that there are many situations. I began coaching at the middle school level; an HC of an 8th grade team. I continued to move up the coaching ranks with this team until they were juniors and graduated college. We had a TB/HB on that team who was incredibly focused on getting a college scholarship not only did he earn a FCS college scholarship, he currently has a roster spot with the Seattle Seahawks. But, IMO, he did things the right way. He bought into the program, he lifted in the off-season, he went to camps, he was very coach-able, bought into what we were doing and developed a solid bond with his peers and coaches. Now, we did not have much success; our best record was 4-6 throughout those years BUT, this player and his mother kept a good perspective on the situation; work hard, learn from the coaches, and then a college scholarship would come around. The team may have not been successful but he cared about his teammates, he cared about the program and had pride in what we were all working towards. He still earned an all-state nod even though we weren't the best team in the state.
There was a much smaller, more successful private school in the area and he could have transferred there in a heart-beat. He would have been big fish in a small-pond, gotten more notoriety and recognition and it may have even made his recruiting process easier. But, again, his overall, initial goal was to contribute to the school in the town where he grew up and let everything fall into place from there.
HE was the kind of kid that we all want in a program; play HIGH SCHOOL football first and then focus on college. Kids and parents that bounce to other programs solely for the sake of a college scholarship have lost perspective of what high school athletics is about but this kid managed to do both.
Again, I don't resent the kids that leave a program for in search of a college scholarship but I sure as hell don't mind not having them on the team. They can detract from everything that EVERYONE, including their teammates are trying to do and that's not fair to anyone.
Yes, I have moved around in my career but one of those moves also involved leaving a program that was quite successful; play-off team every year. But, we managed to win games because we were the biggest school in a pathetic conference. I was always extremely frustrated with the kids in that program because there was rarely a bond that formed within the team or personal growth. Quite the opposite; there was an incredible amount of strife for many reasons. We'd tear the conference apart during the season and then it became apparent that we didn't have cohesion when the play-offs rolled around because we'd get our butts handed to us. I'd rather coach for with a 5-5 team with kids that work together and fight through adversity than a 10-0 team that is filled with "stars".
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