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Post by 33coach on Feb 1, 2016 14:55:37 GMT -6
so most of you know how i feel on the topic of vertical integration, but i have to share a story. if you are going to approach a non-affiliated MS team and ask them to run your stuff, this is how NOT to do it....
our January staff meeting was last weekend, ive got a few coaches who have never seriously coached before so im intending to go over the basics of our approach to offense (not even going to get into the actual system, just the approach, to warm these guys up).
the local HS coach comes in Uninvited, stops the whole meeting to tell us why:
1) we HAVE to run his system
2) why the Wing T is not going to be effective for his program
now, normally id go off the rails on the guy, but every interaction ive had up until now has been positive, so i challenged him just alittle bit to see what he was going to say - "coach im not a huge fan of running XYZ at the youth level."
and this is the response i get "well frankly i don't care what you are or arn't a fan of, this is what is going to happen." ....pretty much killed the meeting...
so my word of advice, if you plan on asking, ask instead of attack.
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Post by leighty on Feb 1, 2016 15:18:33 GMT -6
So are you going to run his stuff?
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Post by 33coach on Feb 1, 2016 15:23:54 GMT -6
So are you going to run his stuff? HA - after that, there is no way. (there wasnt anyway we were going to in the first place, but that just solidified it) |
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Post by 60zgo on Feb 1, 2016 16:57:55 GMT -6
Our middle schools don't really have a choice. But as far as youth groups I always meet with them and tell them that we have an open door policy. Ask them to come to practice and we offer them a free clinic every year. I have always shared the playbook, terminology etc. I have yet to have a situation where the youth coaches haven't adopted our system at least in part.
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Post by jrk5150 on Feb 1, 2016 17:36:39 GMT -6
Our middle schools don't really have a choice. But as far as youth groups I always meet with them and tell them that we have an open door policy. Ask them to come to practice and we offer them a free clinic every year. I have always shared the playbook, terminology etc. I have yet to have a situation where the youth coaches haven't adopted our system at least in part. I have been consistent about my opinion that my priority as a youth coach is the experience of the kids on THIS year's team, and that I'm not going to sacrifice that experience to run a non-youth friendly scheme that I don't know to "develop" kids for a team they may never play on. That said, if approached the way 60zgo goes about it, I would probably try to figure out how to run some or all of the HS stuff. We actually as a program have made clear to our local HS that we'd be happy to coordinate more with them. We're a town based program that feeds the HS. No MS program, we go up to 8th grade. Every year the vast majority of the the varsity starters are kids that played for our youth program (21 of 22 in 2014). We've been in business for over 50 years and are considered one of the top Pop Warner programs in our area. Our Pop Warner league is basically the same as the HS league (which is why we stay in Pop Warner), so you end up with essentially the same kids playing with and against each other from 7 to 17. In other words, just about the perfect opportunity for some kind of cooperation. But, the long time HS HC (30 something years) wants no part of us. For a number of years, ending in 2010, we had kids from the neighboring town in our program (because they didn't have one), and that town is our big HS rival. He has refused to have any dealings with us because we were developing players for the enemy. It's f*cking mind-boggling in its stupidity. |
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Post by 19delta on Feb 1, 2016 17:37:29 GMT -6
so most of you know how i feel on the topic of vertical integration, but i have to share a story. if you are going to approach a non-affiliated MS team and ask them to run your stuff, this is how NOT to do it.... our January staff meeting was last weekend, ive got a few coaches who have never seriously coached before so im intending to go over the basics of our approach to offense (not even going to get into the actual system, just the approach, to warm these guys up). the local HS coach comes in Uninvited, stops the whole meeting to tell us why: 1) we HAVE to run his system 2) why the Wing T is not going to be effective for his program now, normally id go off the rails on the guy, but every interaction ive had up until now has been positive, so i challenged him just alittle bit to see what he was going to say - "coach im not a huge fan of running XYZ at the youth level." and this is the response i get "well frankly i don't care what you are or arn't a fan of, this is what is going to happen." ....pretty much killed the meeting... so my word of advice, if you plan on asking, ask instead of attack. We had a pretty fiery thread about this very topic in the youth forum a few months ago. A head coach who tried to pull that kind of crap on my youth program (unaffliated...we are self-funded) would get a giant "GFY" and then I probably would have found out what offense he hated the most and then ran it out of spite. Seriously...what did that guy think was going to happen when he dropped an ultimatum on you like that? Why did he think that "this is what is going to happen"? |
