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Post by Coach Geordie on Sept 22, 2006 10:45:45 GMT -6
When an official makes a decision and we believe he is wrong we will tell the referee. We all do it with varying degrees of diplomacy.
A come back I often get is "Can you show me it in the rule book?" or "Can you quote me the rule Coach?" or something dismisive like that.
Has anyone ever actually got the rule book out to continue the discussion there and then? In our league I have to believe even removing the book from my pocket would heve me enjoying the rest of the game from the locker room.
I'd be interested to hear peoples experiences.
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Post by superpower on Sept 22, 2006 10:50:23 GMT -6
While I do have my rulebook with me at all games, I have only pulled it out at half time. I don't think they would change a call even if I did show them the rulebook, but maybe we can come to an agreement for the rest of the game.
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Post by timtheenchanter on Sept 22, 2006 11:01:10 GMT -6
It is possible to change a call prior to the next snap of the ball if the rule is enforced incorrectly. That being said, I have never seen it done. The best thing to do is take a note of when it was in the game, look at the book, and if the call was wrong send it to the supervisor of official
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Post by saintrad on Sept 22, 2006 12:03:29 GMT -6
i do know from being a softball umpire that in most leagues/states/whateever if a coach pulls out a rule book to argue a call we are rquired to toss them right there and then. The reason being is that it is the officials call and their judgement as to the interpretation of it. Pulling out the rules book to argue a case puts them in a bad position and is a challenge to their ability to control a game.
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Post by djwesp on Sept 26, 2006 9:04:04 GMT -6
This exact situation happened last weekend.
We had a play where the center snapped the ball to the side. We even told the refs in warmups we would run it.
We ran it, and got called for "snap infraction"... when we were completely irate the official (high school federation--- obviously clueless) said, "show me in the rule book"...
Trainer had the rulebook--- ref then claimed that the rule was from the wrong federation edition and that snap was still not allowed, and now we have sent the tape of the game off to our athletic association for review (because the ref didn't know an obvious rule).
And yes, the snap was legal by all editions.
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Post by Coach Geordie on Sept 26, 2006 10:16:15 GMT -6
Does this not seem like the ref just will not lose face and rather enforce the wrong rule than admit a mistake?
How would we improve our teams as coaches if we never aknowledged a mistake?
I personally would have more respect for the ref who said "Hey, you're right but we've already spotted the ball. Our bad. We'll do better net time"
Or is that just me?
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Post by knighter on Sept 27, 2006 5:24:51 GMT -6
I am a firm believer that all officials are humans, and thus prone to make mistakes at times. If they are honest and tell me they missed it I am okay with it, it is when I get the arrogant attitude that "I am never wrong" that gets me heated up. This year I have stuck to my idea that me getting worked up over a call isn't going to change the call, so I just do my best to keep my mouth shut. Thus far it is working. When I can calmly discuss a "perceived" bad call with the official I do so, but until my blood pressure is down, and the urge to choke slam someone diminishes, I bite my tongue. We have been called for illegal motion twice this year and big plays, when in reality it is just a wing going in motion prior to the snap of the ball. Has been explained to me that my wing needs to be in motion longer, which according to rulebook is incorrect, it says only 1 guy can be in motion prior to the snap, and he must not be moving towards the ball. If it is called, we just adjust and run our stuff with no motion, simple enough I guess.
