pap1723
Sophomore Member
Posts: 137
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Post by pap1723 on Jan 3, 2016 8:46:09 GMT -6
I liked a play that Notre Dame ran. It looked like power read. But instead of the qb being the dive phase he shoveled it to the tight end underneath. It appears at 1:24:15 Damn! I came up with that same idea for a play two weeks ago watching a different bowl game! I thought I had finally created a new idea and here Notre Dame comes running it! Maybe that means it is a decent play, especially without a good running QB.
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Post by td4tc on Jan 3, 2016 9:06:15 GMT -6
I liked a play that Notre Dame ran. It looked like power read. But instead of the qb being the dive phase he shoveled it to the tight end underneath. It appears at 1:24:15 Posted by spreadattackyesterday at 9:14am That's nifty - wonder if he's really reading the DE for give? Maybe just give or shovel? I wondered the same thing? It does look like he's reading like inverted Veer and then comes off to shovel. Can't really envision QB ever keeping it here but he could follow the shovel guy as an extra puller. Kind of like "shovel pitch" idea Florida used to do with Tebow. Likely just give or shovel off the DE as you said. You can also do it the opposite way which we had success with this year. ie. fake jet or outside zone to the right and boot QB left to widen BSDE and reading that guy for shovel underneath to H in a G-H counter trey action. No one thinks the shovel is going to the second puller if you do counter trey a lot. Hope that makes sense. Wonder if those two plays are complimentary or not? In one you're reading PS DE for shovel/give and in the other BS DE for shovel/keep. Starting to like Shovel as an option play off counter trey stuff because its an easy pitch (could be done by multiple players eg wildcat guys, not just QB) and if you F it up it's just an incomplete pass. Also the DE is always expecting to be kicked out by the G (or first puller) and now he is being left unblocked with the first puller wrapping.
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Post by rsmith627 on Jan 3, 2016 10:08:36 GMT -6
I liked a play that Notre Dame ran. It looked like power read. But instead of the qb being the dive phase he shoveled it to the tight end underneath. It appears at 1:24:15 Posted by spreadattackyesterday at 9:14am That's nifty - wonder if he's really reading the DE for give? Maybe just give or shovel? I wondered the same thing? It does look like he's reading like inverted Veer and then comes off to shovel. Can't really envision QB ever keeping it here but he could follow the shovel guy as an extra puller. Kind of like "shovel pitch" idea Florida used to do with Tebow. Likely just give or shovel off the DE as you said. You can also do it the opposite way which we had success with this year. ie. fake jet or outside zone to the right and boot QB left to widen BSDE and reading that guy for shovel underneath to H in a G-H counter trey action. No one thinks the shovel is going to the second puller if you do counter trey a lot. Hope that makes sense. Wonder if those two plays are complimentary or not? In one you're reading PS DE for shovel/give and in the other BS DE for shovel/keep. Starting to like Shovel as an option play off counter trey stuff because its an easy pitch (could be done by multiple players eg wildcat guys, not just QB) and if you F it up it's just an incomplete pass. Also the DE is always expecting to be kicked out by the G (or first puller) and now he is being left unblocked with the first puller wrapping. We ran a variation of this last season and the read was the same as power read for us. I liked it because while our QB was a good runner, I wasn't too keen on sending him up the gut too often. He was more of a threat if he got to the edge as opposed to being a power runner.
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Post by s73 on Jan 3, 2016 10:14:54 GMT -6
I don't hate the spread, I dislike the fact it is becoming just about the only system of offense we see in the pros & collegiate football. There may only be 6 1000 yard rushers in the NFL this season (I know it's not much of a benchmark for a good runningback, but how many meh QBs will throw for 4,000 yards). The thing that astonishes me is when I was a kid growing up, the RB position was a glamour position right there (and in some cases above) the QB spot. I remember getting a magazine that had all the top RB's of the day in it (Walter, Marcus Allen, Eric Dickerson) now it seems like any back will do. That's how much the pro game has swung IMO. The RB position used to be a big pick in the draft, now it seems like you have your top 2-3 and the rest are an after thought. Not disparaging anything or anybody, just shocked how sweeping this has become across pro football is all. Those Bill Parcells and Joe Gibbs type coaches don't seem to exist much anymore. JMO.
