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Post by olinedude on Feb 11, 2015 12:20:48 GMT -6
If you take away middle school tackle football in schools you are massively stunting the development of football players. Our MS coaches are terrible and I can tell you first hand they are behind until usually their soph/junior year.
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Post by dg1694 on Feb 11, 2015 12:43:23 GMT -6
My son will start tackle next fall (5th grade). Up until now, it's been 7on7 to learn how to throw, catch, and change direction and break down. Our team will be at practice and see tackle teams sharing the park; honestly those teams do more standing around than getting any reps. I see a lot of meaningless grass drills and literally 2-3 minutes between plays. Meanwhile, we a getting off about 35 pass plays in a 20 minute team segment. The completion percentage is also pretty high- and we call ACTUAL 5 man pass patterns. So, who is learning more football?
I believe that anything taught properly is worthwhile and can be done at a young age; we just made the compromise of contact at 5th grade (10 or so) because a lot of my parents were concerned about the physical development of their sons until then.
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Post by oriolepower on Feb 11, 2015 13:44:24 GMT -6
And that is why I don't believe in Sharks.
I tell my students frequently that I don't believe in sharks. I say it to prove the point that people will believe what they want to believe and it is impossible to prove something to someone that won't rationally look at the evidence. Just trust me that I can make compelling arguments as to why sharks aren't real.
The research is not complete. Current research points to a correlation between early starting and extended exposure to tackle football. Correlational studies are really a problem in themselves. ie, I have a hot wife and I drink diet pepsi so I must have a hot wife because I drink diet pepsi.
I think we all would agree that football is a great sport and we think kids should participate. If not, I'm not sure why you are on this discussion board. The question becomes how do we keep the good and not have to deal with the garbage that accompanies our sport.
The facts are that some youth tackle football programs are bad for kids and some are good for kids. It is our job to eliminate the bad ones and promote the good ones. If we don't act as guardians to the game, Moms, lawyers, and politicians will tell us how to play the game.
Read the research, don't just read someone's interpretation of the research. Be an advocate for how things should be in your communities.
Personally I believe tackle football games should not be played before the age of 13. Notice I say games. Skills can be taught in pads. Flag and backyard football can be played anywhere. There is research on neck strength in 13 year olds vs younger students as well as brain development studies that back that up.
Young kids want to put on pads and pretend to be football players. Let them WANT to play football so they know it is something that is precious and needs to be worked for, not just the sport of the month that everyone else does.
That's my rant and I still don't believe in sharks.
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Post by coachfloyd on Feb 11, 2015 13:50:20 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2015 13:54:38 GMT -6
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Post by mahonz on Feb 21, 2015 14:35:49 GMT -6
Interesting Thread.
I have been coaching football forever. Mostly youth...sat on a number of Youth Boards...I even owned a Semi Pro team for a few years...coached at the HS level as a Gopher for a few years...coached flag from Kindergarten to Adult level...created a league or two...Camps...Jamborees...and a few other things I cant remember.
I am absolutely convinced that in today's "Market" if youth tackle football didn't exist then neither would HS tackle football. Why? Your players would begin to care more about World Cup stuff than the Super Bowl.
You are living in a Fantasy World to think otherwise and the Parents are going to sign their kids up to play something because they need a free babysitting service since most households require two incomes to survive anymore. That is just the way it is so why not pick youth football?
Also Flag is 10 times more dangerous than Tackle at any level. You cant curb aggression so its best to put the pads on the kids and allow it.
So...love it or hate it...HS Coaches NEED youth football.
Here is an interesting stat since I started keeping track 20 years ago. Of the youth players I have coached, roughly 60% have started on their HS Varsity Teams and roughly 15% have / are played College ball. The last Class of 8th graders I coached are now Sophomores in College as far as age goes. I'd like to think I had a little something to do with that. All I care about is that I teach them how to love the game even when there is no way they are good / mature enough to even be playing the game. If they at least love the game, then when they show up to play HS ball they are fully committed to put in the work. And I hope to accomplish this love before the Sokker people get their fangs in them. You all have no clue how hard that is to do anymore.....and Lacrosse aint too far behind either. Fortunately that Sport is too hard to play when you are 4 years old ! Sokker is...easy to play for kids that young and Parents like easy.
