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Post by jrk5150 on Mar 25, 2015 14:12:30 GMT -6
19delta - uh, unless you have some quantifiable criteria for who starts, like the guy who starts is the guy who completes more passes in this drill, or runs the fastest 40, or lifts the most, just about every starting decision you make is pretty much subjective. Might be a no-brainer that seems objective, but there is still a purely subjective component involved. I'm pretty sure you don't line your kids up and say first guy across the 40 starts at slot this week. Well, you might, but I would imagine that would be part of a bigger picture, not your sole criteria. The "quantifiable criteria" about who starts is easy in most cases...either a kid is the best player at his position or he isn't. Either he is productive or he isn't as productive as other kids at that position. Now, when you have several kids who are equally good, then other subjective criteria must be weighed. But, the most basic job of a football coach is to evaluate who the best player at each position is. There really isn't anything subjective about that. It should be obvious. I get it, I just disagree with your words, not that you can figure out which kid is better. Just saying it's not objective, it's almost always by definition going to be subjective around who plays/starts/is better. If you want objective, you have to look at quantifiable measures, like speed, strength, completion rates, whatever - which I'm sure is part of your overall picture. But when you say this kid does it better than that kid, that's where you add subjective into the equation. And that's fine, that's how it works! I was only disagreeing with your slippery slope comment by pointing out that you make equally subjective decisions all the time, so it's really not that big of a stretch. Look - NFL GM's and coaches get millions of $'s to try to turn subjective into objective the best they can, and they're wrong all the time. Damn - I really didn't want to get into splitting hairs, I apologize. I'm just going to fall more on the side of character - I would rather lose with good guys than win with a*sholes. Just my thing.
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Post by fantom on Mar 25, 2015 14:13:58 GMT -6
How about if he's not performing up to what he's capable of, in my opinion, but is still clearly better than his backup? I'm talking about his performance on the field, not his potential as an athlete. I have a guy who isn't overtly loafing at practice, doesn't break any rules, is a better football player at his position than anybody else, but isn't performing as well as the coaches think that he should. Do I bench him? Great example, and even with details tough to say. But, here, I would tend to agree with your point that you play him. I THOUGHT, and could be wrong, that the OP was alluding to some lacking in effort and attitude. That's also why I put a "-" around "just" performance. I will modify my response to be about effort. Is the kid giving you right right effort? A lack of performance can be the result of a lot of things that don't warrant punishment - could be a lack of confidence for example, where punishment would likely backfire and make it worse. I certainly agree about a guy who looks the part but doesn't play the part due to lack of effort. My first year at my present school we had a kid who looked great. He was about 6'2", 200 lbs., a basketball player, and a nice kid. At our last practice that year, though, I commented to the other coaches that I had no idea how fast the kid was, though, because I'd never seen him try to run fast. He looked good coming off of the bus but was strictly a garbage time player.
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Post by 19coach78 on Mar 25, 2015 15:02:08 GMT -6
We had two of these guys transfer out and go to another school. When they announced it...(which they were trying to do it Lebron style) the weight room cheered like they won a state title. Addition by subtraction. These guys did us a favor. For that...I thank them. The OP's situation is EXACTLY what we were dealing with. The guys "were" D1 guys...in their mind. And if you told them they weren't...you were a "hater". Just look at what their parents spewed on social media. In the end...it's not our problem now...and will really help us move forward. Currently...my favorite saying right now... "The Best Teams are made up of a bunch of nobodies who love Everybody and Serve Anybody and Don’t care about being a Somebody "
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Post by 19coach78 on Mar 25, 2015 15:02:52 GMT -6
Now thats going on a T Shirt and my next Email to the Players !!
