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Post by hunhdisciple on Aug 19, 2015 23:01:10 GMT -6
In most years previous, our team has not had a wealth of talent at many spots, so we relied on a rotation to keep kids fresher and therefore get a little bit of an advantage on a team, we hoped. Some guys who wouldn't normally be looked to for minutes, would see time and attempt to contribute. This year, we have talent. And enough talent that just about every starter only plays 1 way, which is huge for a very small school who gets lost with the other city schools.
Because of this, there really is no need for a rotation. A kid (WR) who last year and a little bit the year before, saw time in spots to give people a break or when people got hurt, is now buried on the depth chart. And when I say buried, I mean to the Earth's core. There are two outstanding starters who are very well conditioned, who don't usually need a shot. We have a TE who will sub in for either one as we need it. Then there are probably 2 or 3 other people who would be ahead of him. He's started asking about rotations and when he'll get in. Luckily, we've only had a scrimmage, so I could just sort of delay the discussion because of that. You know, I wanted to get a good look at things, I wanted to see people that I hadn't seen before. Things like that.
But, the real season starts next week and he's going to ask me again. And I don't know how to put it clearly yet while not being King Jerk.
Here's the catch, or catches I guess: He's a senior, the only senior in the WR/TE group. He has seniority over everyone, technically. BUT! He's awful. He's undersized, slow and is a very average blocker and has below average hands. He's never had a varsity stat (No catches, scores, runs, anything) , despite seeing quite a few minutes in previous years due to injuries. He doesn't out work anybody, and can be a bit of a pain to deal with.
However, he isn't a bad kid. He doesn't really have anything else going for him, and doesn't really have an ounce of athletic ability. A friend of mine and I have always joked that he probably would have been better off joining the band, because he would have been able to contribute more that way. But, he's stuck it out and thinks of himself as a football player, and not just someone who is on the football team.
You all are much wiser and smarter than I am. What do I say to this kid? Do I just put it out there? Do I email him the depth chart and let him see for himself? Or do I just keep deferring it and hope he gets it eventually? Or do I just ignore him? Or do I tell him that all playing time decisions are to be discussed with the head coach not during a game? Or do I ask him who he honestly thinks he is better than, and wait for him to realize?
Like I said, I don't want to hurt his feelings. But I also don't want to have a little lost puppy following me around on the sidelines, hoping for someone to get tired, and then their backup to get tired, and then that backup to get tired, so he can go in.
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Post by blitzology on Aug 19, 2015 23:26:04 GMT -6
I would talk to him. Being upfront and honest with a player is always best.
"The best players play. Right now the coaches evaluation is that there are players who are performing at a higher level than you. If you want to play, you need to show that you are better than those other guys. We are evaluating you on discipline (doing the right thing) and production (making a play). If the discipline and production are there you can move up the depth chart. You will have a role on the team. Excel within your roll and we will expand your roll. If you are only getting a handful of plays in a game or practice you must make them great plays. If you are disciplined and productive on those limited plays you will get more plays."
We really emphasize the concept of disciplined and productive. Some players think they should play because they are in the right place every time. That is true if and only if they are making plays when they are there. Other players will make a splashy play or two but miss assignments on their other plays. You have to be both disciplined and productive to play.
If that doesn't work, we always turn to film. Show him clips of missed assignments or lack of production (poor block, dropped ball, etc.) and explain that he must make those plays to get more playing time. Some players only remember their good plays and need to be reminded of their shortcomings. If his response is well So & So other WR drops passes too. Remind him that he is senior. There are higher expectations for players who have been in the program. A tie goes to the younger player. It is up to older players to leave no doubt that they are the best player and are on top the depth chart.
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ndcoach
Sophomore Member
Posts: 135
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Post by ndcoach on Aug 19, 2015 23:35:23 GMT -6
Just put it out there for him, treat him like a man, and tell him how it is. I'd have him come into the office so it is done in private, no need to do it in front of his team mates. I'd have other coaches in with me so there is no twisting of words later on. The just explain to him like you did here. Here is where you are on the depth chart, there are two or three other people ahead of you. This year we are not doing rotations like we have in the past because of the depth we have this year. If you are thinner at another position where he might be able to spot play maybe mention that to him and see if he wants to switch. That is how we would do it. You don't have to be cruel about it, but it's much better to just lay it out there and be upfront. It is not the most pleasant thing in the world, but it has to be done sometimes.
