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Post by spos21ram on Apr 29, 2015 18:37:16 GMT -6
As he stated earlier it's a prep league. Different animal. I think in his case it would be a great idea to get involved and clinic them. Things like how to practice, drills and the such. I agree. Every varsity staff should be involved with their youth teams in some capacity. I think running the same offense is pretty low on the list though. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using proboards
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Post by coachd5085 on Apr 29, 2015 20:45:07 GMT -6
I'm not ignorant to the ways different systems are set up in different states. The original post clearly comes from a coach who has a middle school program that feeds their high school. Yes, different places are organized different ways, but the OP obviously has a middle school feeder. Actually the OP doesn't. In fact, although you say it clearly comes from a coach who has a middle school program that feeds the highschool, the OP says in just 6 posts below the original that he DOES NOT HAVE MIDDLE SCHOOL FEEDER PROGRAMS! If the HS coach is canned, find out what the new guy is going to run. If the high school is changing offenses, they probably still have a base offense that they are tweaking at the varsity level. Find out what their base is and do that. Now, if the high school is jumping from the wing t to the spread and then to the I from year to year, yeah I'll concede, it would be tempting to do your own thing. Without turning this into simple bickering back and forth, I think you kind of missed my point. My point was to point out the less than stellar efficacy of vertical integration in many situations. As I said on a previous thread with this topic, the whole idea of having 12/13 year olds running the same plays your varsity does, and using the same words is like a billionaire winning the lottery. Nice, but absolutely not necessary
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Post by ksmitty79 on Apr 29, 2015 21:04:26 GMT -6
Thanks for all the different perspectives. I knew this was a difficult topic as everyone has a different scenarios.
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Post by leethefootballcoach on Apr 29, 2015 21:11:49 GMT -6
Ours do. We are all the same program from Varsity to 7th grade. As HC, I hire the JR high coaches and we operate as one staff from the top down. I would have a major problem with not being able to control what the jr high is doing too. Indian: We also try to have one staff from 7-12 grade. Our MS HC is our TE coach. I don't want to hijack a thread (if needed i will start a new one), but i have some questions how you do things. This past year we split practice Offense and Defense and while varsity offense is going, the defensive coaches coach fundamentals to MS. They have team separate with just a couple MS coaches while the rest of us go to varsity team. However, we are going to try and platoon this year, except for a couple of stud DB/WR's. After spring practice we will have narrowed down who will play what side of the ball. This measn we can have more indy and team time with each side. however, that gets in the way of us coaching MS players. The MS cannot platoon and we know that we would not give them equal reps that we do our varsity players when they are with us. Do you or anyone have any advice how we could continue coaching the MS fundamentals/ Indy periods? We are a little wary of volunteer "Dads" that want to help, but really just want their kid to get the ball more etc. We have been very excited about the idea of coaching them for 6 years instead of 4 and really hope it can work out.
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smcauliffe54
Sophomore Member
Wisconsin 2018 Division 4 State Champions 14-0
Posts: 188
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Post by smcauliffe54 on Apr 30, 2015 3:19:49 GMT -6
i think it helps to have the same kids on the same team going up through the levels most importantly.
finally have had the ability to have our coaches help coach youth teams(and varsity players help coach as well) after our varsity practice. everyone practices on our practice field. have a basic playbook for each level.
head coach of each level lets us know what he thinks his kids are ready for. if they are ready to add a play or need a play we give them one from our playbook. Have mostly coaches that want to coach and not just dad's coaching their kids.
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Post by vince148 on Apr 30, 2015 4:43:48 GMT -6
I'm going to chime in from a different perspective. A couple of years ago, I coached MS for our HS team. We were running wing-t. That's what the HC wanted and we tried. Meanwhile, the varsity was getting their butts handed to them going 1-8. We were also getting manhandled. I was not the HC of the MS team, but me and that HC decided that we needed to do something different. So I installed power-I and ran it for two games. The first game we ran it, we were consistent moving the ball and actually made first downs. The final game, we won 7-0, scoring with less than two minutes left in the game. We finished 1-5.
At review time, the HC was not happy that I changed from wing-t and I did not get rehired. I know that this was my fault and there is no one else to blame. However, my concern was for the morale of the kids. Despite the fact that I drilled pulling and everything else, they just couldn't get it. I switched to basically a man and half-ass zone scheme and just allowed them to be physical. It worked much better. And the kids to this day tell me that they liked that much better. But they don't do the hiring.