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Post by coachfloyd on Mar 25, 2015 15:42:55 GMT -6
The kids always have to know you won't play them. Had a kid last year who just dogged it in the weight room. Supreme talent. We are talking big time d1 running back. Rushed for 1000 as a junior. He was off the radar for most because he didn't attend camps or combines and we had another rb that overshadowed him his junior year. I spent most of that year bencing him. And he still rushed for 1000. Offseason going into his senior year he didn't give a lot of effort. So I told him he wouldn't play for me. During spring bunch of teams including gt came to watch him. He's a perfect b back. He didn't get one carry. I told him he was either going to be the best player we ever had or I was going to make him quit. He spent half the summer fighting it but finally bought in. First game rushed for 104 yards on 12 carries and 4tds. He was unreal. Then he broke his leg. His crappy junior year screwed him because now he needed that senior year and wouldn't get it. I should have done that a year earlier. I did him a disservice by not going hardball from the beginning.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2015 15:53:25 GMT -6
We live by the motto "Everybody is wanted, nobody is needed" and go from there. If they think their sh!t doesn't stink 9 times out of 10 they usually have an attitude to go w/it. Problem I have is...none of mine are DI caliber. He!!, some are barely DIII caliber?! Duece
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Post by 19delta on Mar 25, 2015 16:09:24 GMT -6
Damn - I really didn't want to get into splitting hairs, I apologize. I'm just going to fall more on the side of character - I would rather lose with good guys than win with a*sholes. Just my thing. But how often are things ever that black and white? In my experience, it's not zero sum. Most kids are going to be somewhere on the a-hole to high character spectrum but seldom on one extreme or the other. Again...we aren't talking about a bad kid. We are talking about a kid whose work ethic doesn't match his talent. That doesn't make a kid an a-hole. The kids who are a-holes...well...that's easy to deal with (assuming by "a-hole" you mean a kid who is violating team rules). Either they stop being an a-hole or they don't get to play. But that's not the case here (unless it is and the OP simply hasn't stated that about this particular kid). In a case like this, I don't think the solution is to be punitive. Instead, the BEST course of action is to somehow demonstrate to the player that if he gave a better effort in the weight room or on the practice field, it would only build upon his substantial natural ability and make him an even better (and more marketable) player. Get that player to understand that if he wants to play football in college, the players are going to be significantly better than the kids he plays against in high school. That's really the most effective thing you can do. Get the kid out of the kiddie pool and show him what the deep end by the 15' diving board looks like.
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Post by veerman on Mar 25, 2015 16:21:02 GMT -6
The kids always have to know you won't play them. Had a kid last year who just dogged it in the weight room. Supreme talent. We are talking big time d1 running back. Rushed for 1000 as a junior. He was off the radar for most because he didn't attend camps or combines and we had another rb that overshadowed him his junior year. I spent most of that year bencing him. And he still rushed for 1000. Offseason going into his senior year he didn't give a lot of effort. So I told him he wouldn't play for me. During spring bunch of teams including gt came to watch him. He's a perfect b back. He didn't get one carry. I told him he was either going to be the best player we ever had or I was going to make him quit. He spent half the summer fighting it but finally bought in. First game rushed for 104 yards on 12 carries and 4tds. He was unreal. Then he broke his leg. His crappy junior year screwed him because now he needed that senior year and wouldn't get it. I should have done that a year earlier. I did him a disservice by not going hardball from the beginning. Don't think major D1 would have given him a scholarship regardless if he broke his leg his SR yr..
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Post by jgordon1 on Mar 25, 2015 16:31:09 GMT -6
I usually like to "appeal to a higher motive" meaning that it is up to you to leave a legacy.
