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Post by hemlock on Jan 17, 2008 19:27:19 GMT -6
Norm Chow's unceremonious dismissal as OC of the Titans has stimulated an interesting conversation. I would like to know how many of you council your potential recruits in regards to where they should go in order to receive the best coaching.
Particularly for QBs, I view this position as a craft. When I had a kid that I believed had the raw potential to be something special, I counciled him as to where he should go in order to become an elite QB. I did not take into consideration whether program was top 25 or not. These are the programs that I would recommend to a QB with the potential to develop into something special:
Texas Tech
New Mexico,
Hawai'i
Purdue
Kentucky
Arkansas
Michigan
BYU
Thoughts
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Post by brophy on Jan 17, 2008 19:43:26 GMT -6
Norm Chow's unceremonious dismissal as OC of the Titans has stimulated an interesting conversation. I would like to know how many of you council your potential recruits in regards to where they should go in order to receive the best coaching. Particularly for QBs, I view this position as a craft. When I had a kid that I believed had the raw potential to be something special, I counciled him as to where he should go in order to become an elite QB. I did not take into consideration whether program was top 25 or not. These are the programs that I would recommend to a QB with the potential to develop into something special: Texas Tech New Mexico, Hawai'i Purdue Kentucky Arkansas Michigan BYU Thoughts I am a confused by your post here. COUNSEL your quarterback because he is naturally the LEADER of your team (offense) and you mentor him more intimately than you would with your offensive guard? Create a special relationship in the off-season, developing his physical, mental, and emotional skills? Yes, I completely agree. The quarterback has got to be someone the coaches trust and who is willing to sacrifice for the team and set an example. Or try to direct a kid on what school he should think to get recruited by? If the latter, then I would have to disagree, because you can find a TON of great quarterbacks at the DIII, DII, and DI(AA) level. Program 'prestige' is meaningless to showcasing a quarterback's true skills (maybe not as much notoriety) What makes a kid an "elite" prospect? Only genetics? Even physically gifted athletes do not make good prospects. Programs won't make a quality quarterback (count the number of 1st round NFL quarterback busts). What makes a competent quarterback is leadership, toughness, mechanics, smarts, and athleticism. If there is a disconnect in any of the previous four, you are setting your team up for failure (hear me now, believe me later). councel isn't a word and council is a noun. |
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Post by tog on Jan 17, 2008 19:53:46 GMT -6
let's not be grammar nazi's here
back to the topic
i would try to just get a kid any kind of help to anywhere they want to go
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Post by hemlock on Jan 17, 2008 20:02:18 GMT -6
BROPHY - I meant the latter. Also, "council" (and pardon the typo) may also be used as a verb - i.e. "To council a person on a matter."
I apologize for a poorely formulated question. What I was trying to ask, is if you have a good prospect (mental and physical) do you advise him to go to a place where he is going to get good coaching. For example, if I had been Vince Young's coach or Michael Vick's coach I would never have advised them to go to the schools where they went. The coaching at that position is just not very good, particularly when compared to what other, albeit lesser known programs have to offer.
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Post by spreadattack on Jan 17, 2008 20:22:13 GMT -6
It's not a bad or silly question but I think it applies so rarely. There's only a few guys who can just look over the heads of the crowd and pick what they want. Now if you have a kid good enough to get a scholly at LSU, Florida, USC, etc (only a handful of guys with this kind of deal every year) then sure, the question is whether he ought to visit a couple lesser ranked schools where he might get excellent training.
Airman made a solid point that a D-1 coach's job is not to put you in the NFL, it is win titles. But if you're John Elway maybe you ought to think about where to go college so you can get to the NFL. John Elway in fact moved so he could go to a throwing HS, and Troy Aikman transferred to UCLA after breaking his leg running the wishbone at Oklahoma. Worked out for those guys.