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Post by 19delta on Feb 1, 2016 17:38:36 GMT -6
Our middle schools don't really have a choice. But as far as youth groups I always meet with them and tell them that we have an open door policy. Ask them to come to practice and we offer them a free clinic every year. I have always shared the playbook, terminology etc. I have yet to have a situation where the youth coaches haven't adopted our system at least in part. You catch more flies with honey... Nice job, Coach...that's the way it should work! |
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Post by 33coach on Feb 1, 2016 17:44:30 GMT -6
Our middle schools don't really have a choice. But as far as youth groups I always meet with them and tell them that we have an open door policy. Ask them to come to practice and we offer them a free clinic every year. I have always shared the playbook, terminology etc. I have yet to have a situation where the youth coaches haven't adopted our system at least in part. thats exactly how it should be. when you dont control the program (ie the youth guys) all you should do is put your stuff out there and make yourself available. thats my whole point with this thread, dont be a jerk about it and you will get more guys on board. |
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Post by 33coach on Feb 1, 2016 17:45:56 GMT -6
so most of you know how i feel on the topic of vertical integration, but i have to share a story. if you are going to approach a non-affiliated MS team and ask them to run your stuff, this is how NOT to do it.... our January staff meeting was last weekend, ive got a few coaches who have never seriously coached before so im intending to go over the basics of our approach to offense (not even going to get into the actual system, just the approach, to warm these guys up). the local HS coach comes in Uninvited, stops the whole meeting to tell us why: 1) we HAVE to run his system 2) why the Wing T is not going to be effective for his program now, normally id go off the rails on the guy, but every interaction ive had up until now has been positive, so i challenged him just alittle bit to see what he was going to say - "coach im not a huge fan of running XYZ at the youth level." and this is the response i get "well frankly i don't care what you are or arn't a fan of, this is what is going to happen." ....pretty much killed the meeting... so my word of advice, if you plan on asking, ask instead of attack. We had a pretty fiery thread about this very topic in the youth forum a few months ago. A head coach who tried to pull that kind of crap on my youth program (unaffliated...we are self-funded) would get a giant "GFY" and then I probably would have found out what offense he hated the most and then ran it out of spite. Seriously...what did that guy think was going to happen when he dropped an ultimatum on you like that? Why did he think that "this is what is going to happen"? hes young, and probably feels very powerful sitting at the top..... i think he believes that we would just follow along because we are lowly MS coaches... but he doesnt realize that im a stubborn pr!ck. |
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Post by 19delta on Feb 1, 2016 17:49:15 GMT -6
We had a pretty fiery thread about this very topic in the youth forum a few months ago. A head coach who tried to pull that kind of crap on my youth program (unaffliated...we are self-funded) would get a giant "GFY" and then I probably would have found out what offense he hated the most and then ran it out of spite. Seriously...what did that guy think was going to happen when he dropped an ultimatum on you like that? Why did he think that "this is what is going to happen"? hes young, and probably feels very powerful sitting at the top..... i think he believes that we would just follow along because we are lowly MS coaches... but he doesnt realize that im a stubborn pr!ck. Yeah...me too. I'm a giant a$$hole. That guy wouldn't have got anywhere with me. |
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Post by rsmith627 on Feb 1, 2016 17:49:17 GMT -6
We control our program 7-12. We all run the same system except for our 9th grade team (to make a long story short the guy hasn't bought in and is probably on his way out).
We are one of the more successful programs. Do I think it's because of vertical integration? No, but it doesn't hurt.
As a HC I would love for my feeders to run at least some of my stuff but would never force it at the expense of turning potential athletes off to the game long before they ever reach me.