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Post by coachfloyd on Mar 25, 2015 19:37:56 GMT -6
The kids always have to know you won't play them. Had a kid last year who just dogged it in the weight room. Supreme talent. We are talking big time d1 running back. Rushed for 1000 as a junior. He was off the radar for most because he didn't attend camps or combines and we had another rb that overshadowed him his junior year. I spent most of that year bencing him. And he still rushed for 1000. Offseason going into his senior year he didn't give a lot of effort. So I told him he wouldn't play for me. During spring bunch of teams including gt came to watch him. He's a perfect b back. He didn't get one carry. I told him he was either going to be the best player we ever had or I was going to make him quit. He spent half the summer fighting it but finally bought in. First game rushed for 104 yards on 12 carries and 4tds. He was unreal. Then he broke his leg. His crappy junior year screwed him because now he needed that senior year and wouldn't get it. I should have done that a year earlier. I did him a disservice by not going hardball from the beginning. Don't think major D1 would have given him a scholarship regardless if he broke his leg his SR yr.. Glad you feel that way. Ha. This dude was legit. I would be glad to send you some film. Probably would have been a juco then d1 but he was special. 205 and ran 4.38 the first time I clocked him. Even if Im wrong he's still fast and large. Btw I just put a rb at San diego state last year and started a new school this week who has one going to South Carolina. This guy was better than both and I don't think it was even close. But we will never know because he didn't get to show his full potential.
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Post by veerman on Mar 25, 2015 19:57:45 GMT -6
Never said he wasn't legit player. My point is that major college is a business. I'm sure that he was just as good as you say, but to say that the reason why he didn't get a scholarship was because he didn't have a great jr, and not cause he broke his leg (which is Very Serious) is a little far fetched IMO.
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Post by olcoach53 on Mar 26, 2015 5:17:31 GMT -6
19delta that's kind of my point. Of course that kid is going to play, he's got to play and he knows it. But I think you can change his thinking/work ethic without benching him in a game. I mean, we are in March right now, not August. Now is the time to create the "earning" environment. Actually I think this area is one of my biggest strengths as a coach. When our defense got together and did the 2 positive/1 negative team building exercise one of the positive comments they made about me was "you have no favorites, everyone is equal". For me they really are but all of that stems from my relationship with them and the consistency of that. I feel like this can and should be handled in practice or in the weight room, especially during camp. Because there is going to come a time during camp where a top player is not playing or working to the level expected of him and I am going to get on him and he is going to handle it a few different ways but many of those ways may get the entire defense doing up/downs, may even end up getting him sent home from practice. Now I'm not a tyrant, I will follow up and tell him I love him and all that stuff but he needs to understand that I am not really "asking". The bi-product of that is when you as a coach call out the "big dog" the rest of the kids know he's the big dog and if you will send him home, you definitely won't hesitate to send them. Yes I know we need him, yes I know it's important that he be there but honestly I personally would rather lose with a bunch of hard working kids who are giving everything they've got than to win with a bunch lazy athletic guys who can win by playing half@ssed. Last year our starting MIKE backer: 6'2" 225 - Hardest working kid in the weightroom. Team leader. Great kid. But I could not for the life of me get him to come down hill and be aggressive at linebacker. He wanted to stay at LB depth and just run side to side, we talked about it, I b!tched about, we practiced it, but still no change. Well, he had a thigh bruise and didn't play in our last scrimmage and I played another kid at MIKE and I blitzed him almost constantly because he was little (5'8") and just couldn't get off blocks. Going into game 1's practice the backup took all the first reps with the #1 defense and the 6'2" kid subbed in. We get all the way to Thursday and the 6'2" kid comes up to me after practice and says "is Sam starting tomorrow night?" I said "yes." He said "why?" I said "well, he scrimmaged better than you did. In your scrimmage you had a few tackles, you still weren't decisive on your reads, and you weren't aggressive. He was in the last scrimmage." The look on his face was priceless. I don't think he had ever felt that level of anger before. He explodes "that's phukin bullchit, I didn't bust my F'in @$$ for 2 MF'in years to watch my senior year." I replied "then I suggest you start being more aggressive, reading your key and doing what you're supposed to do and trusting your teammates to do their job or that is EXACTLY what is going to happen." He walked away and I chuckled to myself because I knew right then that he was going to have a great year. The other kid started, played 1 series and then I put the 6'2" kid in...guess what...he read his keys, he was fast, decisive, down hill and very aggressive. Played great.Behind the scenes - you don't think every kid on our team knew he didn't start? and if I won't start him...right? Heck, the LB I had a few years ago who just finished up at Alabama...I threw him out of practice at least once a year and I benched him in a game. If he didn't learn how to handle a little adversity from me in high school how in the heck could he have ever played for Saban without going on suicide watch?I think you've got to hold them to it or else you are just hurting that kid in the future. What the heck do you think you're doing making kids accountable! How dare you Coach....HOW DARE YOU! This is total sarcasm in case anybody was wondering.