The issue is, again, only a few Aikmans and Elways out there. Also, it seems to me that there is much to deciding where to play D-1 football besides who seems to have the best QB coaches. The school, the academics, the campus environment, etc all play a factor. Plus a reality of picking a "second-tier" school means that your coach might get fired. Kentucky is a good place to go if you're a QB, but their QB Coach Randy Sanders came in and rescued Andre Woodson and the team went from 3-8 (and the coach almost being fired) to 7-5 seasons and excellent QB coaching. Purdue is known for its excellent QB coaching but (a) the assistant coaches have had a lot of turnover (though Zaunbrecher is known for being a good QB coach having coached Pennington and Leftwich in college, not to mention his year in Florida with Sexy Rexy), but there are talks of removing Tiller. A young kid who spends five years with a program has to, to some extent, choose it on more than just that.
Also, and I don't know the background stories with Vick and VY, but a lot of the schools with great QB coaching don't necessarily recruit those guys to be their QBs. As good as he is, would Mike Leach have recruited Vick to be his QB? I saw where Pat White had a scholarship to Michigan as a DB, but WVU came in at the last minute and offered him a scholarship as a QB. Things are funny.
Just lots and lots of factors at play. I think it's tough for every kid to choose where to go to college and what to major in and all that, but it's really tough for D-1 level football players who get pulled in so many different directions. There's just a lot at play and I don't know what the proper set of criteria should be for these kids. I'd imagine it would vary from guy to guy.
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Post by spos21ram on Jan 17, 2008 20:52:39 GMT -6
"The coaching at that position is just not very good, particularly when compared to what other, albeit lesser known programs have to offer."
I don't think I agree with this. I don't think I would categorize any D1 QB coach as "not very good" because they wouldn't be there. Some are definitly better at others but I wouldn't say they arn't any good. Some specialize in certain areas and develop QB's to fit their program/offense.
I would say some QB's fit certain programs better than others though. Obviously Matt Ryan of BC wouldn't be a good fit in WVU's offense.
As to the quaestion in the thread. I would give some advice to where I think my QB would fit in best but I wouldn't make his decision for him.
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Post by Yash on Jan 17, 2008 22:45:28 GMT -6
I agree with Spos21ram here. They are D1 coaches for a reason. Last year when Major Applewhite was running Rice's offense, that was a great place to go as a QB because hes a great coach, But there are great coaches all over the place at the D1 level. That list of QB friendly coaching staffs you listed, none are a good fit for a Michael Vick or Vince young type player. what makes a great QB is a system that fits his talents. Jeff Tedford's system fits drop back passers, not zone read scramblers. I've never seen a D1 QB in high school yet. I would like to think that someday I might, but really how likely is it? Not very. I'll probably be lucky if I turn out a few D3 Qbs in my career.
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Post by spos21ram on Jan 18, 2008 0:39:09 GMT -6
To go along with the previous post. What's good for your QB may not be good for someone elses. Like Yash said if you have a Pat White type of QB he wouldn't fit into any of the schools you mentioned (except for Michigan now). So if you were to council your Qb you'd have to recommend programs that fit his talent.
Maybe I'm reading into it too much but by the teams you mentioned I get the feeling you don't think very highly of Option type QB's or take them seriously. Also, I think you're skipping over college and thinking straight to the NFL for your HS QB. Those schools you mentiones have offenses that are more NFL like.
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Post by ghscoach on Jan 18, 2008 6:00:22 GMT -6
I think you take Michigan off the list now. They will no longer employ a pro style drop back passing attack. Also Scott Loffler was not retained as the QB coach he is the main reason so many UM QB’s have gone on to play at the next level. Wherever he goes he will be a great asset to the program.
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Post by phantom on Jan 18, 2008 7:48:17 GMT -6
Norm Chow's unceremonious dismissal as OC of the Titans has stimulated an interesting conversation. I would like to know how many of you council your potential recruits in regards to where they should go in order to receive the best coaching. Particularly for QBs, I view this position as a craft. When I had a kid that I believed had the raw potential to be something special, I counciled him as to where he should go in order to become an elite QB. I did not take into consideration whether program was top 25 or not. These are the programs that I would recommend to a QB with the potential to develop into something special: Texas Tech New Mexico, Hawai'i Purdue Kentucky Arkansas Michigan BYU Thoughts I'm curious how you arrived at that list. I ask because there are only 9 QBs on NFL from those eight schools and almost half (4) came from the same school-Michigan. |
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Post by hemlock on Jan 18, 2008 8:01:49 GMT -6
I think part of the problem is the way NFL people go about evaluating QBs. The system label has to be removed from the equation. Yes, what Michigan used to do and what Arkansas, or is going to do with Petrino, or at BC with Jags and Steve Logan probably most resembles what a QB will run on Sundays; however, the coaching QBs get at Purdue, Tech, New Mexico State, and now at SMU is outstanding. Most impressive is the these programs tutor their QBs in front recognition, protection principles, and coverage identification. If I were a DIA prospect with a good head on my shoulders I would rather go to one of these schools rather than Texas, VTech, Ohio State, etc.
