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Post by fantom on Jul 6, 2015 8:54:54 GMT -6
That"s never been accurate. For a long time they split up the three classifications in half so that there were six state champions but they were true state champions. The last couple of years, they made that official and now have six classifications in every sport. Thanks for the clarification. I grew up near SW VA and a bunch of those small schools used to make runs at state (including my cousin's team), but it seemed like none of them ever had to play teams from the coastal areas so this kind of made sense. Classifications are based on enrollment. Except for a few outliers the big schools are in the corridor from D.C. to Richmond then east to Hampton Roads. The western part of the state is less densely populated so most of the schools there are small schools.
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Post by mdunham on Jul 6, 2015 23:28:30 GMT -6
Massachusetts they are NOT separate. Well, vocational schools have a "bowl game" at the end of the year (large and small). NEPSAC isn't included in this, they're in their own world.
The playoffs are seeded on a power rating basis (used for past 2 years), went from 19 to 6, and all played at Gillette now. The playoff system has been of debate, but that's for another discussion.
In Division 1 (highest), privates definitely are heavyweights with a few publics. The last 4 champs I think were Catholic privates over publics. It's only a recent trend I believe though, and that's for a lot of sports. Football at the top level used to be dominated publics. Pretty much all of the major privates are in Eastern Mass (one league is a group of them) so some leagues have some real punch to them. You got a few in lower divisions too but low enrollment. I don't envision a split in football any time soon. In hockey and baseball there is a "Super 8" open division post season tournament regardless of division made by a committee. I can't imagine football doing it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2015 0:34:18 GMT -6
mdunham, your state actually shrank the number of teams they let in the playoffs from 19 to 6? Did I read that correctly?
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Post by PIGSKIN11 on Jul 7, 2015 0:53:18 GMT -6
I have sat in some many meetings discussing this in California... We will never be separate since we are a FEDERATION - evidently, if you are an Association you have more leeway As mariner42 mentioned, our section is run by the privates in all sports. Period. We have tried so many ways to manipulate the playoff systems to create parity - to no avail... a few years ago the 7th place WCAL team won a section title in their enrollment based division... (West CATHOLIC Athletic League - many on financial/tuition/coughatheleticcough aid...) They have 8 teams in their league and they are probably all in the top 10 of our 80ish team section... As mholst40 mentioned, the privates do run our state as well - not just in our section... his section has a little more parity I believe... However, the giant southern cali publics (3000+ students) can hang with the best privates in the state - you can check past CA State Bowl game results...
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Post by mariner42 on Jul 7, 2015 0:55:37 GMT -6
I have sat in some many meetings discussing this in California... We will never be separate since we are a FEDERATION - evidently, if you are an Association you have more leeway As mariner42 mentioned, our section is run by the privates in all sports. Period. We have tried so many ways to manipulate the playoff systems to create parity - to no avail... a few years ago the 7th place WCAL team won a section title in their enrollment based division... (West CATHOLIC Athletic League - many on financial/tuition/coughatheleticcough aid...) They have 8 teams in their league and they are probably all in the top 10 of our 80ish team section... As mholst40 mentioned, the privates do run our state as well - not just in our section... his section has a little more parity I believe... However, the giant southern cali publics (3000+ students) can hang with the best privates in the state - you can check past CA State Bowl game results... That 7th place WCAL team just so happened to go through us en route to that title. We should've won that game, but they shouldn't have been there in the first place.
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Post by mdunham on Jul 7, 2015 8:10:28 GMT -6
mdunham, your state actually shrank the number of teams they let in the playoffs from 19 to 6? Did I read that correctly? @coacharnold You did read that right, unfortunately I missed a couple of keywords when typing it! It sounded correct in my head but it did not translate to the keyboard! Meant to read MA went from 19 champions (EMass, CMass, WMass) down to 6 true state champions. Voc schools play in the playoffs and at the end of the season they'll still do a large and small school bowl game (with teams not in state championship). In actuality, the number of playoff teams in the new system significantly increased!
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Post by spartan on Jul 7, 2015 9:40:22 GMT -6
What I don't get is similar schools should play similar schools for example NCAA schools all have min standards for education and budgets and scholarships and stadium size. Public schools operate on a budget with wide focus where as private schools operate with a narrower focus don't have to provide all the educational programs they can choose to narrow their focus ie athletics and poor money into bursary/scholarship. Its almost like some states understand that.
Does it diminish the competition when some schools can play with an advantage over others. Yes I know some public schools operate in this manner.
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Post by mdunham on Jul 8, 2015 19:49:14 GMT -6
I think while in MA the large private Catholic schools certainly attract/draw away talent, I don't think the gap is nearly that large if at all. There really aren't enough privates to make a separate system, they're all in the same league anyway so basically it sorts itself out. I think MA is actually pretty good about placing football programs in divisions that balance enrollment and competitiveness. Schools can be different divisions in different sports too. I think it's every 2 years that schools can apply to move up or down, and the state makes that decision. Football wise, I don't think there is a need for split/separate affairs.
Now with other sports, certainly, and other accommodations have been made on a sport by sport basis.
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Post by fantom on Jul 8, 2015 20:17:11 GMT -6
What I don't get is similar schools should play similar schools for example NCAA schools all have min standards for education and budgets and scholarships and stadium size. Public schools operate on a budget with wide focus where as private schools operate with a narrower focus don't have to provide all the educational programs they can choose to narrow their focus ie athletics and poor money into bursary/scholarship. Its almost like some states understand that. Does it diminish the competition when some schools can play with an advantage over others. Yes I know some public schools operate in this manner. The NCAA comparison doesn't really work. There are budget and educational standards but those are minimum standards. Does every school have the same budget as Texas? Can all of the athletes that get into Alabama get into Vanderbilt?