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Post by natenator on Aug 20, 2015 4:42:57 GMT -6
Why can't you get him reps on offense?
Put him on one side and throw to the other. If he asks why he's not getting passes then you can simply fall on the QB saying it's his call (read as to where the ball goes).
Can someone spend some time with him to making him into a great blocking receiver (despite being undersized)? If so, that could end up being far more valuable than someone who can catch depending on type of offense you run.
Can you put him at TE and run away from him?
There are always LOTS of ways to get weaker offensive players reps compared to defensive players.
My feeling is if this kid has helped you get by in the lean times even just as a body then you owe it to him a bit to give him some reps every game.
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Post by fantom on Aug 20, 2015 6:16:13 GMT -6
In most years previous, our team has not had a wealth of talent at many spots, so we relied on a rotation to keep kids fresher and therefore get a little bit of an advantage on a team, we hoped. Some guys who wouldn't normally be looked to for minutes, would see time and attempt to contribute. This year, we have talent. And enough talent that just about every starter only plays 1 way, which is huge for a very small school who gets lost with the other city schools. Because of this, there really is no need for a rotation. A kid (WR) who last year and a little bit the year before, saw time in spots to give people a break or when people got hurt, is now buried on the depth chart. And when I say buried, I mean to the Earth's core. There are two outstanding starters who are very well conditioned, who don't usually need a shot. We have a TE who will sub in for either one as we need it. Then there are probably 2 or 3 other people who would be ahead of him. He's started asking about rotations and when he'll get in. Luckily, we've only had a scrimmage, so I could just sort of delay the discussion because of that. You know, I wanted to get a good look at things, I wanted to see people that I hadn't seen before. Things like that. But, the real season starts next week and he's going to ask me again. And I don't know how to put it clearly yet while not being King Jerk. Here's the catch, or catches I guess: He's a senior, the only senior in the WR/TE group. He has seniority over everyone, technically. BUT! He's awful. He's undersized, slow and is a very average blocker and has below average hands. He's never had a varsity stat (No catches, scores, runs, anything) , despite seeing quite a few minutes in previous years due to injuries. He doesn't out work anybody, and can be a bit of a pain to deal with. However, he isn't a bad kid. He doesn't really have anything else going for him, and doesn't really have an ounce of athletic ability. A friend of mine and I have always joked that he probably would have been better off joining the band, because he would have been able to contribute more that way. But, he's stuck it out and thinks of himself as a football player, and not just someone who is on the football team. You all are much wiser and smarter than I am. What do I say to this kid? Do I just put it out there? Do I email him the depth chart and let him see for himself? Or do I just keep deferring it and hope he gets it eventually? Or do I just ignore him? Or do I tell him that all playing time decisions are to be discussed with the head coach not during a game? Or do I ask him who he honestly thinks he is better than, and wait for him to realize? Like I said, I don't want to hurt his feelings. But I also don't want to have a little lost puppy following me around on the sidelines, hoping for someone to get tired, and then their backup to get tired, and then that backup to get tired, so he can go in. The best way to tell him is to come out and tell him. You're not doing anybody any favors by skirting the issue. It ain't a union shop, there's no seniority. In my experience, if you gave them a fair shot, kids deep down know the truth. As a college player I got benched for Parents' Week. I got to spend the whole game watching from the bench in front of my family because nobody told me. It was embarrassing. That's when I decided that I was going to be up front with everybody and call them in and tell them if their playing status changed. . In the long run it's kinder. |
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Post by fcboiler87 on Aug 20, 2015 7:04:51 GMT -6
You have to be up front with them. I had a similar situation unfold this past week. It was a senior kid who I really kind of figured just wouldn't cut it. He thought he should be the starter and did okay in practice versus some of the scout competition. We all knew once we got into live action he'd get burned (cornerback). Sure enough it happened. Repeatedly. At that point we had good video evidence as to his abilities or lack there of. I told him, "son, you're just too slow." You try hard but at the end of the day this kid keeps his man in front of him and can make up for mistakes with speed. You can't. It's not the nicest thing in the world, but I was up front with him. We'll try to use him on special teams and maybe rotate at a WR spot but he just doesn't need to be on the field much.