I love this Forum but its odd that so many here think youth football is a bad thing. Most of what I read that is negative is pure speculation and pretty far off base.
My take.
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Post by CoachM58 on Feb 21, 2015 14:45:13 GMT -6
I started playing competitive full contact football in the 3rd grade. K-2 was flag. When the game is taught properly I don't see an issue with contact vs flag. Coaches LL-HS should be mandated to take a head/spinal injury seminar before every season.
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Post by Coach Bennett on Feb 21, 2015 16:20:43 GMT -6
I know we've lost a lot of kids b/c of youth football, and it isn't always because of coaching. I'm sure other leagues have something similar but if a player weighs too much, they can't play a skill position. Sometimes that's enough for them to go do something else.
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Post by mahonz on Feb 21, 2015 17:20:38 GMT -6
I know we've lost a lot of kids b/c of youth football, and it isn't always because of coaching. I'm sure other leagues have something similar but if a player weighs too much, they can't play a skill position. Sometimes that's enough for them to go do something else. Capping weights actually promotes growth. True unlimited weight formats tend to scare the under-educated which is most every Parent that signs their kids up to play for the first time. I have always coached under an unlimited weight format that has caps for certain positions up to a certain level of play. Organizations that cap weights for all positions like Pop Warner lend themselves well to the smaller areas that cant field individual teams by grade. But that is a whole other discussion. BTW...unlimited weight formats with caps on certain positions are now outpacing limited weight formats but it is rare to see true unlimited weight formats. If a kid is disappointed that he must play OL or DL I simply remind him of how the NFL Draft goes now a day...and throw em a few footballs from the TE position. I also remind them what happens when they show up day one to play Freshman HS ball when there are 40 skill players competing for 13 positions and 15 Lineman competing for 9 positions. The odds of playing as a Linemen right away are far better because Linemen are like gold and pretty boys are a dime a dozen. I will also hand them a Ryan Clady poster to cover up their Peyton Manning poster at home.
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Post by fballcoachg on Feb 21, 2015 19:02:17 GMT -6
Interesting Thread. I have been coaching football forever. Mostly youth...sat on a number of Youth Boards...I even owned a Semi Pro team for a few years...coached at the HS level as a Gopher for a few years...coached flag from Kindergarten to Adult level...created a league or two...Camps...Jamborees...and a few other things I cant remember. I am absolutely convinced that in today's "Market" if youth tackle football didn't exist then neither would HS tackle football. Why? Your players would begin to care more about World Cup stuff than the Super Bowl. You are living in a Fantasy World to think otherwise and the Parents are going to sign their kids up to play something because they need a free babysitting service since most households require two incomes to survive anymore. That is just the way it is so why not pick youth football? Also Flag is 10 times more dangerous than Tackle at any level. You cant curb aggression so its best to put the pads on the kids and allow it. So...love it or hate it...HS Coaches NEED youth football. Here is an interesting stat since I started keeping track 20 years ago. Of the youth players I have coached, roughly 60% have started on their HS Varsity Teams and roughly 15% have / are played College ball. The last Class of 8th graders I coached are now Sophomores in College as far as age goes. I'd like to think I had a little something to do with that. All I care about is that I teach them how to love the game even when there is no way they are good / mature enough to even be playing the game. If they at least love the game, then when they show up to play HS ball they are fully committed to put in the work. And I hope to accomplish this love before the Sokker people get their fangs in them. You all have no clue how hard that is to do anymore.....and Lacrosse aint too far behind either. Fortunately that Sport is too hard to play when you are 4 years old ! Sokker is...easy to play for kids that young and Parents like easy. I love this Forum but its odd that so many here think youth football is a bad thing. Most of what I read that is negative is pure speculation and pretty far off base. My take. Devil's advocate...our league had 3 state champions this year, 2 the previous year, regularly competes in at least 2 championship games...none of those communities have youth ball. If you have youth ball work with them and try and make it a positive experience just like any football experience should be, if you don't have it it is not the end of the world.