So while I tend to agree that MS should focus more on the fundamentals, you still have to be mindful of what the HC wants. But I believe that the HC must give some tolerance if the MS coaches feel that the system may be too complicated that they risk the development of fundamentals.
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Post by indian1 on Apr 30, 2015 6:42:04 GMT -6
leewhite,
I don't think I was clear in my post. We have 4 Jr. High coaches and 5 HS coaches including me. What I meant when I said we are all the same program is that as HS HC I hired the Jr. high guys and they run what we run. We meet with them before the season and communicate during. They don't coach any HS guys and the HS coaches don't coach any jr high kids. Sorry about the misunderstanding.
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Post by bluedevils10 on Apr 30, 2015 7:31:19 GMT -6
We give the middle school staff access to our program so they can run our stuff. Obviously we would love for them to run it like we do but we understand that it is not likely to happen. We try to get them to do some of the basic indy stuff that we do and use some terminology. Offense we teach them our basics and that's it. If they can send us kids who get into a good stance, fire out, tackle someone with their head up, and step with the correct foot I'd be ecstatic. thats EXACTLY how the relationship should be. be open, but not demanding I agree. I meet with the Modified coaching staff to review the key core concepts that we run at the Varsity level and they install some of those base plays. I also give them the freedom to experiment and add in their own plays and ideas. It helps them to develop as coaches, especially because we have younger coaches at that level. The coaches do come to our practices over the summer so they also use some the same drills as well that way when they season starts we can combine players to run the drills. (Small school, with 25 on Varsity)
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Post by amakelky on Apr 30, 2015 16:08:12 GMT -6
Ours do. We are all the same program from Varsity to 7th grade. As HC, I hire the JR high coaches and we operate as one staff from the top down. I would have a major problem with not being able to control what the jr high is doing too. This is what makes the difference. If the varsity HC is contractually the MS coach's boss he has the right to have him run whatever he wants. If not he can educate, he can ask, he can persuade but he can't make the MS coach do anything. This is a vital distinction that head coaches have to make. Is your MS staff an extension of your HS staff, or a separate entity? Ours is one program and the MS guys are just coaching a different age group, but really the same positions, skills, terminology, and program. Easier to make the MS conform when you can fire them!
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Post by coachfloyd on Apr 30, 2015 18:46:06 GMT -6
It's hard as crap to get quality high school coaches. How in the world do you get guys to coach well in middle school?
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Post by indian1 on May 1, 2015 6:10:12 GMT -6
floyd,
3 out of the 4 guys who are on our Jr high staff played for us. If you can't find them, Grown them.
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Post by coachfloyd on May 1, 2015 7:13:10 GMT -6
floyd, 3 out of the 4 guys who are on our Jr high staff played for us. If you can't find them, Grown them. Ive had 2 guys who played for me coach varsity for me the last two years. I couldnt have spared them at the middle school. That was my point.
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Post by indian1 on May 1, 2015 9:17:45 GMT -6
floyd,
Its taken me a decade
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Post by gibbs72 on May 1, 2015 10:16:08 GMT -6
If you look at all the top programs in Texas, they all run a basic, simple version of the high school offense. I think this is the key: simple and basic. Our MS coaches sometimes turn into a "grab bag" plan where they just do things that are not fundamental nor are they something our high school staff will ever do. I honestly think they just get bored teaching fundamentals and base plays. Boredom might be the biggest thing to fight when staffing a middle school program.
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Post by 33coach on May 1, 2015 11:06:06 GMT -6
If you look at all the top programs in Texas, they all run a basic, simple version of the high school offense. I think this is the key: simple and basic. Our MS coaches sometimes turn into a "grab bag" plan where they just do things that are not fundamental nor are they something our high school staff will ever do. I honestly think they just get bored teaching fundamentals and base plays. Boredom might be the biggest thing to fight when staffing a middle school program. That's really unfortunate... We actually have good middle school programs here on the coast (I say middle school...really it's U14 because we arnt associated with schools). With quality coaches and tough teams that are (aside from a few) VERY SOUND. It's interesting that in other parts of the country that middle school is looked down on and still considered "daddy ball"..
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Post by gibbs72 on May 1, 2015 11:24:12 GMT -6
The DC on that staff is doing a great job trying to learn our defensive system and implement a simple version of it (he even helps my signal in calls and charting on Friday nights), but the HC/ OC in middle school doesn't do much to help out the HS with the grab bag approach.