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Post by Wingtman on Aug 20, 2015 7:31:09 GMT -6
Does he/did he show up all summer? Is he a good kid in the classroom? As a senior if the answer is yes, we find a spot somewhere for that kid. That spot may be on KR or Punt team, but we get the kid on the field. I fully believe the best 11 play 95% of the time, but "program kids" (kids who buy in, do everything thats asked) find their way on the field some how.
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Post by hunhdisciple on Aug 20, 2015 7:42:23 GMT -6
Why can't you get him reps on offense? Put him on one side and throw to the other. If he asks why he's not getting passes then you can simply fall on the QB saying it's his call (read as to where the ball goes). Can someone spend some time with him to making him into a great blocking receiver (despite being undersized)? If so, that could end up being far more valuable than someone who can catch depending on type of offense you run. Can you put him at TE and run away from him? There are always LOTS of ways to get weaker offensive players reps compared to defensive players. My feeling is if this kid has helped you get by in the lean times even just as a body then you owe it to him a bit to give him some reps every game. Last year, for example, 2 of the guys were ahead of him but got hurt, so he moved up quickly. The catch is that he's always been buried on the depth chart, we've just had major stamina and health problems. Last year, when those 2 people were healthy, they replaced him, he didn't really notice because he was used to playing in the 5 previous games before they came back. If he was TE, I'd feel guilty putting him out there because his size would pose a health risk. I wouldn't be putting him in a position to be successful, I'd be putting him out there to be slaughtered. Once we start pulling away in a game, I'll gladly put him in, but I need him to know that it won't be before that. |
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Post by hunhdisciple on Aug 20, 2015 7:48:56 GMT -6
Does he/did he show up all summer? Is he a good kid in the classroom? As a senior if the answer is yes, we find a spot somewhere for that kid. That spot may be on KR or Punt team, but we get the kid on the field. I fully believe the best 11 play 95% of the time, but "program kids" (kids who buy in, do everything thats asked) find their way on the field some how. He showed up when it was convenient during the summer and is a average to poor student. I don't really get into playing kids who are better in the classroom, because we don't have very many smart kids. I know he is the holder for PAT and FG, but I think that's just about the only place where he is #1. He's made it an easy choice, because he hasn't outworked anyone at all. I should have included that in my original post, and that's my bad for not. But yeah, if he didn't have to be there, he didn't put in a huge effort to make it there. |
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Post by coachrdc on Aug 20, 2015 8:50:39 GMT -6
I've had to have this conversation with guys several times. As others have said, "best player plays." Sometimes its fair, sometimes its not, but hey, that's life.
I am fortunate that I can share with these kind of guys that there are other ways to contribute to the team. I "played" 4 years of DIII ball and was a 4 year scout teamer because I just wasn't good enough. I emphasize to kids in this position that I have been there and done that and the decision is simple: be petty and angry about your situation and have a poor attitude or quit, or show some maturity and leadership and understand that you are a part of something bigger than yourself. Probably the most rewarding moment in a bad coaching situation was when one of these kids came to me and tearfully promised me he'd stick it out and he did. I was damn proud to shake his hand on Senior night.
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Post by shocktroop34 on Aug 20, 2015 9:19:24 GMT -6
If you need to, use film. If he's as bad as you described, you should be able to validate and communicate your thoughts to him by clearly showing him his deficiencies on tape.
Tape a practice or the next scrimmage and go from there.
