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Post by aztec on Dec 4, 2007 8:52:46 GMT -6
Tired of his prolific passer being labeled a so-called "system quarterback," Hawaii coach June Jones on Monday pointed to another star quarterback running a system: Florida's Tim Tebow. Jones said the key difference, however, is that his record-breaking quarterback, Colt Brennan, runs an NFL-style offense while Tebow runs a "college system." "My quarterback has been labeled a 'system quarterback'...
It brings me to this point, aren't all college QB's and or players system guys? Isn't that your job as a college coach to go out and find the guys that best fit your system? To me this seems like a generalization by the media to underscore the accomplishments of players and coaches. Nebraska had a system when Osborne was the HC, the option. June Jones is a Run and Shoot guy, Urban Meyer has is gun spread, West Virgina runs their stuff, USC is runs a more traditional offense. Each school has found guys for their system. Too bad the media wants to make them out to be something less than what they are by labeling them.
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Post by brophy on Dec 4, 2007 9:03:09 GMT -6
JaMarcus Russell, Josh Heupel, Matt Mauck, Major Applewhite, Tommy Chiang, Nate Hybl, Jason White, Alex Smith, David Carr, etc.....
I agree with Jones' assessment, though. So long as he is a running threat first, voters are mesmerized.
Were Steve Young & Jim McMahon "system" guys at BYU?
That "system" didn't stop Ty Detmer from winning the Heisman.
That being said, Daniel, Reesing, and Brennan, while important, don't strike me as MVP's (Heisman) material.
I would take a McFadden, Hester, Slaton, Dixon over any of those guys..............and a healthy Glenn Dorsey trumps all of these guys
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Post by theprez98 on Dec 4, 2007 9:16:53 GMT -6
Why wouldn't any coach want a system in which the backup can play and have the same stats as the starter? This is IDEAL! Unfortunately, this seems to devalue the individual player. Who cares? This is a team game.
I'd rather have a Tyler Graunke come in and throw for 358 yards and 2 TDs then a Brady Leaf!
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Post by superpower on Dec 4, 2007 9:39:33 GMT -6
We ran for 4000+ yards this season but not one of our linemen was recognized as all-league. One of the knocks on them is that because we run the DW, they don't have to be good blocking by themselves.
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Post by wingt74 on Dec 4, 2007 9:46:14 GMT -6
We ran for 4000+ yards this season but not one of our linemen was recognized as all-league. One of the knocks on them is that because we run the DW, they don't have to be good blocking by themselves. WOW!!!! that is just crazy. Systems have nothing to do with it. Take an an average QB. Give him WRs that are better athletes than the DBs and an OLine that can pass block. Suddenly, you have a superstar at QB. It's pretty simple. It's why Matt Leinert fell so far. Now do the opposite Have a really good...if not great QB. Put him on a team with average talent. He gets average to above average #s. That explains Tom Brady, Brett Favre, and any other QB that was drafted low but had a good to great career. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 4, 2007 9:46:42 GMT -6
I think being labeled a "system" guy is VERY accurate when evaluating STATISTICS (so unfortunately superpower, I would argue that your leagues coaches have a valid argument. Not right or wrong, but an argument).
How many of Brennan's completions and yards would be RUSHING yards in a different "system". How many of Brennan's completions were throws that most of our H.S. kids could make, with the yards resulting from players being players in space? I don't the answers, but the more pieces involved in the machine, the more "system" labels you will get.
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Post by wingt74 on Dec 4, 2007 9:48:01 GMT -6
oh, the one thing you can never forget when a QB makes a leap from college to the pros. The $$$$ and how the $$$$ suddenly makes him work less.
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Post by spos21ram on Dec 4, 2007 9:51:51 GMT -6
I think being labeled a "system" guy is VERY accurate when evaluating STATISTICS (so unfortunately superpower, I would argue that your leagues coaches have a valid argument. Not right or wrong, but an argument). How many of Brennan's completions and yards would be RUSHING yards in a different "system". How many of Brennan's completions were throws that most of our H.S. kids could make, with the yards resulting from players being players in space? I don't the answers, but the more pieces involved in the machine, the more "system" labels you will get. So Tom Brady must be a system QB since most of his throws are 10 yards or less and he racks up yardage by YAC. |
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Post by theprez98 on Dec 4, 2007 9:58:41 GMT -6
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 4, 2007 10:00:27 GMT -6
As i said, when evaluating STATISTICS, YES. And you pretty much made my point. Tom Brady '07 is not that drastically a different football player than Tom Brady '06 is he? But just comparing the numbers, you would say 07 is CLEARLY a MUCH better football player than 06 right? That "better" is attributed to the system.