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Post by hanagin on May 1, 2015 14:27:40 GMT -6
I coach MS. We try to do what the Varsity does. Communication is the real problem.
If they want us to help them, they have to make the time to help us. It's that simple. By running their stuff with their terms, we're helping them out long term. In the short term, they need to make it a biger priority to help us. After all, we aren't on their payroll and we aren't beholden to them for anything. I'm glad to help. I'm not glad to have to trot all over trying to make life easier on the HC or OC or DC when it's their desire that we all be on the same page. I'm happy enough just coaching what I know best, rather than what they want.
Too often, our various HCs have been big on inviting us to their summer workouts/meetings/practices instead of just sitting down and explaining their scheme stuff. I get the collegiality thing--that's a nice intention. But I end up hearing about all kinds of formations, plays, and adjustments that we'll never need or have the opportunity to perfect. What the Varsity needs to compete isn't what we need. They're getting to 11 on 11 in June; we'll see our kids in August. They'll play until November; we're done mid-October. They might easily get 60-70 offensive snaps a game; we average 27. It's different. I shouldn't have to take hours out of my summer on multiple occasions to sort through someone else's system for what we need at our level. You want me to use it, fine. Then you sit down with me and teach it.
They also like to say they'll run our football camp for us to help us install everything their way. They normally show up for a day or maybe two and then disappear, leaving us to do our best for the rest of it. Well, although getting stances right is cool and all, we'd kinda like some help with the actual mechanics of running the option because that's a pretty hard install when it's not your preference to use it.
Bottom line:
Be honest with the lower level guys. Sit them down, teach it to them. If you say you're going to help them, then do it. Don't make them come to you when it's you wanting their help.
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Post by 33coach on May 1, 2015 14:50:11 GMT -6
I coach MS. We try to do what the Varsity does. Communication is the real problem. If they want us to help them, they have to make the time to help us. It's that simple. By running their stuff with their terms, we're helping them out long term. In the short term, they need to make it a biger priority to help us. After all, we aren't on their payroll and we aren't beholden to them for anything. I'm glad to help. I'm not glad to have to trot all over trying to make life easier on the HC or OC or DC when it's their desire that we all be on the same page. I'm happy enough just coaching what I know best, rather than what they want. Too often, our various HCs have been big on inviting us to their summer workouts/meetings/practices instead of just sitting down and explaining their scheme stuff. I get the collegiality thing--that's a nice intention. But I end up hearing about all kinds of formations, plays, and adjustments that we'll never need or have the opportunity to perfect. What the Varsity needs to compete isn't what we need. They're getting to 11 on 11 in June; we'll see our kids in August. They'll play until November; we're done mid-October. They might easily get 60-70 offensive snaps a game; we average 27. It's different. I shouldn't have to take hours out of my summer on multiple occasions to sort through someone else's system for what we need at our level. You want me to use it, fine. Then you sit down with me and teach it. They also like to say they'll run our football camp for us to help us install everything their way. They normally show up for a day or maybe two and then disappear, leaving us to do our best for the rest of it. Well, although getting stances right is cool and all, we'd kinda like some help with the actual mechanics of running the option because that's a pretty hard install when it's not your preference to use it. Bottom line: Be honest with the lower level guys. Sit them down, teach it to them. If you say you're going to help them, then do it. Don't make them come to you when it's you wanting their help. Probably the best post in this whole thread. And exactly what I've seen...of your going to try to convince someone to run something different. You better sell it and sell out for it. Make it a priority. A few years ago, one of the Local HSs switched coaches and brought in a die hard triple guy. He wanted us to run it...he came to our first coaches meeting. Spoke about the triple. Dropped a playbook on the desk and we never heard from him again... We tried it for a week in camp..scrapped it because, as you guys know...you can't install a system from a playbook.....
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Post by coachd5085 on May 1, 2015 20:09:18 GMT -6
I think much of the bickering/division between youth/middle school football and HS football coaches (when such division does exist) comes when the HS coaches present an attitude that "HS football is what counts, lower levels exist just to support us"
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Post by gibbs72 on May 2, 2015 6:47:30 GMT -6
I would love to have a middle school staff that was excited about helping/ learning from the varsity staff. The past 3 summers, our varsity staff has put on the middle school team camp in the summer. Only 1 of the 3 MS coaches even show up. The one who does is very active trying to learn the defense, but the others do not attend. It's hard to put in the work with their kids (our future players) only to have the HC come to us a couple hours before their first practice asking for a "crash course" in our O & D. I don't deal well with that: either jump in the pool or stay on the side. Don't dip your toes in and tell me you want to swim.