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Post by olcoach53 on Mar 26, 2015 6:07:09 GMT -6
The follow up: The 5'8" kid is a great kid, played in spots. He knew he definitely wasn't better than the 6'2" kid. He played mainly special teams. olcoach53 - the greatest part of that whole story is the reaction of his parents when I didn't start him. I didn't hear a single word from them. Not a peep, they treated me the same as they always had. At the end of the season I pulled them aside and thanked them for allowing me to "drive" their son in game 1. They just laughed and said "his playing time is between you and him, we are supportive no matter what." I have to say one of the greatest thing about coaching at the private school was those parents expected you to drive and be hard on their kids. I'm sure the HC had to deal with some stuff from some parents, IDK, but if he did it was minimal, nothing like we've dealt with at some public schools. On the Alabama kid - the night I benched him, a little scene took place on the bench to the point where I said "you know what, you're done, go play offense." His mom and grandpa were sitting in the first row right above us and after my conversation with the kid they were clapping. The next series the kid goes back out, but I had replaced him. He comes jogging off, comes over and says "when do I go back in?" I said "for me? Never. Go play running back." he wandered away and came back a few minutes later and says "alright. my bad. you're right. I was bullchittin." So I put him back in. Later, on a plane ride back from a visit he says "you know, you're the first coach to ever bench me." I said "well chit, you're a great player but you ain't necessary if you're just doing whatever you want." His first year at Alabama he screwed up a kickoff coverage and the camera is on him as Saban is ripping him on the sideline and he got replaced on kickoff. The next day I called him and asked him if everything was alright. He said "yea, it's cool. He ain't the first MFer to bench me." HAHAHAHA. I feel like with that kid, that was my biggest contribution to his development. I mean he grew to be 6'2" 235 lbs, could run, had instincts, etc. That was womb given, I didn't coach that. I tried to teach him to think the game and how to handle adversity. Coach, both of those are awesome examples of parents allowing coaches to coach and not stepping on any toes. I wish there were more parents like that, unfortunately most parents think that their kids are the next Joe Mantegna and expect them to play and play a lot.
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Post by 19delta on Mar 26, 2015 8:23:05 GMT -6
19delta that's kind of my point. Of course that kid is going to play, he's got to play and he knows it. But I think you can change his thinking/work ethic without benching him in a game. I mean, we are in March right now, not August. Now is the time to create the "earning" environment. Actually I think this area is one of my biggest strengths as a coach. When our defense got together and did the 2 positive/1 negative team building exercise one of the positive comments they made about me was "you have no favorites, everyone is equal". For me they really are but all of that stems from my relationship with them and the consistency of that. I feel like this can and should be handled in practice or in the weight room, especially during camp. Because there is going to come a time during camp where a top player is not playing or working to the level expected of him and I am going to get on him and he is going to handle it a few different ways but many of those ways may get the entire defense doing up/downs, may even end up getting him sent home from practice. Now I'm not a tyrant, I will follow up and tell him I love him and all that stuff but he needs to understand that I am not really "asking". The bi-product of that is when you as a coach call out the "big dog" the rest of the kids know he's the big dog and if you will send him home, you definitely won't hesitate to send them. Yes I know we need him, yes I know it's important that he be there but honestly I personally would rather lose with a bunch of hard working kids who are giving everything they've got than to win with a bunch lazy athletic guys who can win by playing half@ssed. Last year our starting MIKE backer: 6'2" 225 - Hardest working kid in the weightroom. Team leader. Great kid. But I