However, I don't think the argument works as well with NFL qb's anyway, because the most important attribute in an NFL quarterback is speed of recognition and decision making.
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Post by knighter on Dec 4, 2007 10:03:51 GMT -6
coachd-
i respectfully disagree. if a team rushes for 4000+ yards on a season the offensive line, regardless of how they are blocking, has got to be good. having worked with superpower's o-line during camp I think the opposing coaches are all smoking something...
To "label" a player as a "system" kid is wrong. Was Joe Montana a "system qb"? Yes, and yet he is considered by many to be the best ever...Is Manning now a "system" qb? Yes, and he may be the best of all time before it is all said and done.
If the system is good, players are going to have success, isn't that the point of football? My "scheme/system" is better than yours, so we won the game? My players executed "our system" better than your executed theirs so we win or vice versa?
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Post by brophy on Dec 4, 2007 10:07:09 GMT -6
well we are inferring a lot here, though.
do STATISTICS = worth?
I don't believe so, but I'm sure there are many that do.
Ron Dayne was, at one point, the "greatest NCAA rusher of all time" (statistically). I don't think Ron Dayne was even a hiccup in the history of NCAA football let alone a decent running back (same with Cedric Benson).
Also, in dealing with "all-league" selections, I have seen guys argue that their (air raid) QB HAS to be 1st team because he threw for 4,000 yards. But defending that kid was nothing.....the Power-I QB who threw for 1,300 yards was 3x the QB (tough leader with size) this kid was and much tougher to defend......but when you justify everything by numbers, you are only seeing a fraction of the game.
What makes a QB (or DL, or WR, or LB, etc) a "player"? Is it the stats or how he performs?
Is the guy just a tool, a delivery method of scheme, or is he a play-maker?
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Post by knighter on Dec 4, 2007 10:27:21 GMT -6
STATS do not = worth...I am a bottom line guy...wins = worth.
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Post by brophy on Dec 4, 2007 10:33:42 GMT -6
STATS do not = worth...I am a bottom line guy...wins = worth. are wins dependent on ONE guy, or is it a team thing? Can 11 guys be world-beaters together, but turds individually? If a guy is a great player, but the rest of the team sucks, should that kid not get props? (Jay Cutler) |
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Post by knighter on Dec 4, 2007 11:19:23 GMT -6
Think no further than Troy Davis at Iowa State
2 times he went over 2,000 yards rushing and did not win the Heisman. 1st back in history to be denied when rushing for 2,000 yards (and it happened 2 times).
Without Troy Iowa State would not have won ANY games.
Heisman is supposed to be for the best and most valuable player in the nation (not best and most valuable player on a winning team).
I am not even an Iowa State fan...lol
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Post by cmow5 on Dec 4, 2007 11:52:49 GMT -6
My question is, you hear all the time a NFL team not take a QB because they say he is a system QB, but why don't that NFL team think they can turn that system QB into a QB that fits in their system? In the NFL they have more time to work with the QB and if the kid is good enough to be even considered for the NFL then that most likely means he has the fundamentals, mechanics, and intelligence. So pick the kid, work with him like crazy so he knows everything about the system and most of the time they will have to back up the current starter for a year or two or even longer.