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2015 8:18:34 GMT -6
I do not understand why it is necessary to coerce the MS to run your system. It not worth it on so many levels. Gibbs72 I think it on the head, if you get somebody who actively wants to run your systems great, but screw making forcing it to happen.
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Post by coachfloyd on May 2, 2015 8:52:20 GMT -6
How many places have coaches in place long enough to benefit from this? Best case scenario is that you need to run the same system for 4-5 years and thats just at the middle school. That would be minimum. The way coaches change now this almost never happens. Even where head coaches stay the same, the individual offensive and defensive systems usually change because the coordinators are moving on to head coaching jobs somewhere else. Then the next guy in has his own tweaks to the o or d at best and at worst runs something different all together. Then all that work was for nothing. Seems to me that this is one of those "clinic talk" items that in reality don't get put into practice all that much. Im not saying there aren't places that don't do it and do it well. But for the majority of us, its just not a practical thing to worry about.
Here is a very good example. There is a school in GA that ran wing-t forever and where very successful. Im sure they were running it all the way through their programs from youth to high school. But then they changed to Tony Franklin. All those years perfecting their old system were really for nothing. Kids that had run it from youth ball to 9th grade were really in no different of a situation than someone just coming into the program.
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Post by vince148 on May 2, 2015 10:10:46 GMT -6
I coach MS. We try to do what the Varsity does. Communication is the real problem. If they want us to help them, they have to make the time to help us. It's that simple. By running their stuff with their terms, we're helping them out long term. In the short term, they need to make it a biger priority to help us. After all, we aren't on their payroll and we aren't beholden to them for anything. I'm glad to help. I'm not glad to have to trot all over trying to make life easier on the HC or OC or DC when it's their desire that we all be on the same page. I'm happy enough just coaching what I know best, rather than what they want. Too often, our various HCs have been big on inviting us to their summer workouts/meetings/practices instead of just sitting down and explaining their scheme stuff. I get the collegiality thing--that's a nice intention. But I end up hearing about all kinds of formations, plays, and adjustments that we'll never need or have the opportunity to perfect. What the Varsity needs to compete isn't what we need. They're getting to 11 on 11 in June; we'll see our kids in August. They'll play until November; we're done mid-October. They might easily get 60-70 offensive snaps a game; we average 27. It's different. I shouldn't have to take hours out of my summer on multiple occasions to sort through someone else's system for what we need at our level. You want me to use it, fine. Then you sit down with me and teach it. They also like to say they'll run our football camp for us to help us install everything their way. They normally show up for a day or maybe two and then disappear, leaving us to do our best for the rest of it. Well, although getting stances right is cool and all, we'd kinda like some help with the actual mechanics of running the option because that's a pretty hard install when it's not your preference to use it. Bottom line: Be honest with the lower level guys. Sit them down, teach it to them. If you say you're going to help them, then do it. Don't make them come to you when it's you wanting their help. This was our biggest problem. The HC gave us a playbook of basic wing-t plays, but never gave us an install plan. Never sat down with us. Never told us his expectations. Never taught us anything. And since he was having his own issues at the varsity level, we just changed things.
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Post by 10dencyofdeception on May 3, 2015 5:54:16 GMT -6
At our middle school in TX, we do what we can to emulate the HS plays. Its extent tends to vary from year to year on the types of kids and athletes we have. We stress FAMILY, fundamentals, and a love for the game. New HC one yr wanted us to have the TX Tech hash to hash OLine splits. Sometimes Jr. High teams will employ unsound tactics with their better athletes in an effort to win. In this case, our opponent saw our splits, called time-out, and then had DBs shooting the gaps. They could get to the QB before he got the snap.
After scouting our HS opponent, entering hours of data in hudl, we're asked to come Friday night and also do any number of other things. I wonder if the HS coaches would have the time to go to the local college and do all that for them when they're busy trying to win games at the HS level. While also having the college coaches wonder why the HS coaches seem more concerned with the HS program.
I love helping all I can. But when it comes down to it, I think we have to what's best for the development of the kids, as they buy in to the overall program values.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2015 6:03:21 GMT -6
how do you get to be a hc and have no idea what you want to do schematically? I most everybody has an idea via madden, tv, or what have you, but how do you run TT wide splits with no concept of the most basic fundamentals? You think the snap might be important? Or getting out of your stance? I am not picking on anybody, but the more I read, the more I just... raise my blood pressure.