could not for the life of me get him to come down hill and be aggressive at linebacker. He wanted to stay at LB depth and just run side to side, we talked about it, I b!tched about, we practiced it, but still no change. Well, he had a thigh bruise and didn't play in our last scrimmage and I played another kid at MIKE and I blitzed him almost constantly because he was little (5'8") and just couldn't get off blocks. Going into game 1's practice the backup took all the first reps with the #1 defense and the 6'2" kid subbed in. We get all the way to Thursday and the 6'2" kid comes up to me after practice and says "is Sam starting tomorrow night?" I said "yes." He said "why?" I said "well, he scrimmaged better than you did. In your scrimmage you had a few tackles, you still weren't decisive on your reads, and you weren't aggressive. He was in the last scrimmage." The look on his face was priceless. I don't think he had ever felt that level of anger before. He explodes "that's phukin bullchit, I didn't bust my F'in @$$ for 2 MF'in years to watch my senior year." I replied "then I suggest you start being more aggressive, reading your key and doing what you're supposed to do and trusting your teammates to do their job or that is EXACTLY what is going to happen." He walked away and I chuckled to myself because I knew right then that he was going to have a great year. The other kid started, played 1 series and then I put the 6'2" kid in...guess what...he read his keys, he was fast, decisive, down hill and very aggressive. Played great.Behind the scenes - you don't think every kid on our team knew he didn't start? and if I won't start him...right? Heck, the LB I had a few years ago who just finished up at Alabama...I threw him out of practice at least once a year and I benched him in a game. If he didn't learn how to handle a little adversity from me in high school how in the heck could he have ever played for Saban without going on suicide watch?I think you've got to hold them to it or else you are just hurting that kid in the future. What the heck do you think you're doing making kids accountable! How dare you Coach....HOW DARE YOU! This is total sarcasm in case anybody was wondering. I wonder if the 5'8" kid was in on it. I wonder if he knew, going into that first game, that he was simply a pawn.
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Post by 19delta on Mar 26, 2015 8:42:23 GMT -6
The follow up: The 5'8" kid is a great kid, played in spots. He knew he definitely wasn't better than the 6'2" kid. He played mainly special teams. I'm glad the 5'8" kid handled it well. That is a real credit to him (and perhaps to you) With that being said, I don't like using kids as props. I've seen this before...Johnny the Stud is late to practice or there is some other transgression or the coaches just want to make some kind of "point" so Johnny is told that he isn't going to start the game and Billy the Sap is going to start in his place. Billy gets a ton of work during the week and actually thinks he is getting a legit chance to show what he can do. Then Friday night roles around. Billy starts the game and plays the first series (or maybe only the first snap) and then Johnny the Stud is sent in. Billy comes to the sideline and doesn't see the field for the rest of the game. IMO, that is complete chicken$hit to jerk a kid around like that. I have read enough of your posts over the year to give you the benefit of the doubt. I'm sure you handled the situation professionally and the reason you chose that particular 5'8" kid to make your point is because you knew he could handle what you were doing. But, I have seen too many coaches use this "motivational tactic" and screw over a lot of kids who didn't realize they were being used as a prop.
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Post by coachfloyd on Mar 26, 2015 9:33:15 GMT -6
Never said he wasn't legit player. My point is that major college is a business. I'm sure that he was just as good as you say, but to say that the reason why he didn't get a scholarship was because he didn't have a great jr, and not cause he broke his leg (which is Very Serious) is a little far fetched IMO. That's very possible. My point was I should have full out fired him instead of demoting and rehiring over and over as a junior. But had he rushed for 2000 yards it might have made some people notice. He was about to start getting it 25 times a game.