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Post by larrymoe on Jan 3, 2016 10:31:06 GMT -6
I'll tell you something else that annoys me. Wide Receivers seem like they get up calling for pass interference on EVERY single pass play. Granted some plays there is PI. But I'm talking about on plays that aren't even close to being PI, they get up wanting a flag. It's like their go to reaction on every play. It's ridiculous. Wide receivers are ridiculous. Most narcissistic, whiny, self interested people on the field. And, unfortunately with chuck and duck teams, they're becoming even more of a focal point.
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Post by natenator on Jan 3, 2016 11:38:14 GMT -6
I don't hate the spread, I dislike the fact it is becoming just about the only system of offense we see in the pros & collegiate football. There may only be 6 1000 yard rushers in the NFL this season (I know it's not much of a benchmark for a good runningback, but how many meh QBs will throw for 4,000 yards). The thing that astonishes me is when I was a kid growing up, the RB position was a glamour position right there (and in some cases above) the QB spot. I remember getting a magazine that had all the top RB's of the day in it (Walter, Marcus Allen, Eric Dickerson) now it seems like any back will do. That's how much the pro game has swung IMO. The RB position used to be a big pick in the draft, now it seems like you have your top 2-3 and the rest are an after thought. Not disparaging anything or anybody, just shocked how sweeping this has become across pro football is all. Those Bill Parcells and Joe Gibbs type coaches don't seem to exist much anymore. JMO. Curious to hear a discussion on why we think that is true? Sire it could be just the evolution and ebb and flow of the game. Defenses do X to defend offensive Y, so offenses adjust to something that catches the defense off guard and force them to change. Rinse, wash, repeat. I actually think we will see a return to the old power run styles sometime soon. Defenses will have gone too far away from it to defend the spread game that a team will bring it back and start catching teams off guard because they haven't the personnel or player development to defend it. Everything old becomes new again
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2016 12:31:12 GMT -6
You can thank the pats, the old Broncos, especially the Broncos w/ shannahan.
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Post by td4tc on Jan 3, 2016 13:01:36 GMT -6
Posted by spreadattackyesterday at 9:14am That's nifty - wonder if he's really reading the DE for give? Maybe just give or shovel? I wondered the same thing? It does look like he's reading like inverted Veer and then comes off to shovel. Can't really envision QB ever keeping it here but he could follow the shovel guy as an extra puller. Kind of like "shovel pitch" idea Florida used to do with Tebow. Likely just give or shovel off the DE as you said. You can also do it the opposite way which we had success with this year. ie. fake jet or outside zone to the right and boot QB left to widen BSDE and reading that guy for shovel underneath to H in a G-H counter trey action. No one thinks the shovel is going to the second puller if you do counter trey a lot. Hope that makes sense. Wonder if those two plays are complimentary or not? In one you're reading PS DE for shovel/give and in the other BS DE for shovel/keep. Starting to like Shovel as an option play off counter trey stuff because its an easy pitch (could be done by multiple players eg wildcat guys, not just QB) and if you F it up it's just an incomplete pass. Also the DE is always expecting to be kicked out by the G (or first puller) and now he is being left unblocked with the first puller wrapping. We ran a variation of this last season and the read was the same as power read for us. I liked it because while our QB was a good runner, I wasn't too keen on sending him up the gut too often. He was more of a threat if he got to the edge as opposed to being a power runner. Tennesse just ran this successfully on the goal line. Exact same play. Didn't read the mesh. Just a fake. I think major teaching points are Qb can't go too deep but rather has to "widen" the read DE with speed and the faking RB has to MOVE FAST to outside to draw the whole D and set up blocks inside. AND the H back has to start a little deeper so his path is slightly downhill and tight to the box. Need to look to cut up as soon as he sees green or daylight and then be looking for shovel. The Tennesse Qb almost let the read DE play both
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Post by rsmith627 on Jan 3, 2016 13:28:39 GMT -6
We ran a variation of this last season and the read was the same as power read for us. I liked it because while our QB was a good runner, I wasn't too keen on sending him up the gut too often. He was more of a threat if he got to the edge as opposed to being a power runner. Tennesse just ran this successfully on the goal line. Exact same play. Didn't read the mesh. Just a fake. I think major teaching points are Qb can't go too deep but rather has to "widen" the read DE with speed and the faking RB has to MOVE FAST to outside to draw the whole D and set up blocks inside. AND the H back has to start a little deeper so his path is slightly downhill and tight to the box. Need to look to cut up as soon as he sees green or daylight and then be looking for shovel. The Tennesse Qb almost let the read DE play both Spot on. We tinkered with it in practice a bit but it was just too expensive when we were already efficiently running power read when all we needed was zone and a counter anyway. This batch of kids coming up is different so we will add some of these things to play to their strengths and probably going to need to do a little more in the run game.