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Post by Wingtman on Aug 20, 2015 10:07:47 GMT -6
Does he/did he show up all summer? Is he a good kid in the classroom? As a senior if the answer is yes, we find a spot somewhere for that kid. That spot may be on KR or Punt team, but we get the kid on the field. I fully believe the best 11 play 95% of the time, but "program kids" (kids who buy in, do everything thats asked) find their way on the field some how. He showed up when it was convenient during the summer and is a average to poor student. I don't really get into playing kids who are better in the classroom, because we don't have very many smart kids. I know he is the holder for PAT and FG, but I think that's just about the only place where he is #1. He's made it an easy choice, because he hasn't outworked anyone at all. I should have included that in my original post, and that's my bad for not. But yeah, if he didn't have to be there, he didn't put in a huge effort to make it there. Well then, you play him when its convenient for you. I should add, by good in the classroom, I dont care if a kid gets A's or C's. Is he respectful to teachers, not a behavior problem. |
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Post by jasper912 on Aug 20, 2015 12:51:04 GMT -6
Similar situation for us. Have a kid that is a JR. He is a great kid, and decent work ethic. Decent athlete, but just not near as good as the people in front of him on the depth chart. Here is my kicker, his mom does A LOT for us in the booster club.
Luckily, I'm the OC and we are a running team. I plan (not sure if it will happen) but I plan to rotate him in 5-8 plays per game. Mainly let him carry the play in and then run to the opposite side of him. If we are going to throw the ball then there is no way he will be in the game.
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Post by coachorm on Aug 20, 2015 13:30:07 GMT -6
Have a similar situation this year. We have a DLineman that played a lot last year as a junior because we had 19kids dressed for most games due to injuries. This year we have 50 kids on the team and he is no where near the top of the depth chart.
My suggestion is be up front like others have said if he ask you. Tell him he isnt rotating or playing because he just inst the best player or first sub at that position. More than likely he knows and just wants to hear that from you.
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Post by 33coach on Aug 20, 2015 13:50:38 GMT -6
In most years previous, our team has not had a wealth of talent at many spots, so we relied on a rotation to keep kids fresher and therefore get a little bit of an advantage on a team, we hoped. Some guys who wouldn't normally be looked to for minutes, would see time and attempt to contribute. This year, we have talent. And enough talent that just about every starter only plays 1 way, which is huge for a very small school who gets lost with the other city schools. Because of this, there really is no need for a rotation. A kid (WR) who last year and a little bit the year before, saw time in spots to give people a break or when people got hurt, is now buried on the depth chart. And when I say buried, I mean to the Earth's core. There are two outstanding starters who are very well conditioned, who don't usually need a shot. We have a TE who will sub in for either one as we need it. Then there are probably 2 or 3 other people who would be ahead of him. He's started asking about rotations and when he'll get in. Luckily, we've only had a scrimmage, so I could just sort of delay the discussion because of that. You know, I wanted to get a good look at things, I wanted to see people that I hadn't seen before. Things like that. But, the real season starts next week and he's going to ask me again. And I don't know how to put it clearly yet while not being King Jerk. Here's the catch, or catches I guess: He's a senior, the only senior in the WR/TE group. He has seniority over everyone, technically. BUT! He's awful. He's undersized, slow and is a very average blocker and has below average hands. He's never had a varsity stat (No catches, scores, runs, anything) , despite seeing quite a few minutes in previous years due to injuries. He doesn't out work anybody, and can be a bit of a pain to deal with. However, he isn't a bad kid. He doesn't really have anything else going for him, and doesn't really have an ounce of athletic ability. A friend of mine and I have always joked that he probably would have been better off joining the band, because he would have been able to contribute more that way. But, he's stuck it out and thinks of himself as a football player, and not just someone who is on the football team. You all are much wiser and smarter than I am. What do I say to this kid? Do I just put it out there? Do I email him the depth chart and let him see for himself? Or do I just keep deferring it and hope he gets it eventually? Or do I just ignore him? Or do I tell him that all playing time decisions are to be discussed with the head coach not during a game? Or do I ask him who he honestly thinks he is better than, and wait for him to realize? Like I said, I don't want to hurt his feelings. But I also don't want to have a little lost puppy following me around on the sidelines, hoping for someone to get tired, and then their backup to get tired, and then that backup to get tired, so he can go in. He's a senior. And yall havnt developed hand speed and blocking skills and size? Not to be a d!ck but.....That says more about your program then it does him |