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Post by timtheenchanter on Sept 27, 2006 6:02:57 GMT -6
Does this not seem like the ref just will not lose face and rather enforce the wrong rule than admit a mistake? How would we improve our teams as coaches if we never aknowledged a mistake? I personally would have more respect for the ref who said "Hey, you're right but we've already spotted the ball. Our bad. We'll do better net time" Or is that just me? It has less to do with the loss of face and more to do with uncertainty. Overturning calls isn't a good habit to get into during the game. It affects tempo, timing, and rhythm for the teams and the ability to administrate the game for the officials. I am going to have to be certain I am wrong before I change a call. I have found that for me, my first reaction and thought is normally correct and I get myself in trouble over thinking a situation. My crew has waived off right at an average of a flag a game this year. Not because we got talked out of the foul, but because we are doing a pretty good job of crew communication to keep everyone out of trouble. A good official will admit when they made a mistake and they are confident enough in their ability to do so. All of that being said, this is why I continue to beat my "study the rules" drum. Officials have to react instantly and be right. The only way that can be done is through constant study of rules and mechanics and spending time in the gym. It is harder to make a call when you are fatigued than when you are in shape. |
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Post by timtheenchanter on Sept 27, 2006 6:05:21 GMT -6
I am a firm believer that all officials are humans, and thus prone to make mistakes at times. If they are honest and tell me they missed it I am okay with it, it is when I get the arrogant attitude that "I am never wrong" that gets me heated up. This year I have stuck to my idea that me getting worked up over a call isn't going to change the call, so I just do my best to keep my mouth shut. Thus far it is working. When I can calmly discuss a "perceived" bad call with the official I do so, but until my blood pressure is down, and the urge to choke slam someone diminishes, I bite my tongue. We have been called for illegal motion twice this year and big plays, when in reality it is just a wing going in motion prior to the snap of the ball. Has been explained to me that my wing needs to be in motion longer, which according to rulebook is incorrect, it says only 1 guy can be in motion prior to the snap, and he must not be moving towards the ball. If it is called, we just adjust and run our stuff with no motion, simple enough I guess. One thought on motion that you might want to chew on. There isn't any requirement for how long they have to be in motion, but it has to be smooth and not simulate the start of the play. If he takes off quickly in a lateral motion toward the sideline immediately before the snap, that could be called as a false start/illegal motion. Just something to think about. |
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Post by Coach Geordie on Sept 27, 2006 8:00:18 GMT -6
A good official will admit when they made a mistake and they are confident enough in their ability to do so. I think you've hit on the herart of the issue. As a good ref you are more likely than not to get it right. If yiou do make a mistake tu have everyone's respect because you care about being correct. |
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Post by groundchuck on Sept 27, 2006 13:16:11 GMT -6
Anyone ever had an offical call a "do over"? Seriously, once in a varsity game the other team fumbled the snap and we recovered. The officials said it was a muff and therefore a do-over.
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Post by brophy on Sept 27, 2006 13:18:03 GMT -6
"The official must have saw something to make him take it out of his pants"
---Joe Theisman, MNF.
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Post by timtheenchanter on Sept 27, 2006 13:33:08 GMT -6
Anyone ever had an offical call a "do over"? Seriously, once in a varsity game the other team fumbled the snap and we recovered. The officials said it was a muff and therefore a do-over. Had a couple that I wish were do-overs. The only time we have replayed the down on a loose ball was when a whistle blew while the ball was loose. That would cause what you are describing. |
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Post by timtheenchanter on Sept 27, 2006 13:34:04 GMT -6
"The official must have saw something to make him take it out of his pants" ---Joe Theisman, MNF. Theisman is a piece of work. He consistently proves why staying silent so that people will think you are a fool versus speaking and proving them right is true. |
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Post by coachmacplains on Sept 27, 2006 14:46:42 GMT -6
Anyone ever had an offical call a "do over"? Seriously, once in a varsity game the other team fumbled the snap and we recovered. The officials said it was a muff and therefore a do-over. Yes, this past Friday...we had a lot of rain/drizzle. Other team's long snapper skidded one on the ground about a foot and a half and we covered it. They let them re-snap due to slick ball. Have not seen one like that. |
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Post by oguru on Sept 27, 2006 15:49:32 GMT -6
I use to referee football,and one time I had a coach acuse me of point his teams way after a fumble. I told him that I did not do that as I threw my beanbag down,and then had my hand to my isde. Not up high like I would have if I was point his teams way. He was ont he field yelling at me.
I calm;y wne tover to him asked him to get off the field he then say Geeze buddy you blew the cal admit it I will even send you the tape.
I immediately flagged him for unsportsmanlike conduct. What he did was wrong. i don't go to his work and critize him when he makes a mistake or what I think was a mistake.