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Post by 10dencyofdeception on May 3, 2015 6:31:35 GMT -6
meshparker, if your Q is directed at me, I'm not sure I understand the question, but I'll try.
A consistent and quick shotgun or even pistol snap for 12 yr. olds can pose challenges from time to time. The HS scheme at the time allowed the large splits because simply rushing the interior gaps with DBs at the HS level compromises the integrity of the D. With a quick snap the 2nd level is out numbered by the OLs, as those rushing in take themselves out of the play.
We were eventually able to compromise and our 7th grade splits were fist to fist with their arms out, 8th was finger tip to tips. Teams were still tempted to rush, but we coached our line to short bucket step back and cut block when a rusher attempted to shoot up field in their assigned "step rule" for the play call. Our kids ended up loving the wide splits and cut blocking!
Glad you're fired up! And thanks for wanting to talk some football.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2015 6:39:10 GMT -6
meshparker, if your Q is directed at me, I'm not sure I understand the question, but I'll try. A consistent and quick shotgun or even pistol snap for 12 yr. olds can pose challenges from time to time. The HS scheme at the time allowed the large splits because simply rushing the interior gaps with DBs at the HS level compromises the integrity of the D. With a quick snap the 2nd level is out numbered by the OLs, as those rushing in take themselves out of the play. We were eventually able to compromise and our 7th grade splits were fist to fist with their arms out, 8th was finger tip to tips. Teams were still tempted to rush, but we coached our line to short bucket step back and cut block if you had a rusher shooting your play call "step rules". Our kids ended up loving the wide splits and cut blocking! Glad your fired up! And thanks for wanting to talk some football. I am not aiming anything at you. You are nowhere near the first to post that scenario, nor will you be the last. My rant was just that. I am glad you guys figured it out.
I face to many good to great athletes to cut in pass pro. And like zone blocking, I have yet to figure a way to really effectively teach cut blocking. We do a version of cut blocking but it ends up more times than not with my guys being on the ground.
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Post by 10dencyofdeception on May 3, 2015 6:56:50 GMT -6
Interesting.
I should also mention this concept was the Os bread and butter but it was never traditional pass pro on any level. Sure their was the quick pass play series. But this main concept had a wide QB sprint/roll out with a run or pass option. Play side G pulled just as wide, if no one showed to block or cut out there he "throttled down" his pull as he came back close the LOS. If a good pass wasn't there for the QB he would say "go, go, go" and the G would lead the way.
Simple, but it was moderately effective. Years 3 & 4 of this system had undefeated MS teams and HS made the playoffs. Not bad for a newly reopened HS.
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Post by coachjm on May 3, 2015 6:56:52 GMT -6
We have vertical schematic alignment from 3rd grade to 12th grade. To me this is best for all the kids due to the fact that they can build on skills that they learn at the previous age level. In other words, a 6th grader who has ran our scheme since 3rd grade will be better at this scheme then he would if he is learning it for the first time. It then gives him a greater chance of success in 6th grade not necessarily 12th grade though. Additionally, this gives us a template to work from to train coaches in and build off of. Ultimately, as the HC I oversee 7th-12th grade so we hired (recruited) a MS director that previously had run similar schemes and believed in our general philosophies, our youth program we stated that they could do whatever they chose to do that we were here to support them in any realm that they wanted or needed we ran clinics with them and in these interactions they felt it was best to have a common philosophy and asked us to organize a playbook for them. The long term vision (if our staff continues to coach here) would be to have our youth programs/MS programs/HS programs filled with former players who have prior knowledge of our scheme. It should also be noted that we give our coaches our 5 base run plays and 3 base pass plays and base defense they run those and then have the freedom to go where they want with it like all offenses there is tremendous flexibility in the scheme and different groups may look different to one another and that is fine!
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Post by 33coach on May 3, 2015 7:24:37 GMT -6
My general rule would be. That if a coach comes to me and says "you should run our stuff...it would really help..yadada"... My response is I want a document signed by the AD that promises you will be the head coach and running the EXACT same system 8 years in the future...
It never happens.
Coaches need to treat MS level as it's own level and not pre-freshman.
I wonder what some of you would do if the Local JC/Uni came down and said "you know we like recruiting from your school...itd really help out if you would run our stuff..."
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