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Post by s73 on Jan 3, 2016 13:28:47 GMT -6
We ran a variation of this last season and the read was the same as power read for us. I liked it because while our QB was a good runner, I wasn't too keen on sending him up the gut too often. He was more of a threat if he got to the edge as opposed to being a power runner. Tennesse just ran this successfully on the goal line. Exact same play. Didn't read the mesh. Just a fake. I think major teaching points are Qb can't go too deep but rather has to "widen" the read DE with speed and the faking RB has to MOVE FAST to outside to draw the whole D and set up blocks inside. AND the H back has to start a little deeper so his path is slightly downhill and tight to the box. Need to look to cut up as soon as he sees green or daylight and then be looking for shovel. The Tennesse Qb almost let the read DE play both Everyone seems to be saying this is new but didn't Tebow run this at Florida under Meyer? Or is it something different?
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Post by blb on Jan 3, 2016 13:32:37 GMT -6
Tennesse just ran this successfully on the goal line. Exact same play. Didn't read the mesh. Just a fake. I think major teaching points are Qb can't go too deep but rather has to "widen" the read DE with speed and the faking RB has to MOVE FAST to outside to draw the whole D and set up blocks inside. AND the H back has to start a little deeper so his path is slightly downhill and tight to the box. Need to look to cut up as soon as he sees green or daylight and then be looking for shovel. The Tennesse Qb almost let the read DE play both Everyone seems to be saying this is new but didn't Tebow run this at Florida under Meyer? Or is it something different?
A HS team ran that against us in '06 so can't be too "new."
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Post by fballcoachg on Jan 3, 2016 14:22:57 GMT -6
this thread really devolved in to a "I hate spread" thread. No it didn't. Suppose my reading comprehension needs work then, I wrongly interpreted football losing it's luster due to spread, boring spread, wanting to watch anything but spread, over done spread mania, teams going downhill since going spread, flopping WRs, bad QBs throwing for a bunch of yards when the poor RBs aren't getting enough carries etc as being comments directed at how much people don't like the spread....
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Post by fballcoachg on Jan 3, 2016 14:33:27 GMT -6
In bowl games (even though this year seemed to be less competitive) I like seeing teams I haven't seen play much or at all especially the non-blue bloods that may need to have some tweaks to compete. While the game wound up being a blow out I actually enjoyed the BG (who I had seen plenty of times) and GS game, two completely different methodologies, GS showed just how deadly an athlete at QBS can be. That many games gives a chance to see some kids I coached against playing as well so that's pretty cool. I also enjoy watching the trick plays and tweaks, the coaches that are pulling out some more stops than usual. Lastly, I like that you rarely can predict some of the lower level bowls that wind up being pretty darn good.
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Post by fballcoachg on Jan 3, 2016 14:38:26 GMT -6
Everyone seems to be saying this is new but didn't Tebow run this at Florida under Meyer? Or is it something different?