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Post by theprez98 on Dec 4, 2007 12:11:10 GMT -6
Think no further than Troy Davis at Iowa State 2 times he went over 2,000 yards rushing and did not win the Heisman. 1st back in history to be denied when rushing for 2,000 yards (and it happened 2 times). This also happened to Larry Johnson in 2002. |
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Post by brophy on Dec 4, 2007 12:19:57 GMT -6
Think no further than Troy Davis at Iowa State 2 times he went over 2,000 yards rushing and did not win the Heisman. 1st back in history to be denied when rushing for 2,000 yards (and it happened 2 times). Without Troy Iowa State would not have won ANY games. Heisman is supposed to be for the best and most valuable player in the nation (not best and most valuable player on a winning team). I am not even an Iowa State fan...lol didn't his younger brother repeat the feat a few years later? |
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Post by spos21ram on Dec 4, 2007 12:28:26 GMT -6
STATS do not = worth...I am a bottom line guy...wins = worth. Exactly Colt Brennan 12-0....He deserves a serious consideration for the Heisman |
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Post by Yash on Dec 4, 2007 12:37:55 GMT -6
I would argue that most players are players of a system and just about any player someone can name, you can put a system to them that made them successful. That being said, is the argument that certain systems create better pro players? Because it seems like the argument is against the stats being legitimate because of their system or whether these players can be a good pro player. One person mentioned matt leinart slipping in the draft because he was a system QB but didn't mention if he comes out in 2005 instead of 2006 hes the number one pick of the draft. So overall is the argument what system makes better pro players? If it is, how does everyone feel about this?
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Post by brophy on Dec 4, 2007 12:45:12 GMT -6
I would argue that most players are players of a system and just about any player someone can name, you can put a system to them that made them successful. That being said, is the argument that certain systems create better pro players? Because it seems like the argument is against the stats being legitimate because of their system or whether these players can be a good pro player. One person mentioned matt leinart slipping in the draft because he was a system QB but didn't mention if he comes out in 2005 instead of 2006 hes the number one pick of the draft. So overall is the argument what system makes better pro players? If it is, how does everyone feel about this? does this argument mirror that of feeder programs running the same system as varsity? a throw is a throw is a throw, but if you are running veer at jr high, now teaching that QB to 5 and 7 step drop may take some time..... versus a kid that has already been repping 5 and 7 step progressions at jr high, he will likely be 'prepped' for the system faster. Critics will argue that gun-QBs have a retarded development of drops because they rarely use it (if at all). The argument of the author was that numbers don't give you the total value of a player. |
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Post by Yash on Dec 4, 2007 15:14:15 GMT -6
I will strongly agree that numbers do not give you the total value of the player. In the example that someone gave of Troy Davis from Iowa state rushing for 2000+ yards 2 years in a row and he never was a good NFL player. the same thing with Timmy Change and Kliff Kingsberry and many other Texas Tech Qbs, never made it in the league. This is where my biased comes in. Being a notre Dame fan, (and others could say the same about their teams) but I see a lot of Notre Dame players that were never on a watch list as best at their position who are consitantly on rosters in the NFL. Maybe not going to pro bowls but starting or making a difference on teams. The examples I give are David Givens (3 rings with the pats) Arnaz Battle (WR with San Fran) Ryan Grant (rb with the packers) I could name more and others could name some about their favorite teams. But the point I make, is that these players never put up gaudy numbers in college and weren't even drafted high if at all. But they make it on the NFL level. So stats do not give you the total value of a player, I agree.
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Post by goldenbear76 on Dec 4, 2007 15:23:27 GMT -6
Just want to point out bout the Troy Davis thing...JJ Arrington also rushed for 2,000 yards and didn't get an invite New York either. There are a lot of factors that make players great offensively. It all starts with the offensive line. You can be an amazing quarterback, but if you can't get time to throw, or your running game never works..your going to suck. PERIOD. The reason teams lately go with Athletic quarterbacks is because they think it covers up the fact they can't run consistantly or pass protect.
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Post by knighter on Dec 4, 2007 15:25:43 GMT -6
Since when does NFL = College?
I have seen a great many outstanding college football players that were not good in the NFL for one reason or another.
Also Heisman Trophy has nothing to do with NFL football.
In my humble opinion the college football game is SO much better than the NFL. And HS football is better than college. In the NFL EVERYONE runs the same stuff. I hate games that come down to a damn keeker in the 4th quarter. But that is just me. I like the excitement of the college (becoming less and less as NFL trickles down) creativity. HS is where it is at for me...in 9 games we might have to prepare for 9 completely different offenses/defenses.
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Post by spreadattack on Dec 4, 2007 15:43:28 GMT -6
Knighter makes the valid point that awards can be based on all kinds of criteria. The beauty of the Heisman is it is called the "Heisman" and not the "MVP" or anything else. In other words, it can encompass all kinds of ideas.
