|
Post by toprowguy on Jul 29, 2006 11:44:27 GMT -6
Urban Meyer said the following about making big plays on offense. I consider a big play over 25 yards.
"I just finished up a study with the help of some NFL friends," he said. "Teams that start drives without a big play in that drive, the chance of scoring is 10 percent. If you have one big play, it goes up to 50 percent. If you have two, you score 80 percent of the time. The way my simple mind works is big plays equal scores, so let's recruit speed."
|
|
|
Post by shakdaddy3 on Jul 29, 2006 12:49:25 GMT -6
well.. it does make sense.. epscially with 2 big plays. my question is, what is the "big play attempts" to turnover ratio? I'm sure it varies a lot based on what a team runs, and the good teams probably have a better ratio than the bads ones. Just something to think about...
|
|
|
Post by djwesp on Jul 29, 2006 14:14:27 GMT -6
well.. it does make sense.. epscially with 2 big plays. my question is, what is the "big play attempts" to turnover ratio? I'm sure it varies a lot based on what a team runs, and the good teams probably have a better ratio than the bads ones. Just something to think about... he must not study the wishbone and full house. I know teams that are efficient that never have more than a 5 yard pop.
|
|
|
Post by coachcalande on Jul 29, 2006 16:28:13 GMT -6
Urban Meyer said the following about making big plays on offense. I consider a big play over 25 yards. "I just finished up a study with the help of some NFL friends," he said. "Teams that start drives without a big play in that drive, the chance of scoring is 10 percent. If you have one big play, it goes up to 50 percent. If you have two, you score 80 percent of the time. The way my simple mind works is big plays equal scores, so let's recruit speed." thats probably because no one in the NFL wants to run the ball and manufacture first downs any more...id rather see the stats that say "if you get 3 first downs rushing in a drive you score 50% of the time..if you get 5 first downs rushing you see the number go up to 75% and if you grind out 7 first downs you ...etc..
|
|
|
Post by spreadattack on Jul 29, 2006 20:18:32 GMT -6
thats probably because no one in the NFL wants to run the ball and manufacture first downs any more...id rather see the stats that say "if you get 3 first downs rushing in a drive you score 50% of the time..if you get 5 first downs rushing you see the number go up to 75% and if you grind out 7 first downs you ...etc.. Because those stats are not feasible, and even if they were they are meaningless because if you get 7 first downs passing you score more also, or get the ball on the same yardline after a turnover. The issue is that football is like a game of craps: you get incremental gains but once it's over (4th down, or a turnover) you are wiped out and have to start over on trying to score. Big plays equal scores because no team gets 5 yards a pop efficiently enough to drive 80 yards with great regularity. The thing is that even if you're fantastic at getting 5 yards every play, you still have to do it 2 out of 3 times 7 or 8 times to drive the length of the field. If you got a first down every time you had a first down (the rate that you turn one 1st and 10 into another one) was say 85%, an amazing rate, you still only have a 27% chance of driving 80 yards (.85 to the 8th power). If you get a first down at a more normal but still great rate, like say 65%, the chance of driving 80 yards drops to 3%!!The issue is you just have to get very lucky to string together enough successes, even if you're the most efficient team ever. It's exactly like flipping a coin 7 or 8 times and hoping to get heads every single time, because as soon as you get one tails (punt or turnover) you have to start over. (Even a team that gets a first down 95% of the time they have 1st and 10 still only drives 80 yards ~60% of the time). This is why big plays help, because they eat up chunks of field position. No matter how efficient you are you give yourself too many chances to fail or have something go wrong if you can't get big plays (which I consider to be runs of 12+ and passes over 20+). This is just about scoring points mind you. Obviously once you get a lead then you need to burn the clock of course.
|
|
|
Post by redfish on Jul 29, 2006 20:41:13 GMT -6
I think his point was speed kills. The study sounds kind of like it should have been funded by the government, though. Tell me something I don't know, Urban. You're kidding, 25 yard plays increase your chances of scoring? Who'd of thunk it? I suppose that getting the ball at the other team's 30 (start at the twenty, add 2 plays of 25 yards) will up your chances of scoring to a higher percentage, also.