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Post by mahonz on Feb 21, 2015 20:46:18 GMT -6
Interesting Thread. I have been coaching football forever. Mostly youth...sat on a number of Youth Boards...I even owned a Semi Pro team for a few years...coached at the HS level as a Gopher for a few years...coached flag from Kindergarten to Adult level...created a league or two...Camps...Jamborees...and a few other things I cant remember. I am absolutely convinced that in today's "Market" if youth tackle football didn't exist then neither would HS tackle football. Why? Your players would begin to care more about World Cup stuff than the Super Bowl. You are living in a Fantasy World to think otherwise and the Parents are going to sign their kids up to play something because they need a free babysitting service since most households require two incomes to survive anymore. That is just the way it is so why not pick youth football? Also Flag is 10 times more dangerous than Tackle at any level. You cant curb aggression so its best to put the pads on the kids and allow it. So...love it or hate it...HS Coaches NEED youth football. Here is an interesting stat since I started keeping track 20 years ago. Of the youth players I have coached, roughly 60% have started on their HS Varsity Teams and roughly 15% have / are played College ball. The last Class of 8th graders I coached are now Sophomores in College as far as age goes. I'd like to think I had a little something to do with that. All I care about is that I teach them how to love the game even when there is no way they are good / mature enough to even be playing the game. If they at least love the game, then when they show up to play HS ball they are fully committed to put in the work. And I hope to accomplish this love before the Sokker people get their fangs in them. You all have no clue how hard that is to do anymore.....and Lacrosse aint too far behind either. Fortunately that Sport is too hard to play when you are 4 years old ! Sokker is...easy to play for kids that young and Parents like easy. I love this Forum but its odd that so many here think youth football is a bad thing. Most of what I read that is negative is pure speculation and pretty far off base. My take. Devil's advocate...our league had 3 state champions this year, 2 the previous year, regularly competes in at least 2 championship games...none of those communities have youth ball. If you have youth ball work with them and try and make it a positive experience just like any football experience should be, if you don't have it it is not the end of the world. Curious. How do you have 3 State Champions from one League? Is this one of those regional Bowl Games deal like they do in California? And I do agree with your thoughts but firmly believe that youth programs do help with numbers for the HS Programs for any Sport. Do these communities have MS Sports? We do not have any MS Sports here and haven't for over 20 years so when I say "youth" that is thru the 8th grade.
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Post by fballcoachg on Feb 21, 2015 21:41:55 GMT -6
Devil's advocate...our league had 3 state champions this year, 2 the previous year, regularly competes in at least 2 championship games...none of those communities have youth ball. If you have youth ball work with them and try and make it a positive experience just like any football experience should be, if you don't have it it is not the end of the world. Curious. How do you have 3 State Champions from one League? Is this one of those regional Bowl Games deal like they do in California? And I do agree with your thoughts but firmly believe that youth programs do help with numbers for the HS Programs for any Sport. Do these communities have MS Sports? We do not have any MS Sports here and haven't for over 20 years so when I say "youth" that is thru the 8th grade. No, it is state champion...Ohio. The league has 10 teams but they span 3 divisions/classifications. Before the state split to 7 divisions and was 6 they still had 2 teams regularly in the hunt. Yes there are MS sports, 7th and 8th grade are the only years organized tackle football is offered. There are 2 or 3 schools with youth football but they have never really been a factor, 1 that will make the playoffs here or there the other two are real bad (not saying that is the reason why but interesting nonetheless). A helping factor is that there isn't soccer at the high school level but the retention rate of MS to HS is much higher than most places with youth football. There are some unique factors in the area but it's still an interesting sample that goes contrary to many beliefs that youth football is integral to a successful HS program.