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Post by 33coach on Feb 1, 2016 17:53:53 GMT -6
We control our program 7-12. We all run the same system except for our 9th grade team (to make a long story short the guy hasn't bought in and is probably on his way out). We are one of the more successful programs. Do I think it's because of vertical integration? No, but it doesn't hurt. As a HC I would love for my feeders to run at least some of my stuff but would never force it at the expense of turning potential athletes off to the game long before they ever reach me. that makes sense, but would you walk into their meeting and try to tell them how it is? |
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Post by groundchuck on Feb 1, 2016 18:01:53 GMT -6
Jeez,
I don't get too caught up in scheme at youth levels. I want our community ed program to teach the kids some fundamentals and make sure they love the game. Treat the kids right. Make sure they come back out the next year.
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Post by utchuckd on Feb 1, 2016 18:05:35 GMT -6
that makes sense, but would you walk into their meeting and try to tell them how it is? Not without hiring/firing authority! |
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Post by jrk5150 on Feb 1, 2016 18:09:13 GMT -6
Here's the problem with this topic on this board - the coaches on here are not the ones we all have issues with, either the HS or the youth guys.
My guess is that the HS coaches that are going to read and comment on a thread like this either HAVE full control over the MS program (meaning that coach works for them so of COURSE he'll run the HS stuff), or would approach it in a way that we as youth coaches would have no issue with. They aren't idiots - they're on here getting better, and the morons that would do what this guy did have no interest in getting better, they already know it all.
And likewise the youth coaches on here aren't the idiot Friday Night Tykes coaches, those guys aren't online getting better because they already know everything.
Amazing how similar the as*hole coaches at the youth and HS level are...
And how similar the guys on here at both levels are.
I'm pretty sure there would be a long line of HS coaches on this board who would react in a very similar fashion as 33coach does if the local college guy came in and demanded you run his stuff so he'd have some local kids to recruit.
Heck - I think I'd know what most of your reactions would be if the AD, who IS your boss, demanded you run his offense. I've seen the threads, usually talking about your former position, LOL.
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Post by rsmith627 on Feb 1, 2016 18:11:26 GMT -6
We control our program 7-12. We all run the same system except for our 9th grade team (to make a long story short the guy hasn't bought in and is probably on his way out). We are one of the more successful programs. Do I think it's because of vertical integration? No, but it doesn't hurt. As a HC I would love for my feeders to run at least some of my stuff but would never force it at the expense of turning potential athletes off to the game long before they ever reach me. that makes sense, but would you walk into their meeting and try to tell them how it is? Of course not. I'd let them know the door is open if they want to learn how we do things. Even if we are a hurry up spread and they want to run the pro I we can still at least use common terminology if possible. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Feb 1, 2016 18:26:07 GMT -6
A head coach who tried to pull that kind of crap on my youth program (unaffliated...we are self-funded) would get a giant "GFY" and then I probably would have found out what offense he hated the most and then ran it out of spite. Don't forget the most important part...be very successful running it, and then mention to all the parents "Hmm..when Johnny was a wing back he did great things for me...its a shame that he doesn't get to play that anymore" |
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Post by mahonz on Feb 1, 2016 19:03:29 GMT -6
so most of you know how i feel on the topic of vertical integration, but i have to share a story. if you are going to approach a non-affiliated MS team and ask them to run your stuff, this is how NOT to do it.... our January staff meeting was last weekend, ive got a few coaches who have never seriously coached before so im intending to go over the basics of our approach to offense (not even going to get into the actual system, just the approach, to warm these guys up). the local HS coach comes in Uninvited, stops the whole meeting to tell us why: 1) we HAVE to run his system 2) why the Wing T is not going to be effective for his program now, normally id go off the rails on the guy, but every interaction ive had up until now has been positive, so i challenged him just alittle bit to see what he was going to say - "coach im not a huge fan of running XYZ at the youth level." and this is the response i get "well frankly i don't care what you are or arn't a fan of, this is what is going to happen." ....pretty much killed the meeting... so my word of advice, if you plan on asking, ask instead of attack. Wow. That is incredible. We dont have any MS Programs. The Org I coach in feeds 5 HS Programs. Glad I dont have to deal with this. It would be quite a mess to integrate 5 systems at once. |
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Post by coachphillip on Feb 1, 2016 19:42:56 GMT -6
Has less to do with proper etiquette as a coach and more to do with how to be a decent human being. Some guys baffle me with what they believe to be acceptable behavior. It wouldn't even be appropriate to order a coffee from Starbucks like that. "I don't give a damn what you care for, I said Pumpkin EFFING Spice!"