Speed does kill.
|
|
|
Post by groundchuck on Jul 29, 2006 21:04:36 GMT -6
I think his point was speed kills. The study sounds kind of like it should have been funded by the government, though. Tell me something I don't know, Urban. You're kidding, 25 yard plays increase your chances of scoring? Who'd of thunk it? I suppose that getting the ball at the other team's 30 (start at the twenty, add 2 plays of 25 yards) will up your chances of scoring to a higher percentage, also. Speed does kill. That's the translation from NFL down to the pop warner level. Speed kills. If a wishbone team has speed they can make big plays. If you're a spread team with speed you can make big plays. Heck, and Iso can turn into a big play if you hit it right and the back has wheels. We think of manufacturing big plays and it is true at times we all have to. I think one of the scarriest plays is the midline when the QB runs 4.5. One missed tackle and the kid gets 25 yards. But it makes perfect sense that if you can get two plays and move the ball 50+ yards on those two plays your chances of scoring go way up. Figure if you get the ball on your 25 and you go 25 on on the 1st play now you are on the 50. Get another and your on the other 25. I like my odds.
|
|
|
Post by silkyice on Jul 30, 2006 12:53:09 GMT -6
thats probably because no one in the NFL wants to run the ball and manufacture first downs any more...id rather see the stats that say "if you get 3 first downs rushing in a drive you score 50% of the time..if you get 5 first downs rushing you see the number go up to 75% and if you grind out 7 first downs you ...etc.. Because those stats are not feasible, and even if they were they are meaningless because if you get 7 first downs passing you score more also, or get the ball on the same yardline after a turnover. The issue is that football is like a game of craps: you get incremental gains but once it's over (4th down, or a turnover) you are wiped out and have to start over on trying to score. Big plays equal scores because no team gets 5 yards a pop efficiently enough to drive 80 yards with great regularity. The thing is that even if you're fantastic at getting 5 yards every play, you still have to do it 2 out of 3 times 7 or 8 times to drive the length of the field. If you got a first down every time you had a first down (the rate that you turn one 1st and 10 into another one) was say 85%, an amazing rate, you still only have a 27% chance of driving 80 yards (.85 to the 8th power). If you get a first down at a more normal but still great rate, like say 65%, the chance of driving 80 yards drops to 3%!!The issue is you just have to get very lucky to string together enough successes, even if you're the most efficient team ever. It's exactly like flipping a coin 7 or 8 times and hoping to get heads every single time, because as soon as you get one tails (punt or turnover) you have to start over. (Even a team that gets a first down 95% of the time they have 1st and 10 still only drives 80 yards ~60% of the time). This is why big plays help, because they eat up chunks of field position. No matter how efficient you are you give yourself too many chances to fail or have something go wrong if you can't get big plays (which I consider to be runs of 12+ and passes over 20+). This is just about scoring points mind you. Obviously once you get a lead then you need to burn the clock of course. Spread, Shouldn't a natual extension from those stats be that a bend, but don't break defense is by far the best? Next, is it possible that some of these stats are skewed because defenses are more attacking now? Attacking defenses make it more difficult to drive, but conversely easier to get a big play. By the way, I am not arguing. I completely buy into all you are saying, merely want to hear your take on the two questions.
|
|
|
Post by spreadattack on Jul 30, 2006 13:18:20 GMT -6
In response to your second question: Maybe, insofar as it might be easier to get the big plays. Football does evolve and is a cat and mouse game (or game theory?).
To the first, not necessarily. The key is to try to get the ball back as quick as possible, through turnovers or on downs. A bend but don't break could work, in that if you give up 3 yards or less consistently they will have to punt, but attacking D's tend to figure that one sack or two incompletions or an incompletion and a stuff effectively reduces the probability of converting to a neglible amount.
So an attacking defense may figure that it will give up 10+ on a given play--it'll accept the mulligan but figure that the next 3 plays will be stuff, stuff, incompletion, or something like that. The drawback is one "hit" is a first down (or touchdown?) but it hopes to stuff frequently enough to force 4th down. This is one reason that aggressive defenses need defensive backs who can really tackle, because you can live with giving up some 10-20 yard plays, but if every time they complete a pass vs. man or break the line it is a TD, you're screwed.
That said, a "bend but don't break" which does give up incremental first downs is obviously no better. Also, while I think TOP is almost entirely meaningless, actually having the ball--the number of plays you run--is often not meaningless. Average yards per play matters more, but the problem with a bend but don't break is often that it gives the offense more opportunities to break a big play.
Put differently, a bend but don't break may give up "big plays" at a lower rate per play than an aggressive defense (say 1 out of 12 plays) but may give up more over the course of the whole game because it lets the offense keep the ball longer and have more opportunities to strike.
|
|
|
Post by fbdoc on Jul 31, 2006 9:44:44 GMT -6
I always liked the Sid Gilman quote on offense - something along the lines of "Why would I design a play that is only supposed to gain 4 yards?"