Referees referee and coaches coach. If you don't like the call. After the game lkook up the rule,and if what it says in the rules is what you thought take the play and send it to the head of officials for your league.
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Post by phantom on Sept 27, 2006 18:08:06 GMT -6
I think you got a little rabbit-eared on that one.
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Post by coachcb on Sept 27, 2006 18:39:53 GMT -6
I carry a rule book with me- I started because we had two terrible MS officials in our district one year. I have the utmost respect for the officials, its a tough job, but these two made terrible calls and were very combative. I was never rude to either of them, but did calmly approach them about bad calls (non- judgment stuff- calling us for illegal formations, illegal motions). One game, we ran a tackle-over formation and they called us for having an illegal formation ('You can't cover up the TE (our stud tackle, #66). They also called us for motions- "The motion man can't be moving when the ball is snapped, he has to be set"
After that game I sent the tape and a letter to the officials association and started carrying around a rule book.
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Post by coachpoe on Sept 27, 2006 20:45:47 GMT -6
we had an official call a "do-over" once when I was in high school. It was 4th and 1 and we stopped the other team, but the ref claimed to have blown a whistle during the play, which no one heard since everyone kept playing, and let the other team re-do the play. Of course we stopped them again, but that was the most ridiculous call I have ever seen and our coach played the rest of the game on protest.
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Post by timtheenchanter on Sept 28, 2006 6:52:34 GMT -6
we had an official call a "do-over" once when I was in high school. It was 4th and 1 and we stopped the other team, but the ref claimed to have blown a whistle during the play, which no one heard since everyone kept playing, and let the other team re-do the play. Of course we stopped them again, but that was the most ridiculous call I have ever seen and our coach played the rest of the game on protest. That is the correct call on an inadvertant whistle. By rule, the team in possession can either take the ball at the point where it was when the whistle was blown or replay the down. In this case, the team correctly opted for taking the option to replay. The IW sucks, but the call is exactly correct by rule. |
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Post by coachcb on Sept 28, 2006 8:00:38 GMT -6
Coach Geordie- I have pulled out the rule book several times and never got in trouble. As I stated above, I only did so when it was a non-judgment call (motion, formation....) that they completely blew. I called a timeout, sent one assistant out to the team and I pulled the official aside. They weren't terribly happy with me, but there was no way I was going to let the team get ripped off by a bad call.
I had an official try to flag us for "collar tackling" last week- an NFL rule. I called a time out and politely asked the officials to show me this rule. They couldn't do so, I got the time out back and the the penalty was revoked.
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Post by bulldog on Sept 29, 2006 2:16:43 GMT -6
The quality of officiating is declining every year. We have a shortage of officials in our section and they fill games every week with guys calling their first games ever - on the varsity level. We expect to have horrible officiating every game and it is a pleasure to have those one or two games per year exception. When we get those well-called games, we make sure to thank the officials and send in positive comment cards.
To me, a well called game is one that is controlled and balanced with good communication and common sense. We love it because we know there are good officials out there. They just seem to be so rare nowadays.
How many of you guys have officials who take your film and review their own work - to try and improve? I'll bet the number is very small. It's a shame because the coaches and kids put in so much time. And the officiating is not keeping pace.
We seem to get the off-duty cop/control freak a couple of times per year. The guy who thinks he gets paid per flag thrown. The guy who calls penalties all over the field. The guy who overrules all the other officials. The guy who gives sideline warnings on the first play and throws the flag on the second. The guy who talks at the coaches instead of with them. The guy with the big ego and the small tolerance.
We also seem to get the 500lb 'bury-me-in-a-piano-case' official a couple of times per year. The guy who is the umpire and can't step up out of the way. The guy who threatens to throw players out of the game because they keep running into him. They guy who makes calls that he can't possibly see because he can't turn around in the 4 seconds it takes to run a play. The guy who is horribly out of shape and can't get the ball set in time for us to run our spread, up-tempo game.