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Post by mahonz on Feb 21, 2015 23:26:32 GMT -6
Curious. How do you have 3 State Champions from one League? Is this one of those regional Bowl Games deal like they do in California? And I do agree with your thoughts but firmly believe that youth programs do help with numbers for the HS Programs for any Sport. Do these communities have MS Sports? We do not have any MS Sports here and haven't for over 20 years so when I say "youth" that is thru the 8th grade. No, it is state champion...Ohio. The league has 10 teams but they span 3 divisions/classifications. Before the state split to 7 divisions and was 6 they still had 2 teams regularly in the hunt. Yes there are MS sports, 7th and 8th grade are the only years organized tackle football is offered. There are 2 or 3 schools with youth football but they have never really been a factor, 1 that will make the playoffs here or there the other two are real bad (not saying that is the reason why but interesting nonetheless). A helping factor is that there isn't soccer at the high school level but the retention rate of MS to HS is much higher than most places with youth football. There are some unique factors in the area but it's still an interesting sample that goes contrary to many beliefs that youth football is integral to a successful HS program. Interesting. There exists a distinct conduit from the youth sports programs into HS here in Denver. I think it has a lot to do with the fact that MS Sports has been getting dropped District by District since the late 80's. I actively recruit kids to play youth football every off season. And it gets little bit more difficult with each passing season. It doesn't help that Football is the last Sport that pretty much respects a traditional season. The better HS FB Programs maintain an excellent working relationship with the local youth FB Programs. Its a two way street....as it should be. Same deal when I lived in Phoenix but Sokker is certainly king there with the deep Mexican heritage that exists.
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Post by fballcoachg on Feb 22, 2015 7:14:03 GMT -6
Who knows, it may very well be the 89 year old grandma that smokes a pack a day, drinks gin, and as healthy as can be.
Getting rid of middle school sports is rough...and I agree that football being the last remaining "in season sport" doesn't help. All the AAU, summer ball, fall ball, club coaches promising scholarships or convincing parents their kid needs to specialize has really hurt all sports.
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creid
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Post by creid on Feb 22, 2015 13:28:20 GMT -6
...and get rid of video games. Make them go outside and play. Absolutely. Agreed! Did not allow my son to play until 9th grade. Would have considered playing in grade 8, but the youth team was in flux.
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creid
Sophomore Member
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Post by creid on Feb 22, 2015 13:28:37 GMT -6
espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/12243012/ex-nfl-players-played-tackle-football-youth-more-likely-thinking-memory-problemsFormer NFL players who played tackle football as young children were more likely to have thinking and memory problems as adults, a Boston University study published Wednesday in a medical journal found. Researchers tested 42 retired players between the ages of 40 and 69 and found that those who started playing football prior to age 12 performed "significantly worse" on three measures: estimated verbal IQ; executive function, which includes reasoning and planning; and memory impairment. The study is published in Neurology, the medical journal of the American Academy of Neurology. Researchers tested 42 retired players between the ages of 40 and 69 and found that those who started playing football prior to age 12 performed "significantly worse" on three cognitive measures. "They were worse on all the tests we looked at," said Dr. Robert Stern, lead author and a professor of neurology and neurosurgery. "They had problems learning and remembering lists of words. They had problems with being flexible in their decision-making and problem-solving." The authors concluded that incurring repeated head impacts in football between the ages of 10 and 12, a critical and sensitive window for brain development, may increase the risk of later-life cognitive impairment. During those early years, the brain is rapidly building connections between neurons.
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Post by fantom on Feb 22, 2015 14:00:44 GMT -6
Chuck, one of the best things that happened to me, I think, is that we didn't have organized youth football when I was a kid. We played every day but the point was that we PLAYED. We didn't do up-downs, we didn't run gassers. We played. We had to figure it out ourselves: the rules for three on three, or two on two, or what if you had an odd number of kids; the ground rules, like what to do about that big rock in the middle of the field.
We played what we wanted to. Some days football, maybe whiffle ball or baseball (Horrors! No helmets), maybe basketball (Do you guys still have outdoor basketball courts? I can't think of one near here.).
We just had fun. Maybe that's why I still love football.