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Post by 19delta on Feb 1, 2016 20:03:35 GMT -6
A head coach who tried to pull that kind of crap on my youth program (unaffliated...we are self-funded) would get a giant "GFY" and then I probably would have found out what offense he hated the most and then ran it out of spite. Don't forget the most important part...be very successful running it, and then mention to all the parents "Hmm..when Johnny was a wing back he did great things for me...its a shame that he doesn't get to play that anymore" Nah...not really my style. I'm not the kind of guy to toot my own horn. But I know where you are coming from! |
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Post by 33coach on Feb 1, 2016 20:07:15 GMT -6
so most of you know how i feel on the topic of vertical integration, but i have to share a story. if you are going to approach a non-affiliated MS team and ask them to run your stuff, this is how NOT to do it.... our January staff meeting was last weekend, ive got a few coaches who have never seriously coached before so im intending to go over the basics of our approach to offense (not even going to get into the actual system, just the approach, to warm these guys up). the local HS coach comes in Uninvited, stops the whole meeting to tell us why: 1) we HAVE to run his system 2) why the Wing T is not going to be effective for his program now, normally id go off the rails on the guy, but every interaction ive had up until now has been positive, so i challenged him just alittle bit to see what he was going to say - "coach im not a huge fan of running XYZ at the youth level." and this is the response i get "well frankly i don't care what you are or arn't a fan of, this is what is going to happen." ....pretty much killed the meeting... so my word of advice, if you plan on asking, ask instead of attack. Wow. That is incredible. We dont have any MS Programs. The Org I coach in feeds 5 HS Programs. Glad I dont have to deal with this. It would be quite a mess to integrate 5 systems at once. We feed 3. The guy is just off his rocker. Lol. |
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Post by 33coach on Feb 1, 2016 20:12:02 GMT -6
Here's the problem with this topic on this board - the coaches on here are not the ones we all have issues with, either the HS or the youth guys. My guess is that the HS coaches that are going to read and comment on a thread like this either HAVE full control over the MS program (meaning that coach works for them so of COURSE he'll run the HS stuff), or would approach it in a way that we as youth coaches would have no issue with. They aren't idiots - they're on here getting better, and the morons that would do what this guy did have no interest in getting better, they already know it all. And likewise the youth coaches on here aren't the idiot Friday Night Tykes coaches, those guys aren't online getting better because they already know everything. Amazing how similar the as*hole coaches at the youth and HS level are... And how similar the guys on here at both levels are. I'm pretty sure there would be a long line of HS coaches on this board who would react in a very similar fashion as 33coach does if the local college guy came in and demanded you run his stuff so he'd have some local kids to recruit. Heck - I think I'd know what most of your reactions would be if the AD, who IS your boss, demanded you run his offense. I've seen the threads, usually talking about your former position, LOL. Absolutely, and that was my point of posting this. He doesn't get that you can't just demand someone run your stuff. And if you want to ask, ask. But be respectful of someone else's program. Im preaching to the choir, I get that. We chose our offense very carefully based on the availability of material knowing I'd have inexperienced coaches. 1 clinic in the spring with their staff and a hand written playbook wasn't going to cut it when my running backs coach HAS NEVER COACHED running backs. We chose the wing T, because you can't go anywhere without running into detailed wing T information. |
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Post by rsmith627 on Feb 1, 2016 20:23:01 GMT -6
Here's the problem with this topic on this board - the coaches on here are not the ones we all have issues with, either the HS or the youth guys. My guess is that the HS coaches that are going to read and comment on a thread like this either HAVE full control over the MS program (meaning that coach works for them so of COURSE he'll run the HS stuff), or would approach it in a way that we as youth coaches would have no issue with. They aren't idiots - they're on here getting better, and the morons that would do what this guy did have no interest in getting better, they already know it all. And likewise the youth coaches on here aren't the idiot Friday Night Tykes coaches, those guys aren't online getting better because they already know everything. Amazing how similar the as*hole coaches at the youth and HS level are... And how similar the guys on here at both levels are. I'm pretty sure there would be a long line of HS coaches on this board who would react in a very similar fashion as 33coach does if the local college guy came in and demanded you run his stuff so he'd have some local kids to recruit. Heck - I think I'd know what most of your reactions would be if the AD, who IS your boss, demanded you run his offense. I've seen the threads, usually talking about your former position, LOL. Absolutely, and that was my point of posting this. He doesn't get that you can't just demand someone run your stuff. And if you want to ask, ask. But be respectful of someone else's program. Im preaching to the choir, I get that. We chose our offense very carefully based on the availability of material knowing I'd have inexperienced coaches. 1 clinic in the spring with their staff and a hand written playbook wasn't going to cut it when my running backs coach HAS NEVER COACHED running backs. We chose the wing T, because you can't go anywhere without running into detailed wing T information. That's rough. We do a youth camp with our little league where we run the camp, but we run the drills alongside the youth coaches so they can see how we do things, hear how we coach it etc. Coming in and demanding you run their chit isn't the way to go, but it's an even bigger non-starter in my mind if your coaches aren't experienced at all. |
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Post by rsmith627 on Feb 1, 2016 20:28:51 GMT -6
The other problem is sure the varsity can clinic you, but stuff happens in a game and you need to make quick adjustments.