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Post by coachfloyd on Mar 26, 2015 9:34:40 GMT -6
The follow up: The 5'8" kid is a great kid, played in spots. He knew he definitely wasn't better than the 6'2" kid. He played mainly special teams. olcoach53 - the greatest part of that whole story is the reaction of his parents when I didn't start him. I didn't hear a single word from them. Not a peep, they treated me the same as they always had. At the end of the season I pulled them aside and thanked them for allowing me to "drive" their son in game 1. They just laughed and said "his playing time is between you and him, we are supportive no matter what." I have to say one of the greatest thing about coaching at the private school was those parents expected you to drive and be hard on their kids. I'm sure the HC had to deal with some stuff from some parents, IDK, but if he did it was minimal, nothing like we've dealt with at some public schools. On the Alabama kid - the night I benched him, a little scene took place on the bench to the point where I said "you know what, you're done, go play offense." His mom and grandpa were sitting in the first row right above us and after my conversation with the kid they were clapping. The next series the kid goes back out, but I had replaced him. He comes jogging off, comes over and says "when do I go back in?" I said "for me? Never. Go play running back." he wandered away and came back a few minutes later and says "alright. my bad. you're right. I was bullchittin." So I put him back in. Later, on a plane ride back from a visit he says "you know, you're the first coach to ever bench me." I said "well chit, you're a great player but you ain't necessary if you're just doing whatever you want." His first year at Alabama he screwed up a kickoff coverage and the camera is on him as Saban is ripping him on the sideline and he got replaced on kickoff. The next day I called him and asked him if everything was alright. He said "yea, it's cool. He ain't the first MFer to bench me." HAHAHAHA. I feel like with that kid, that was my biggest contribution to his development. I mean he grew to be 6'2" 235 lbs, could run, had instincts, etc. That was womb given, I didn't coach that. I tried to teach him to think the game and how to handle adversity. That's awesome
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Post by silkyice on Mar 26, 2015 10:00:42 GMT -6
The follow up: The 5'8" kid is a great kid, played in spots. He knew he definitely wasn't better than the 6'2" kid. He played mainly special teams. I'm glad the 5'8" kid handled it well. That is a real credit to him (and perhaps to you) With that being said, I don't like using kids as props. I've seen this before...Johnny the Stud is late to practice or there is some other transgression or the coaches just want to make some kind of "point" so Johnny is told that he isn't going to start the game and Billy the Sap is going to start in his place. Billy gets a ton of work during the week and actually thinks he is getting a legit chance to show what he can do. Then Friday night roles around. Billy starts the game and plays the first series (or maybe only the first snap) and then Johnny the Stud is sent in. Billy comes to the sideline and doesn't see the field for the rest of the game. IMO, that is complete chicken$hit to jerk a kid around like that. I have read enough of your posts over the year to give you the benefit of the doubt. I'm sure you handled the situation professionally and the reason you chose that particular 5'8" kid to make your point is because you knew he could handle what you were doing. But, I have seen too many coaches use this "motivational tactic" and screw over a lot of kids who didn't realize they were being used as a prop. I get what you are saying but that 5'8" son of a gun gets to tell his grandkids he started over a stud that played LB for Nick Saban. Bet his dang proud of that, used or not. Every kid has a role to play. That was his. And I bet dcohio handled it right, just like you said.
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Post by silkyice on Mar 26, 2015 10:01:52 GMT -6
double post
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Post by 19delta on Mar 26, 2015 12:18:30 GMT -6
I didn't use the kid as a prop. The 5'8" kid was legitimately our next best MIKE linebacker and I would have played him throughout. He got replaced that early because he couldn't get off of the guard on midline because the guard was 6'4" and he was 5'8"...he just didn't have the arm length to gain the separation. He had been the backup throughout camp and through the first 2 scrimmages, but got to start and play in the 3rd scrimmage due to the thigh bruise. We are brutally honest with our kids, at no point in time do they wonder where they stand or what their position is on the team. That's difficult at first and sometimes a hard pill for them to swallow but it's reality. This is done at our end of year meetings and position coaches meet with each player on thursday before every game/scrimmage. So a kid knows thursday exactly what's what on game day and why. The meeting is with every position player varsity and JV, so the understand for the JV players is the same for their game. Like I said...I've read enough of your posts over the many years I have been a member of this forum to know that you don't generally jerk kids around and you have high standards that you hold everyone in your organization to. But I have never personally seen a coach pull this move off without it leaving a bad taste in someone's mouth. I applaud you for having the kind of relationship with your players that being able to do something like this works out well for everyone involved.
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