A HS team ran that against us in '06 so can't be too "new."
Did it work? IWhen I've seen it it's been boom or bust, either it hits and looks sweet or that shuffle/shovel gets lit up. it did catch my eye in the OSU/ND game though, I like it with the sweep look instead of speed option look
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Post by 33coach on Jan 3, 2016 14:39:06 GMT -6
Suppose my reading comprehension needs work then, I wrongly interpreted football losing it's luster due to spread, boring spread, wanting to watch anything but spread, over done spread mania, teams going downhill since going spread, flopping WRs, bad QBs throwing for a bunch of yards when the poor RBs aren't getting enough carries etc as being comments directed at how much people don't like the spread.... if people are getting tired of the spread, they should go watch other teams. SDSU Nebraska Michigan stanford The Academies G Tech hell SDSU had 2 backs go over 1000 yards this year.
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Post by wolverine55 on Jan 3, 2016 14:49:05 GMT -6
It always amazes me that a group of coaches--who should know better--automatically associate spread with "chuck and duck" style of football. Baylor is one of the most physical and run-oriented teams in college football.
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Post by blb on Jan 3, 2016 15:07:08 GMT -6
A HS team ran that against us in '06 so can't be too "new."
Did it work? IWhen I've seen it it's been boom or bust, either it hits and looks sweet or that shuffle/shovel gets lit up. it did catch my eye in the OSU/ND game though, I like it with the sweep look instead of speed option look
First time yes because we hadn't seen it.
Second time, after I had a chance to talk to kids about how to play it, no.
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Post by blb on Jan 3, 2016 15:09:55 GMT -6
It always amazes me that a group of coaches--who should know better--automatically associate spread with "chuck and duck" style of football. Baylor is one of the most physical and run-oriented teams in college football.
I don't think anybody mentioned Baylor specifically or said you couldn't run effectively from Spread formations.
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Post by 33coach on Jan 3, 2016 15:20:21 GMT -6
It always amazes me that a group of coaches--who should know better--automatically associate spread with "chuck and duck" style of football. Baylor is one of the most physical and run-oriented teams in college football. coaches should also be aware that "chuck and duck" isnt a style of offense.... it was a derogatory term for the run & shoot... coined by a coach during a press conference, which the news papers took off with. it doesnt get more "NFL bro" then using that term...
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Post by coachbdud on Jan 3, 2016 15:46:06 GMT -6
I liked a play that Notre Dame ran. It looked like power read. But instead of the qb being the dive phase he shoveled it to the tight end underneath. It appears at 1:24:15 Damn! I came up with that same idea for a play two weeks ago watching a different bowl game! I thought I had finally created a new idea and here Notre Dame comes running it! Maybe that means it is a decent play, especially without a good running QB. coach grabowski wrote about this play on his blog a year or two ago the idea was being able to run power read without a mobile QB, or without wanting to bang your QB up so you use the shovel to replace the dive phase same read, really cool play
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Post by coachbdud on Jan 3, 2016 15:49:42 GMT -6
Suppose my reading comprehension needs work then, I wrongly interpreted football losing it's luster due to spread, boring spread, wanting to watch anything but spread, over done spread mania, teams going downhill since going spread, flopping WRs, bad QBs throwing for a bunch of yards when the poor RBs aren't getting enough carries etc as being comments directed at how much people don't like the spread.... if people are getting tired of the spread, they should go watch other teams. SDSU Nebraska Michigan stanford The Academies G Tech hell SDSU had 2 backs go over 1000 yards this year. exactly Stanford is my favorite team to watch and not just because they are local You really dont see a ton of college spread teams who want to throw it 75x a game if you watch closely (especially the schools with mobile QBs) do some cool things that are not "finesse" the other day Clemson ran Down with their QB TE/T down blocked, PSG kicked a wide DE RB led through QB just caught the snap and took off, not wing t but a prominent wing t blocking scheme tweaked to fit their best player
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Post by td4tc on Jan 3, 2016 16:02:31 GMT -6
Being a gambler I was shocked by the number of "overs" and many of those blew away the number. With defences having a month to prepare I wrongly thought that there would be some low scoring affairs (plus bowl game jitters) but even teams with highly ranked D's often participated in shootouts. Why?? Is it more of a defensive advantage or offensive advantage (trick play packages) to have the extra prep time?? Lots of tricks a la Kevin Kelley where three guys touched the ball that went for BIG plays too.