MVP in the sense of team success with or without him? Best player as in toughest to defend (most winners are on offense)? Best guy as in most productive? Best guy as the best player from one of the top 2 or 3 teams who might win the Nat'l Championship?
Who knows. The NFL is looking for athletes and productive guys. At times they will disregard guys who have skills that don't fit their model (Brad Smith and Antwan Randle El were heroic and dynamic college QBs and both are WRs; Tommie Frazier was a beast but with injuries, medical issues, and a lack of an arm he was not primed for the NFL).
So when you talk about "systems" I think sure, Texas Tech QBs are going to put up monster stats. Stats are both a fascination with us (think fantasy football) and at times a barometer. If your RB runs for 290 yards, he probably had a pretty good darn day. Now if you want to compare him to the guy you had last year, who averaged 100 yards, or the guy from the big time system who runs for 300, who knows.
Troy Aikman ran the option in HS and ran the wishbone for a year or two in college. He clearly had the talent, though he transferred to UCLA to play in a "system" that prepared him better for the skills he would need at the Pros.
I don't have a conclusion here but one of the bigger issues is no one knows on what criteria they are supposed to be voting on. Maybe a better question is who you would want on your team (which itself is dependent on system). Tebow or Brennan? McFadden or Tebow? Dixon? I mean I think with any you will win but I think the guy I simply cannot replace in this whole equation is McFadden. Then again, there's another guy on his team, Felix Jones, with almost as many rushing yards as he has and a pretty spectacular average.
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Post by saintrad on Dec 4, 2007 15:54:40 GMT -6
I'd rather have a Tyler Graunke come in and throw for 358 yards and 2 TDs then a Brady Leaf! If Brady Leaf was the only QB I had, I'd run the single wing. if he was my only QB I would resign |
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Post by spos21ram on Dec 4, 2007 18:37:41 GMT -6
One thing I don't understand is calling Brennan a system QB yet that offense is more like a pro offense than say Florida. Yea I know there arnt many pro teams in the Gun every play but teams like the Patriots and the Packers throw atleast 75% of the time. I would think Brennan has an advantage going into the draft not a disadvantage.
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Post by dubber on Dec 4, 2007 18:46:30 GMT -6
One thing I don't understand is calling Brennan a system QB yet that offense is more like a pro offense than say Florida. Yea I know there arnt many pro teams in the Gun every play but teams like the Patriots and the Packers throw atleast 75% of the time. I would think Brennan has an advantage going into the draft not a disadvantage. bigger advantage than Tebow does.......I'll agree with that One interesting thing about "system" QB's........they rarely leave early for the draft......Tebow is going to be at Florida for two more seasons.......if he were a RB or WR putting up insane numbers, he'd be gone (redshirt sophomore, right?) But, since he is a "system QB" whose skill set doesn't fit "conventional NFL offenses" he is "stuck" at Flordia Maybe that is part of the beauty of running a "special" offense-----ask Jones, Leach, Myers, Rodriguez, etc. Studs stay around cuz' the NFL don't want em' |
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Post by hemlock on Dec 4, 2007 20:03:41 GMT -6
People say that so many of the throws that Brennan makes are extended handoffs that any HS qb could make. Not really true. The most basic ordinary throws are the ones that require great fundemental mechanics - footwork. These are the throws that win championships.
What are NFL throws and how often does a QB actually make them?
Jones is absolutely right about Tebow. People say that he has improved as a passer; not really, the reads that he is forced to make in that system because of the option threat are very transparent. Brennan on the other hand has to work thru a myriad of different looks all the time.
Frankly I don't get why the ability to run the ball mesmorizes fans. It's pretty boring. Just an opinion
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 4, 2007 20:23:18 GMT -6
spros--alignment/formation does not equal system. Just because he aligns under center doesn't mean the offense is more pro-style.
The "system" part (for me anyway) deals with the types of activities that lead statistics. Bubbles, tunnels, slips, and shovels are essentially RUNNING PLAYS whose stats are added to the QB's passing. In other "systems" these play calls would be zones, iso's, tosses, counters, etc.
As for the O-LINE in the dbl wing..I haven't seen them or the rest of the league, so obviously I can't make any subjective judgments. However, the original comment was that since a team accumulated 4000 yards rushing, then an all league player must be present. As I stated above, when evaluating something based on stats, then I do think the "system tag" could fit.
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