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Post by brophy on Jan 18, 2008 8:31:06 GMT -6
I am assuming that you are saying one should direct a prospect's decision on what school to attend based on how he will likely be utilitzed (not necessarily the quality of coaching he will receive).
Being instructed and developed as a complete quarterback is different than being used to be a superstar. They are not one-in-the-same.
Does the kid want to start right away, make a dramatic impact in his level of play (make a big splash), or receive quality coaching at the next level. I think you could find many to argue that neither of these elements are synonymous with one another.
If you want him to be developed to his maximum capacity, what would the end result be? To be the most complete product for the professional game?
Or is it to steer an athlete's decision based on how he will be utilized? Is this any different than influencing a receiver, linemen, running back on what school to attend based on the current OC / HC? It really has nothing to do with the actual COACHING, per se, just the style of play.
("don't go to Nebraska as a receiver, because it will hurt your chances of getting drafted")
("don't go to Texas Tech as a running back, because you will never get any touches.....")
In the overall picture, isn't this complete hyperbole, though?
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Post by thunder17 on Jan 18, 2008 8:35:51 GMT -6
1. System
2. Who is the coach?
3. When will they get the opportunity to play? Do they have a Qb that is going to leave early or do they have a Todd Reesing (Kansas) who has the job secured for the next 2 years with no option of leaving early?
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Post by hemlock on Jan 18, 2008 8:56:13 GMT -6
Brophy, I agree, but how a prospect will be utilized reflects the coaching he will receive and the skills that he will develop. The skills one learns under June Jones are different than those that one learns under Greg Davis at UT. If I'm a prospect and I want to really master the craft of quarterbacking, which BTW is how it should be presented, I would most definately want to play for a guy like Jones, Leach, Mumme, Zauenbrecher at Purdue, Petrino, etc. The overall profile of the program would never factor into the equation.
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Post by morris on Jan 18, 2008 9:06:21 GMT -6
Did Mumme and Leach change how they do things? They use to not teach the QB fronts. BYU under Chow use to not teach fronts. I am not 100% that they taught coverages. They looked for green grass. Chow said at one point the way his QB knew if it was Man or zone was if the back released.
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Post by fbdoc on Jan 18, 2008 9:19:12 GMT -6
Another question is it the coach, the kid, the "system" or somethign else? As an example, Jeff Tedford of Cal has a rep for developing good college QB's but then they struggle in the NFL. Is he a poor QB coach because his college QB's don't succeed in the NFL? Was Brett Favre's college coach a great QB coach because of all of the NFL records? Can anyone name Joe Montana's QB coach at Notre Dame? How about an easier one - who was Peyton Manning's QB coach at Tennesse?
If I have a HS kid who is a D-I talent, I'm going to do my best to NOT screw him up while I'm coaching him, and then try to help him pick a good college for his education as well as for football.
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Post by Yash on Jan 18, 2008 9:36:17 GMT -6
Well for manning, his QB coach was David Cutcliff, who was the reason Eli went to ole miss because he was head coach there at the time.
But going along with Dcohio, i've never been somewhere we had kids who were talented to play D1, usually its just D3 and if thats the case, you pick the college based on the college not on the football team.
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Post by spos21ram on Jan 18, 2008 10:06:56 GMT -6
"If I'm a prospect and I want to really master the craft of quarterbacking, which BTW is how it should be presented, I would most definately want to play for a guy like Jones, Leach, Mumme, Zauenbrecher at Purdue, Petrino, etc."