You're screwed if you're getting a garbage defense nobody is prepared for and nobody knows how to make the right adjustments because you're running a system that you just don't know.
Ex: I used to be a flexbone guy. I can adjust for most anything I see. If suddenly I was told I had to run a pro-I, we would win a lot less
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Post by 33coach on Feb 1, 2016 20:31:16 GMT -6
The other problem is sure the varsity can clinic you, but stuff happens in a game and you need to make quick adjustments. You're screwed if you're getting a garbage defense nobody is prepared for and nobody knows how to make the right adjustments because you're running a system that you just don't know. Ex: I used to be a flexbone guy. I can adjust for most anything I see. If suddenly I was told I had to run a pro-I, we would win a lot less That's the argument my HC made after the meeting to me, "where will they be on Saturday at Halftime when we are facing some junk defense that we can't adjust for?" will they be there? Or will they be with their own team? |
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Post by CanyonCoach on Feb 1, 2016 20:46:39 GMT -6
I get to speak at a clinic about this topic.
As a member of the youth football board we went through a time consuming process.
1. What are the league rules A to Z above and beyond the rules of the game?
2. What things can we eliminate from the youth program based on those rules?
A. This included formations, motions, blocking schemes, defensive alignments etc..
3. What can we do that correlates with the rules?
4. What basic terms can we all use?
5. What drills can we use as a basis and build of off as athletes move through the program.
6. Finally when all the football specific discussion is over we figure out what we need to fully support the program financially. What level of fundraising is required. And where those funds will go.
We aren't a perennial power but the worm is slowly turning.
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Post by 33coach on Feb 1, 2016 20:50:04 GMT -6
I get to speak at a clinic about this topic. As a member of the youth football board we went through a time consuming process. 1. What are the league rules A to Z above and beyond the rules of the game? 2. What things can we eliminate from the youth program based on those rules? A. This included formations, motions, blocking schemes, defensive alignments etc.. 3. What can we do that correlates with the rules? 4. What basic terms can we all use? 5. What drills can we use as a basis and build of off as athletes move through the program. 6. Finally when all the football specific discussion is over we figure out what we need to fully support the program financially. What level of fundraising is required. And where those funds will go. We aren't a perennial power but the worm is slowly turning. Your a HS football coach who is on the youth football board? AWESOME! Way to be apart of the community and not just "the HS coach". |
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Post by CanyonCoach on Feb 1, 2016 21:19:14 GMT -6
We have made the youth board the booster club for all of the football program in our community. Really and truly a great group of men to work with to promote a great sport.
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Post by 33coach on Feb 1, 2016 21:21:29 GMT -6
We have made the youth board the booster club for all of the football program in our community. Really and truly a great group of men to work with to promote a great sport. That is a great idea! |
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Post by WingTheT on Feb 1, 2016 22:45:22 GMT -6
If it was me, I'd be offended and ready to fight...what was his reasoning that the wing t won't work? Did he use "the wing t is old fashioned and isn't flashy nor does anyone run it anymore" as his excuse??
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