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Post by mahonz on Feb 22, 2015 15:48:27 GMT -6
espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/12243012/ex-nfl-players-played-tackle-football-youth-more-likely-thinking-memory-problemsFormer NFL players who played tackle football as young children were more likely to have thinking and memory problems as adults, a Boston University study published Wednesday in a medical journal found. Researchers tested 42 retired players between the ages of 40 and 69 and found that those who started playing football prior to age 12 performed "significantly worse" on three measures: estimated verbal IQ; executive function, which includes reasoning and planning; and memory impairment. The study is published in Neurology, the medical journal of the American Academy of Neurology. Researchers tested 42 retired players between the ages of 40 and 69 and found that those who started playing football prior to age 12 performed "significantly worse" on three cognitive measures. "They were worse on all the tests we looked at," said Dr. Robert Stern, lead author and a professor of neurology and neurosurgery. "They had problems learning and remembering lists of words. They had problems with being flexible in their decision-making and problem-solving." The authors concluded that incurring repeated head impacts in football between the ages of 10 and 12, a critical and sensitive window for brain development, may increase the risk of later-life cognitive impairment. During those early years, the brain is rapidly building connections between neurons. Research is very important so that they can start deleting keywords such a likely /might and may. That might require another 10-20 years so that they can compare more modern day football applications to old school applications....namely....you play or get replaced. Also....where is the comparative research on those from 40-69 that never played in the NFL? Another irresponsible article from a Company they relies heavily on....football. I don't get this research coming out right now because I don't know what / who to trust. I do applaud BU for at least drilling into this. What I am trying to do at the youth levels...and I might fail....is attaching a hit count to players much like a pitch count in Baseball. I think about my oldest Grandson who plays FB and MLB. Two high impact potions. So how do I get his hit count down? Easy. Dont pay him full time and full two platoon the entire team. Yet...when you mention a full two platoon to a room full of youth coaches they act like you just ran over their dog. The reason....they all think they should roll with 18-20 players and play their best 14 because they are inexperienced and not sure they can handle more players. At the youth level you could full two platoon with 28 players and do just fine. The NFL is full two platoon....big time college....many HS programs....yet at the youth level its always play your best both ways. Its a fairly irresponsible format that has been going on since the beginning of football time. Change that and everyone's hit count goes down. Some of the most successful youth football teams I have coached were minimum 80% two platoon. I also do not agree with changing how we all practice while game day stays the same. We can all control the hitting during practice without mandates but the game is still lights out. Why not shorten the games? So....there are quite a few things we can all do to become more responsible coaches...at all levels. When the research finally says....yes CTE as it relates to football is a serious issue and no one should be playing without a Warning Label or nope....football is just fine so carry on....I will do my best in my little World to try and do the right thing hoping that our game doesn't die off in the meantime. The next study ESPN picks up might just include HS level kids that played football back in the day. We are all under siege. Sorry for the rant. I read everything I can get my hands on when it comes to brains and football. I have 3 Grandsons and one Grand Daughter playing youth tackle football right now. And my Grand Daughter kicks b u t t. I do wonder at times if they should be playing but I saw what happened to my own Nephew. He never played youth or MS ball. Started as a Freshman in HS and got ROCKED ! He had all the tools size and speed wise and is a Black Belt in Karate but got WORKED....and quit...after 2 concussions and a broken ankle. He could not handle the speed of the game. He needed youth football as a precursor because he was going up against experienced football players even at the Freshman level.
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Post by mahonz on Feb 22, 2015 15:57:49 GMT -6
Chuck, one of the best things that happened to me, I think, is that we didn't have organized youth football when I was a kid. We played every day but the point was that we PLAYED. We didn't do up-downs, we didn't run gassers. We played. We had to figure it out ourselves: the rules for three on three, or two on two, or what if you had an odd number of kids; the ground rules, like what to do about that big rock in the middle of the field. We played what we wanted to. Some days football, maybe whiffle ball or baseball (Horrors! No helmets), maybe basketball (Do you guys still have outdoor basketball courts? I can't think of one near here.). We just had fun. Maybe that's why I still love football. We are about the same age and I remember doing all that stuff as well. Good times for sure. Unfortunately those days are long gone. No stay at home Moms means the last two generations are now "latch key" kids. Plus the age of instant info and ratings sensationalism in the news has scared the bejezus out of the Parents now a day. Kids RARELY get to do anything outdoors that isn't supervised unless you live in Small Town America. Really sad.