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Post by dubber on Aug 20, 2015 17:02:52 GMT -6
In most years previous, our team has not had a wealth of talent at many spots, so we relied on a rotation to keep kids fresher and therefore get a little bit of an advantage on a team, we hoped. Some guys who wouldn't normally be looked to for minutes, would see time and attempt to contribute. This year, we have talent. And enough talent that just about every starter only plays 1 way, which is huge for a very small school who gets lost with the other city schools. Because of this, there really is no need for a rotation. A kid (WR) who last year and a little bit the year before, saw time in spots to give people a break or when people got hurt, is now buried on the depth chart. And when I say buried, I mean to the Earth's core. There are two outstanding starters who are very well conditioned, who don't usually need a shot. We have a TE who will sub in for either one as we need it. Then there are probably 2 or 3 other people who would be ahead of him. He's started asking about rotations and when he'll get in. Luckily, we've only had a scrimmage, so I could just sort of delay the discussion because of that. You know, I wanted to get a good look at things, I wanted to see people that I hadn't seen before. Things like that. But, the real season starts next week and he's going to ask me again. And I don't know how to put it clearly yet while not being King Jerk. Here's the catch, or catches I guess: He's a senior, the only senior in the WR/TE group. He has seniority over everyone, technically. BUT! He's awful. He's undersized, slow and is a very average blocker and has below average hands. He's never had a varsity stat (No catches, scores, runs, anything) , despite seeing quite a few minutes in previous years due to injuries. He doesn't out work anybody, and can be a bit of a pain to deal with. However, he isn't a bad kid. He doesn't really have anything else going for him, and doesn't really have an ounce of athletic ability. A friend of mine and I have always joked that he probably would have been better off joining the band, because he would have been able to contribute more that way. But, he's stuck it out and thinks of himself as a football player, and not just someone who is on the football team. You all are much wiser and smarter than I am. What do I say to this kid? Do I just put it out there? Do I email him the depth chart and let him see for himself? Or do I just keep deferring it and hope he gets it eventually? Or do I just ignore him? Or do I tell him that all playing time decisions are to be discussed with the head coach not during a game? Or do I ask him who he honestly thinks he is better than, and wait for him to realize? Like I said, I don't want to hurt his feelings. But I also don't want to have a little lost puppy following me around on the sidelines, hoping for someone to get tired, and then their backup to get tired, and then that backup to get tired, so he can go in. He's a senior. And yall havnt developed hand speed and blocking skills and size? Not to be a d!ck but.....That says more about your program then it does him
You've never had "that kid"?
I wouldn't jump to conclusions about how a team is ran just because they have a senior who isn't good enough to start.
I would venture if that's the criteria, everyone on this board runs a bad program.
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Post by 33coach on Aug 20, 2015 17:08:44 GMT -6
He's a senior. And yall havnt developed hand speed and blocking skills and size? Not to be a d!ck but.....That says more about your program then it does him
You've never had "that kid"?
I wouldn't jump to conclusions about how a team is ran just because they have a senior who isn't good enough to start.
I would venture if that's the criteria, everyone on this board runs a bad program.
I've had those kids, but we have always had those kids contribute in some way. Even if the kid can do nothing but run shallow routes, that's what he would do for us. Every player is good at SOMETHING. Its our jobs as coaches to find it, sharpen it and utilize it. Especially if you have had 3.5 years with the kid on a small squad. |
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Post by dubber on Aug 20, 2015 17:09:40 GMT -6
Echoing others.....
Let him know:
1.) He is behind the other kids.
2.) He is important to the program.
I get it, we all get soft spots for certain kids, and sometimes it makes this conversation hard, but in the words of fantom, it is less cruel to just get it over with than to let it handle itself.
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Post by fantom on Aug 20, 2015 19:53:37 GMT -6
You've never had "that kid"?
I wouldn't jump to conclusions about how a team is ran just because they have a senior who isn't good enough to start.
I would venture if that's the criteria, everyone on this board runs a bad program.