Obviously hanging onto the ball and keeping the sticks moving is sound offensive football. Our stated offensive philosophy to the kids is "First downs and touchdowns". Anyway they come, thats what we want. At the same time we preach to them yards after contact, yards after catch, turn a 5 yard play into a 50 yard play. Big plays are BIG!
|
|
|
Post by blb on Jul 31, 2006 10:08:47 GMT -6
Football games are usually decided by five or six big plays, not all of them offensive. They could include a blocked kick, a 4th and one stop on defense, etc.
In one game out of five, perhaps, is one team physically dominant enough to consistently march the ball into the end zone without being stopped, or stopping themselves, without the aid of a "big play."
As Homer Smith asserts, time of possession is overrated, almost meaningless. The object of the game is to score more points than the other team, not play "keep away."
If you hold the ball 10-12 plays, for four or five minutes but don't score, you have availed yourself nothing. This is particularly true in the modern game where a typical scoring "drive" lasts about 1:30 of game time.
|
|
|
Post by silkyice on Jul 31, 2006 15:02:02 GMT -6
We were winning 17-13. Other team made a 9 minute drive to score and go up 17 -20 with 7 minutes to go in the game. We scored in 2 plays. LOL. I actually felt sorry for the other team. You could see all the fire go right out them. We won 24-20.
|
|
|
Post by coachcb on Jul 31, 2006 15:46:12 GMT -6
We can have a this type of theoretical conversation all day, but it all comes down to one simple question-"What wins games?"
We have all seen the same thing- coaches have won (and lost) football games and championships with a myriad of offensive attacks.
Three years ago, I watched a splitback veer team lose to a 5-wide pass heavy squad 43-42. The next year, I watched the same schools play and the veer team won 38-35.
|
|
|
Post by spreadattack on Jul 31, 2006 17:25:28 GMT -6
I don't consider veer teams non-risky no-big play offenses. Veer teams are going to pound you with dive after dive, but eventually they're going to try to hit that pitch and get a big play. It's just like a passing team running shallows and hitches waiting to hit you with a post route.
|
|
|
Post by djwesp on Jul 31, 2006 17:57:50 GMT -6
I don't consider veer teams non-risky no-big play offenses. Veer teams are going to pound you with dive after dive, but eventually they're going to try to hit that pitch and get a big play. It's just like a passing team running shallows and hitches waiting to hit you with a post route. what? I think it is much easier to just take what the defense gives you, if it is that 3.334 yard pop every time, TAKE IT. If they give you the outside, take that too... but how often do veer/midline teams think of it like that? Most of them i know, don't ever try to take it to the outside... they just do it if that is what is given to them.
|
|
|
Post by spreadattack on Jul 31, 2006 20:09:24 GMT -6
Well, it depends on who is coaching and what their mindset is. The most dangerous veer teams I've been a part of or gone against would pound you play after play but were always a threat to break a big one.
Anyway, all this is a bit silly, but no one is saying you're supposed to throw bombs into coverage in an effort to get big plays. I also never understand when people say "you can have this theoretical debate but the question is what wins games? everything does!" What help is that? Our "theoretical discussion" is a hope to figure out what really does win games. There's lots of clutter and we fool ourselves into thinking our grind it out offense or even our risky big play offense is why we're winning when maybe we're only winning in spite of, not because of.
|
|
|
Post by firebird on Aug 1, 2006 4:59:37 GMT -6
Spread,
It's nice to see someone quantify what I have always believed. Offenses need big plays to score. Rarely are teams good enough to grind it out the length of the field without at least one good play. "4 yards a pop" is a nice catch phrase coaches use when talking about thier grind it out, take no prisoners offense, but what happens to that "4 yards a pop team" when they jump offsides, hold, or have an illegal block. 4x3<15 (or even 25).
This is why I feel that every coach no matter what the offense or philosophy, should make a conscious effort to set up and look for the big play. The big play could come off a reverse, play action pass, option pitch, gadget play, etc. Ideally, the coach puts together his offensive system by having a series of sound plays that he believes in and a series of plays that are specifically designed as big play types based on how the d is defending you. For a spread team that is facing 7 men dropping into coverage, a draw can be a big play. For the veer team that PA seam route to the TE can be huge and help keep the safetly honest.
For all the complexity that we try to place on it, football is really a simple game.
Offense: Look for the big play. Try to minimize the other teams big plays. Defense: Look for the big play.Try to minimize the other teams big plays. Special Teams: Look for the big play. Try to minimize the other teams big plays.
|
|