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Post by coachd5085 on Feb 22, 2015 18:15:34 GMT -6
When the research finally says....yes CTE as it relates to football is a serious issue and no one should be playing without a Warning Label or nope....football is just fine so carry on....I will do my best in my little World to try and do the right thing hoping that our game doesn't die off in the meantime. The problem mahonz is that research and science never works like that. It will always be "may, might" etc. I will say this though, and it may be sacrilegious but, I think deep down we ALL know that repeated collisions with other objects is going to be detrimental to the brain. Now, maybe some come through unaffected, like some smokers never develop cancer. Keep in mind though, there is a risk to everything. We have a daily risk in driving, a daily risk crossing the street, etc. I have seen just as many kids never play youth ball and DOMINATE HS games as freshman. I believe you play youth football because you want to play youth football--not as a prep for HS.
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noco
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Post by noco on Feb 22, 2015 20:50:55 GMT -6
Good discussion on both sides - usually a sign that there's no right answer. As to the problem of losing kids - doesn't that happen at every level of football? When middle school was the entry level in our district, the drop off to to high school was close to 50%. How many will drop out when, after 5 years of flag, they have to start tackling? That doesn't make flag a bad choice. The more relevant question to me is how many good players have played in the varsity program without having played in the youth program (presuming one exists)? If the answer is few, the high school coaches better be involved in the youth program.
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Post by spreadpowero on Feb 22, 2015 21:08:52 GMT -6
Flag for first level of football. After that, it needs to be tackle.
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Post by mahonz on Feb 22, 2015 23:27:49 GMT -6
When the research finally says....yes CTE as it relates to football is a serious issue and no one should be playing without a Warning Label or nope....football is just fine so carry on....I will do my best in my little World to try and do the right thing hoping that our game doesn't die off in the meantime. The problem mahonz is that research and science never works like that. It will always be "may, might" etc. I will say this though, and it may be sacrilegious but, I think deep down we ALL know that repeated collisions with other objects is going to be detrimental to the brain. Now, maybe some come through unaffected, like some smokers never develop cancer. Keep in mind though, there is a risk to everything. We have a daily risk in driving, a daily risk crossing the street, etc. I have seen just as many kids never play youth ball and DOMINATE HS games as freshman. I believe you play youth football because you want to play youth football--not as a prep for HS. Good points. Question. Isn't this NFL Lawsuit that is stuck in limbo tagged for some research along with former player needs? If the general feeling is tipping towards football indeed being bad for your health over the long term beyond blown knees and the like...it would be good to get some big dollars going towards the research at least. Currently it all strikes me as speculation. It would be very proactive to see the NFL cut BU a big fat check. When Im coaching 2nd graders....its all about the simple things....like post game snackage. But as they progress it does become about playing at the HS level. I coach under a very unique format. If I take on a team of 2nd graders I can stay with that team all the way thru the 8th grade. So I can coach the same core of kids longer than some NFL coaches coach their core. We are single grade based so the Staffs all stay together as well for the most part. Here is something I find interesting. The League I coach in just celebrated its 75th Season. It is an Independent League meaning unlimited weight with no National alliances like Pop Warner. There are roughly 5K that play in the League currently. When the Jake Snakenberger Act went into Law...number grew. The great recession hits...number grew as did scholarship requests. Junior Seau commits suicide...number grew. Frontline runs an expose on the NFL and Concussions...number grew. Former NFL greats come out and say they would not let their kids play football until HS if at all....number grew. Then we align with USA Football a year ago and numbers drop a full 12% across the League. That is 5-600 kids from just one League all in one fell swoop. Coincidence? I dont think so. By aligning with USA Football we simply admitted that something might be wrong with our Sport but look here...by golly we are doing something about it. One in 10 Parents then decide that they would take a wait and see attitude and opt out of tackle football altogether. Do any of us really think they will change their minds when it comes time to play HS ball?
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