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Post by coachbdud on Jan 3, 2016 16:05:05 GMT -6
a ton of reverse passes especially near the goal line
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Post by coachb23 on Jan 3, 2016 19:32:54 GMT -6
Being a gambler I was shocked by the number of "overs" and many of those blew away the number. With defences having a month to prepare I wrongly thought that there would be some low scoring affairs (plus bowl game jitters) but even teams with highly ranked D's often participated in shootouts. Why?? Is it more of a defensive advantage or offensive advantage (trick play packages) to have the extra prep time?? Lots of tricks a la Kevin Kelley where three guys touched the ball that went for BIG plays too. I think it's a conspiracy because everyone wants high-scoring affairs, few like seeing 14-7 defensive struggles anymore. I miss those days...
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Post by 33coach on Jan 3, 2016 19:59:38 GMT -6
Being a gambler I was shocked by the number of "overs" and many of those blew away the number. With defences having a month to prepare I wrongly thought that there would be some low scoring affairs (plus bowl game jitters) but even teams with highly ranked D's often participated in shootouts. Why?? Is it more of a defensive advantage or offensive advantage (trick play packages) to have the extra prep time?? Lots of tricks a la Kevin Kelley where three guys touched the ball that went for BIG plays too. I think it's a conspiracy because everyone wants high-scoring affairs, few like seeing 14-7 defensive struggles anymore. I miss those days... You might be on to something....and we should be careful speaking about it. The NCAA secretly restrcts the amount of practice a defensive unit can have to aid in high scoring games. They also decide the outcomes before the games. I have insider knowledge that some of the coaches at Oregon were beaten and fined for scoring so much on TCU yesterday, it wasn't in the plan.
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Post by td4tc on Jan 3, 2016 21:07:46 GMT -6
The other thing I noticed this year was that coaching seemed more relevant in these games as a factor compared to in season games. There were teams whose coaching situation was a mess (like Georgia) which is a whole other topic. Seems crazy that you can steal someone's coach. Maybe you should have to give up next years bowl bid if you STEAL someone else's coach prior to their bowl game?
But that aside, there are some coaches who just seem to do a great job of preparing their teams even when there is a little lack of true motivation (like teams who "settle" for a lesser bowl than they wanted). Their Bowl records reflect this eg Urban. This year there were teams who clearly weren't prepared for what got thrown at them. eg Baylor/UNC, Pitt. It got to the point where I was handicapping some games based on the coaches. We sometimes downplay our importance on here in play calling etc but I think in Bowl Games the best coaches shine even when the talent might not be equal.
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Post by 33coach on Jan 4, 2016 10:07:09 GMT -6
The other thing I noticed this year was that coaching seemed more relevant in these games as a factor compared to in season games. There were teams whose coaching situation was a mess (like Georgia) which is a whole other topic. Seems crazy that you can steal someone's coach. Maybe you should have to give up next years bowl bid if you STEAL someone else's coach prior to their bowl game? But that aside, there are some coaches who just seem to do a great job of preparing their teams even when there is a little lack of true motivation (like teams who "settle" for a lesser bowl than they wanted). Their Bowl records reflect this eg Urban. This year there were teams who clearly weren't prepared for what got thrown at them. eg Baylor/UNC, Pitt. It got to the point where I was handicapping some games based on the coaches. We sometimes downplay our importance on here in play calling etc but I think in Bowl Games the best coaches shine even when the talent might not be equal. its not the play calling, its the practice, preparation, and organization. if you look at some of those under athleted programs who are winning....i bet you will see some teams that practice better then most.
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