I've had those kids, but we have always had those kids contribute in some way. Even if the kid can do nothing but run shallow routes, that's what he would do for us. Every player is good at SOMETHING. Its our jobs as coaches to find it, sharpen it and utilize it. Especially if you have had 3.5 years with the kid on a small squad. Trouble is sometimes the thing that a kid is good at isn't football. |
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Post by 33coach on Aug 20, 2015 22:01:17 GMT -6
I've had those kids, but we have always had those kids contribute in some way. Even if the kid can do nothing but run shallow routes, that's what he would do for us. Every player is good at SOMETHING. Its our jobs as coaches to find it, sharpen it and utilize it. Especially if you have had 3.5 years with the kid on a small squad. Trouble is sometimes the thing that a kid is good at isn't football. I am lucky enough that I have never had that. I've found ways for even the softest and slowest of cupcakes to contribute. But I understand my softest and slowest may be better then yours |
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Post by fantom on Aug 20, 2015 22:05:44 GMT -6
Trouble is sometimes the thing that a kid is good at isn't football. I am lucky enough that I have never had that. I've found ways for even the softest and slowest of cupcakes to contribute. But I understand my softest and slowest may be better then yours Maybe not. |
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Post by hunhdisciple on Aug 20, 2015 22:29:30 GMT -6
In most years previous, our team has not had a wealth of talent at many spots, so we relied on a rotation to keep kids fresher and therefore get a little bit of an advantage on a team, we hoped. Some guys who wouldn't normally be looked to for minutes, would see time and attempt to contribute. This year, we have talent. And enough talent that just about every starter only plays 1 way, which is huge for a very small school who gets lost with the other city schools. Because of this, there really is no need for a rotation. A kid (WR) who last year and a little bit the year before, saw time in spots to give people a break or when people got hurt, is now buried on the depth chart. And when I say buried, I mean to the Earth's core. There are two outstanding starters who are very well conditioned, who don't usually need a shot. We have a TE who will sub in for either one as we need it. Then there are probably 2 or 3 other people who would be ahead of him. He's started asking about rotations and when he'll get in. Luckily, we've only had a scrimmage, so I could just sort of delay the discussion because of that. You know, I wanted to get a good look at things, I wanted to see people that I hadn't seen before. Things like that. But, the real season starts next week and he's going to ask me again. And I don't know how to put it clearly yet while not being King Jerk. Here's the catch, or catches I guess: He's a senior, the only senior in the WR/TE group. He has seniority over everyone, technically. BUT! He's awful. He's undersized, slow and is a very average blocker and has below average hands. He's never had a varsity stat (No catches, scores, runs, anything) , despite seeing quite a few minutes in previous years due to injuries. He doesn't out work anybody, and can be a bit of a pain to deal with. However, he isn't a bad kid. He doesn't really have anything else going for him, and doesn't really have an ounce of athletic ability. A friend of mine and I have always joked that he probably would have been better off joining the band, because he would have been able to contribute more that way. But, he's stuck it out and thinks of himself as a football player, and not just someone who is on the football team. You all are much wiser and smarter than I am. What do I say to this kid? Do I just put it out there? Do I email him the depth chart and let him see for himself? Or do I just keep deferring it and hope he gets it eventually? Or do I just ignore him? Or do I tell him that all playing time decisions are to be discussed with the head coach not during a game? Or do I ask him who he honestly thinks he is better than, and wait for him to realize? Like I said, I don't want to hurt his feelings. But I also don't want to have a little lost puppy following me around on the sidelines, hoping for someone to get tired, and then their backup to get tired, and then that backup to get tired, so he can go in. He's a senior. And yall havnt developed hand speed and blocking skills and size? Not to be a d!ck but.....That says more about your program then it does him It says more about his genetics and work ethic. Mostly his genetics. Honestly, he's not a football player. He really should have been in band. Because he can't really do much of anything physically aggressive. EDIT: And I feel like I should clarify that this kid is 120 lbs and roughly 5'6". His thighs are only slightly larger than my wrist. We've made him into the best he can be, and it hasn't really been easy. The difference between his first year and this year are miles apart. |
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Post by coachphillip on Aug 28, 2015 8:19:21 GMT -6
You owe it to every other kid on your team to play the best players to maximize their chances of winning. That's the basis for "best players play". The kids work too hard to have it get blown because a coach doesn't play the best available player. As long as you frame everything as trying to optimize the likelihood of success for the TEAM, this kid will understand. If he doesn't, then the team is better off for not having him around. Especially considering the whole "he only showed up when it was convenient" bit.
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