You're assuming the QB is a dropback passer. What if he was an option type quarterback that wanted to master the art od quarterbacking the option? If you had a player that could run and throw you wouldn't send him to FLA? Tebow accounts for like 70% of the offense.
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Post by wingt74 on Jan 18, 2008 10:09:38 GMT -6
I would first ask the kid what he wants to major in.
Then ask if he want to play football 1-6 hours away from home or 12+ hours away from home? or does it matter?
The answers to the first two questions could very well limit the kids options.
Then, I would talk about aspirations of making it to the NFL. If he is a great QB, he is going to get calls from the MUs, FSUs, and USCs of the world.
If he has size, strength to potentially be great, but isn't getting recruited by the big guns, then I think more importantly than the coach he'll be working with, are the players/conference he'll be in. Look at the last two classes. Are there OL and WRs getting PT? If your kid is coming into a situation with a couple of weak recruiting classes, he isn't going to get much of an opportunity to shine.
Coach? Yeah, you can pick the coach that is there. But, in 3-4 years, when your kid will hopefully become the unanimous fulltime starting QB, there will probably be a different coach anyway.
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Post by spreadattack on Jan 18, 2008 10:39:29 GMT -6
Yeah I mean the Q is if I am Vince Young where do I go? If my only pursuit in life is to make the NFL then I should pick the most NFL ready scheme and coaching. That does lead to the interesting discussion of who do we here on this board think are the best "preparers" for the NFL. Not in the specific, but more because of the scheme, coaching, etc. I mean, there is a practical reality to the NFL - take it or leave it. A Spread option QB can be a baller, lead you to titles, but is maybe less of a pro prospect. So you have to take that into account.
The second question is whether this is the ONLY factor in your decisionmaking process. I think it's one factor but it's not the only one. But it could lead to interesting distinctions of, say, picking TTech over Tennessee, etc.
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Post by dg1694 on Jan 18, 2008 11:05:04 GMT -6
BROPHY - I meant the latter. Also, "council" (and pardon the typo) may also be used as a verb - i.e. "To council a person on a matter." I apologize for a poorely formulated question. What I was trying to ask, is if you have a good prospect (mental and physical) do you advise him to go to a place where he is going to get good coaching. For example, if I had been Vince Young's coach or Michael Vick's coach I would never have advised them to go to the schools where they went. The coaching at that position is just not very good, particularly when compared to what other, albeit lesser known programs have to offer. Why would you, as a high school coach, have advised VY not to go to Texas? Because he wasn't going to win? Because they arent productive on offense? Because he won't get the chance to stay at QB? Because, because of poor coaching, he won't get drafted highly, and thus never be rookie of the year, or finally help get a bad team back to the playoffs? First off, Greg Davis is a very good QB coach. I've been around him more than just at the convention. One of my former teammates, who is now a surgeon, still calls him the best teacher he's ever had, regardless of subject matter. Basically, are you saying you won't advise a kid to go to unless it's going to do what -- not get him in the Hall of Fame? So you would rather him go to where -- Valdosta State? And where would he be now? Would his life be better? Isn't that the charge of a coach giving advice to a kid? |
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Post by fbdoc on Jan 18, 2008 13:01:54 GMT -6
Talking about the Mannings, yes David Cutcliffe was their QB coach. Were they great QB's because of the coaching? In spite of the coaching? Because of their gene pool? This is another one of those great "Discussion" questions with no real answer. Joe Montana's QB coach at Notre Dame, anybody?
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Post by Yash on Jan 18, 2008 13:12:03 GMT -6
I think that Eli picked Cutcliffe because of the positive experience that Peyton had with him. That also is a big thing with picking a college. You pick a college because the coach is a good guy and treats his players right. Petrino puts QBs in the NFL but he has some people who don't really like him too much as a person, and I think that says something. It depends what your goals are as a player. If your only goal is to make it to the NFL, first of all I think you better rethink your goals because its a very small percent that actually make it there. I"m not saying don't shoot for it, but you better get a good education at the same time because it doesn't work out for very many.
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Post by poweriguy on Jan 18, 2008 21:51:17 GMT -6
I would let the kid go where ever he felt was the right place for him. Then council him to fine tune his craft with someone like Darrin Slack during the off season.
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