And of course, the rookie sideline guy. We see a new one (or two) of him every week. The guy who never watches what you ask him to watch. The guy who never passes along your comments to the white hat or the other officials for fear of seeming weak. They guy who has no clue about what to call or how to control a game. They guy who is on the other sideline and is talked into calls by the opposing coaches (you can tell because the flag comes while your team is walking back to the huddle and the opposing coach is 10 yard on the field screaming in the guy's ear).
But then again, we get the true gem a couple of times per year. The guy who warns you about issues before throwing the flag. The guy who communicates the number of the player for every infraction. The guy who takes the time to communicate with the HC's. They guy who controls the game not be fear and intimidation, but by communication and honesty. The guy who realizes bad calls go both ways. The guy who realizes that he is there for the kids, not his ego and his ability to 'save face'. The guy who works to get calls right. The guy who encourages communication between his crew. The guy who understands it is more important to have integrity and try to get the calls rights than it is to never correct a call. The guys who has a sense of humor and does not take himself seriously. The guy who says to you, 'I think I (we) missed that call - we'll try to get it right next time'. The guy who says, 'could you send me a copy of your film, I think I missed a call or two and I want to double check.'
Twenty years ago, we had a lot of these guys. Now, they are leaving the ranks of officials at an alarming rate. Oh well. It is what it is.
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Post by lothaar on Sept 29, 2006 2:59:46 GMT -6
A little off topic, but here's a story relating to the uncertainty factor...
A couple of years ago we were playing in a Final. We were up 24-22, after a big comeback, putting one in with 1.30 on the clock. The other team marched down the field into the fringes of FG range, With 30 seconds left, we held them and they elected to kick a 47-yarder. It was a beauty of a kick, split the uprights and put them ahead 25-24.
But wait!....
A flag had been thrown on the snap of the ball for ‘illegal participation’. The other team had 12 men on the pitch.
The kicking team protested, then the ref (back judge, I think) who threw the flag started changing his mind. The whitecap had been in the wrong position and didn’t count the players too. The whitecap asked the flag-thrower if he was sure, to which he responded: “I dunno… You make the call.”
At this stage both teams are going crazy.
Next, the whitecap tries to count the players on the pitch! He counted 11… but this was about 30 seconds after the play, and video footage shows that one of the players had just wandered off to the sideline while he waited for a call to be made.
Whitecap waives the flag, and we go absolutely mental! How can you count the players after the fact? Remember, this is the difference between winning and losing the final.
40 minutes later – yep FORTY minutes – after arguing back and forth and even consulting video footage on the tiny flip-out screen of the sideline cameras (which isn’t provided for in the rules, and it was impossible to tell anyway) they finally enforce the penalty and move the kicking team back 10 yards, out of FG range. They didn’t convert and we won.
I’m glad they got the call right in the end but it took the sweetness out of the victory. The fans were bored, and p**sed off because an absolute cracker of a game turned into a 40-minute long farce. We felt like we didn’t deserve the win, in a way.
I appreciate that this is the exact scenario that officials have nightmares about – huge, uncommon penalty on the most important play of the most important game. Still, if decisiveness had prevailed the initial flag would have resulted in a penalty and it would have been a lot tidier.
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Post by timtheenchanter on Sept 29, 2006 10:47:51 GMT -6
Bulldog, you make excellent points. As an official, I couldn't agree more.
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Post by coachcb on Sept 29, 2006 11:51:19 GMT -6
Its tought to be an official, especially when you have to make quick judgement calls. Even simple, repetitive stuff like spotting the ball is a tough thing to do. I couldn't imagine having to make a snap decision on something like pass interference.
However, when you get sh*tty procedural calls involving formations, motions and personnel- then I get upset. Thats simple stuff that just involves knowing the rules of the game. Every official on the field should be counting the number of players on the field- its that simple.