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 8, 2015 21:10:30 GMT -6
Can all of the athletes that get into Alabama get into Vanderbilt? It depends on how many coloring books Vandy has left in the bookstore----BOOOM!!!!!!
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Post by marinercoach1 on Jul 12, 2015 23:45:21 GMT -6
Hawaii separates. The state championship is where the two meet up.
California does not. As many have said on here Private schools run the north. It always amazes me to see public schools consistently in contention in our section. Wouldnt ya say mariner42?
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Post by coachphillip on Jul 13, 2015 11:47:53 GMT -6
CCS definitely has good public programs, as does the NCS. But, the WCAL rules the roost out your way as well.
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Post by mariner42 on Jul 13, 2015 11:54:56 GMT -6
CCS definitely has good public programs, as does the NCS. But, the WCAL rules the roost out your way as well. *cough*
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Post by PIGSKIN11 on Jul 13, 2015 12:55:11 GMT -6
CCS definitely has good public programs, as does the NCS. But, the WCAL rules the roost out your way as well. *cough*Looks like you guys hit a 3 run HR to win it in the bottom of the 9th? baseball score haha...
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Post by marinercoach1 on Jul 13, 2015 19:14:34 GMT -6
Luckily when we had our run at a CCS title we steered clear of the private schools lol
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nndman
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Post by nndman on Oct 4, 2015 13:05:36 GMT -6
Virginia started allowing privates into the VHSL this year but only one has joined thus far and its the one that sued for admission. IIRC privates that join the VHSL must be non-boarding schools.
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Post by carookie on Oct 4, 2015 16:01:19 GMT -6
California doesn't currently separate theirs. Traditionally and unproportionally, private schools dominate the state bowl games. Most private schools in CA can't compete with the larger public schools. I should know, Im at a private school in CA now, we have 300 kids and are fine in our league, but once we get to the playoffs and have to matchup with a public school of 1200+ its a different matchup. The problem is people see the De La Salles, Mater Dei, etc. and just assume that all private schools are out their recruiting and have some unfair advantage. Most of us are just trying to offer a faith based education and athletic opportunity, and as such when we have to play public schools the number game kicks us in the teeth. I'd gladly take only private schools of our size in CIF division.
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Post by mholst40 on Oct 4, 2015 23:57:17 GMT -6
California doesn't currently separate theirs. Traditionally and unproportionally, private schools dominate the state bowl games. Most private schools in CA can't compete with the larger public schools. I should know, Im at a private school in CA now, we have 300 kids and are fine in our league, but once we get to the playoffs and have to matchup with a public school of 1200+ its a different matchup. The problem is people see the De La Salles, Mater Dei, etc. and just assume that all private schools are out their recruiting and have some unfair advantage. Most of us are just trying to offer a faith based education and athletic opportunity, and as such when we have to play public schools the number game kicks us in the teeth. I'd gladly take only private schools of our size in CIF division. In the Sac-Joaquin Section, the opposite is true. The smaller private schools dominate their divisions. Here are last years Section Final results: D1 - Public, D2 - Public, D3 - Public, D4 - Private D5 - Public, D6 - Private D7 - Private. There are not a lot of larger private schools in our section. In the state bowl games last year, the results were: Open - Private, D1 - Public, D2 - Public, D3 - Public D4 - Private When you consider private schools are less than 10% of all high schools in CA, they are winning unproportionally. Why does your school of 300 face a 1200+ enrollment school? What section are you in? I also play in a league with a perennial powerhouse private school, who draws a fair amount of kids from within our attendance boundaries. So, I'm a little biased.
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Post by WTR on Oct 5, 2015 8:20:01 GMT -6
Mississippi has separate classifications for the two, but private can chose to compete in public classification if they wish.
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Post by carookie on Oct 5, 2015 14:23:52 GMT -6
Most private schools in CA can't compete with the larger public schools. I should know, Im at a private school in CA now, we have 300 kids and are fine in our league, but once we get to the playoffs and have to matchup with a public school of 1200+ its a different matchup. The problem is people see the De La Salles, Mater Dei, etc. and just assume that all private schools are out their recruiting and have some unfair advantage. Most of us are just trying to offer a faith based education and athletic opportunity, and as such when we have to play public schools the number game kicks us in the teeth. I'd gladly take only private schools of our size in CIF division. In the Sac-Joaquin Section, the opposite is true. The smaller private schools dominate their divisions. Here are last years Section Final results: D1 - Public, D2 - Public, D3 - Public, D4 - Private D5 - Public, D6 - Private D7 - Private. There are not a lot of larger private schools in our section. In the state bowl games last year, the results were: Open - Private, D1 - Public, D2 - Public, D3 - Public D4 - Private When you consider private schools are less than 10% of all high schools in CA, they are winning unproportionally. Why does your school of 300 face a 1200+ enrollment school? What section are you in? I also play in a league with a perennial powerhouse private school, who draws a fair amount of kids from within our attendance boundaries. So, I'm a little biased. I would say that the disproportional winning is only at the top. Private schools also suffer through disproportional losing; the problem is nobody notices all the 1-9 private school teams. I am in the southern section, we have 13 CIF divisions, in playoffs we consistently run into/ match up with public schools of over 1,000.
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