I'll toss out one more official story and then my rant is done. We had one of those rookies that bulldog described- the kid p*ssed down his leg the entire game. We were the away team (thus we had the home teams daddies as a chain crew) and it was early in the game. We threw a quick out to sideline, the ball was thrown very low, it hit the ground and was then scooped up by their CB. Now I was standing right in front of the play, as was this young side judge and the home-team-daddy chain crew. It was obvious the ball hit the ground, there was even a divot in the field. This ref half-heartedly called it an incompletion, the daddy's went ape-sh*t ("It's a pick, it's a pick!!"), and he quickly reversed the call to an interception. I called a time out(we were on our 20- turnover=score) and asked the official why in the h*ll would he reverse a call and was promptly given a sideline warning. I walked back to the sideline and calmly (honestly) told the chain crew that they needed to start being objective. The same official over-heard it and I got flagged for it.
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Post by coachcb on Sept 29, 2006 11:52:59 GMT -6
I am a firm believer that all officials are humans, and thus prone to make mistakes at times. If they are honest and tell me they missed it I am okay with it, it is when I get the arrogant attitude that "I am never wrong" that gets me heated up. This year I have stuck to my idea that me getting worked up over a call isn't going to change the call, so I just do my best to keep my mouth shut. Thus far it is working. When I can calmly discuss a "perceived" bad call with the official I do so, but until my blood pressure is down, and the urge to choke slam someone diminishes, I bite my tongue. We have been called for illegal motion twice this year and big plays, when in reality it is just a wing going in motion prior to the snap of the ball. Has been explained to me that my wing needs to be in motion longer, which according to rulebook is incorrect, it says only 1 guy can be in motion prior to the snap, and he must not be moving towards the ball. If it is called, we just adjust and run our stuff with no motion, simple enough I guess. There is no way in h*ll I would change my offense to humor officials that don't know the rules. Give them the friggin' rule book and explain it to them |
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Post by knighter on Sept 29, 2006 14:24:27 GMT -6
enchanter, i appreciate your advice on the motion, but we go over this in pre game...seems as though when the other team does jump, we get called, even if we had just run the same play with the same motion on the previous play and no one jumped...this is a farce, it is not simulating a snap, hell us DW'ers motion dang near every play.
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Post by timtheenchanter on Sept 29, 2006 14:51:09 GMT -6
enchanter, i appreciate your advice on the motion, but we go over this in pre game...seems as though when the other team does jump, we get called, even if we had just run the same play with the same motion on the previous play and no one jumped...this is a farce, it is not simulating a snap, hell us DW'ers motion dang near every play. Most good DW teams understand that and do it well. We have a team in this area that looks like a bunch of sychronized swimmers with the amount of shifting they do. That being said, they do it well and are always legal. Hang in there. |
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Post by timtheenchanter on Sept 29, 2006 15:05:35 GMT -6
I am a firm believer that all officials are humans, and thus prone to make mistakes at times. If they are honest and tell me they missed it I am okay with it, it is when I get the arrogant attitude that "I am never wrong" that gets me heated up. This year I have stuck to my idea that me getting worked up over a call isn't going to change the call, so I just do my best to keep my mouth shut. Thus far it is working. When I can calmly discuss a "perceived" bad call with the official I do so, but until my blood pressure is down, and the urge to choke slam someone diminishes, I bite my tongue. We have been called for illegal motion twice this year and big plays, when in reality it is just a wing going in motion prior to the snap of the ball. Has been explained to me that my wing needs to be in motion longer, which according to rulebook is incorrect, it says only 1 guy can be in motion prior to the snap, and he must not be moving towards the ball. If it is called, we just adjust and run our stuff with no motion, simple enough I guess. There is no way in h*ll I would change my offense to humor officials that don't know the rules. Give them the friggin' rule book and explain it to them I appreciate the frustration, but you shouldn't have to give them the rule book. That is their JOB. That is why we are there. The best recourse is to call the assigner and let them know what the problem was. For crews that screw up Friday night games, you may want to ask the assigner not to send them back. |
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Post by los on Sept 29, 2006 18:51:41 GMT -6
Whenever I had to officiate our youth games or help the HS head coach do the 7th and 8th grade games, I gave myself two standing rules of thumb- #1. Don't run with the whistle in your mouth, lol and #2. Don't call a penalty if your not sure about it- (rules or enforcement and stuff) los
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