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Post by Coach Bennett on Feb 9, 2015 19:16:48 GMT -6
I think the next "revolution" is going to be in the rules of the game.
I wouldn't be surprised to see not being able to leave one's feet to tackle and having to attempt to wrap when tackling...both rules in rugby which make for a safer game and better tackling.
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Post by coachbdud on Feb 9, 2015 19:17:06 GMT -6
It looks like the only thing we can be sure of is more change. As for TEs- I'm not so sure the game is going that way. I've always said that in order for me to have a TE I need to have 8 linemen first. Maybe It's just the areas I've been, but I've never seen that luxury. I coached 1 year at a school with a decent TE. We've always needed more linemen. Those "Tight Ends" have always served much more value as an Offensive Tackle. And yes, TEs tend to be scooped and horded by the DL coach early. I think the participation numbers for this sport are declining, and especially with bigger kids. I see lots of big kids around HS campuses. But they are soft and unwilling to participate in any kind of physical activity. I used to think this way too... heck i was a 100% 4 wide guy for 3 full years anyone who asked to play TE or Fb was just a fast O lineman however I will say now that I have gone back and do a lot of 21 and 12 personnel stuff, I love it! he is the thing, my very best OL plays TE and FB for me this year, and will again next season (class of 2016) hes also our 2 time defensive MVP (over 100 tackles a year, 1st team all league stud MLB) what i have discovered is this the buy in from the beginning of his sophomore year when he was a guard, to middle of that year when we moved him to TE has gone way up... he would do his job blocking at guard, but something magic about saying he was a TE and switching to a pretty #10 jersey... he busted his butt... we run 90% of the time, and he only caught a handful of passes but he started giving me more in practice and games on offense, and didnt save himself for defense anymore... he was phenomenal in indys this last year and got better every day the other benefit was putting him at TE, i KNEW he would kill his downblock and seal the box down for us... he routinely moved DTs out of the way if he played OL and i moved him unbalanced to down block you kind of know it is coming, where as at TE he moved around right and left all the time without it being so obvious the ball is coming right there at FB, he can lead on every play if i want him to kick out on power lead on counter lead outside on sweep lead inside on Iso i feel i can use him in more ways moving him around at TE and FB, just another side to consider to touch on the subject of fat kids being soft elementary teachers and their mothers make them soft, they are usually big as little kids and are constantly being told to play nice, or theyll hurt someone... so they just get raised as big softies the biggest kid in our entire school is a freshman, he is a legit 6'5" 350 lbs doesnt play football, is in the band i walked by him the other day after lunch, he was sitting on some stairs talking to another teacher, crying , because of something someone had said and while part of me feels bad and understands bullying and it's negative effects the football side of me says, you are 2x the size of anyone else on campus, downblock the little punk that bullied you and then come hit the weights with me
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Post by pvogel on Feb 9, 2015 20:28:24 GMT -6
It looks like the only thing we can be sure of is more change. As for TEs- I'm not so sure the game is going that way. I've always said that in order for me to have a TE I need to have 8 linemen first. Maybe It's just the areas I've been, but I've never seen that luxury. I coached 1 year at a school with a decent TE. We've always needed more linemen. Those "Tight Ends" have always served much more value as an Offensive Tackle. And yes, TEs tend to be scooped and horded by the DL coach early. I think the participation numbers for this sport are declining, and especially with bigger kids. I see lots of big kids around HS campuses. But they are soft and unwilling to participate in any kind of physical activity. I used to think this way too... heck i was a 100% 4 wide guy for 3 full years anyone who asked to play TE or Fb was just a fast O lineman however I will say now that I have gone back and do a lot of 21 and 12 personnel stuff, I love it! he is the thing, my very best OL plays TE and FB for me this year, and will again next season (class of 2016) hes also our 2 time defensive MVP (over 100 tackles a year, 1st team all league stud MLB) what i have discovered is this the buy in from the beginning of his sophomore year when he was a guard, to middle of that year when we moved him to TE has gone way up... he would do his job blocking at guard, but something magic about saying he was a TE and switching to a pretty #10 jersey... he busted his butt... we run 90% of the time, and he only caught a handful of passes but he started giving me more in practice and games on offense, and didnt save himself for defense anymore... he was phenomenal in indys this last year and got better every day the other benefit was putting him at TE, i KNEW he would kill his downblock and seal the box down for us... he routinely moved DTs out of the way if he played OL and i moved him unbalanced to down block you kind of know it is coming, where as at TE he moved around right and left all the time without it being so obvious the ball is coming right there at FB, he can lead on every play if i want him to kick out on power lead on counter lead outside on sweep lead inside on Iso i feel i can use him in more ways moving him around at TE and FB, just another side to consider to touch on the subject of fat kids being soft elementary teachers and their mothers make them soft, they are usually big as little kids and are constantly being told to play nice, or theyll hurt someone... so they just get raised as big softies the biggest kid in our entire school is a freshman, he is a legit 6'5" 350 lbs doesnt play football, is in the band i walked by him the other day after lunch, he was sitting on some stairs talking to another teacher, crying , because of something someone had said and while part of me feels bad and understands bullying and it's negative effects the football side of me says, you are 2x the size of anyone else on campus, downblock the little punk that bullied you and then come hit the weights with me Interesting take on the TE. I like the motivation take. And I can buy the versatility sell. But I tend to have 5 eligible receivers that are better players than our 5 ol. But yes, I would love to have a real good TE. And you hit the nail on the head on raising softies. I think its a major societal issue.
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Post by fantom on Feb 9, 2015 20:43:35 GMT -6
I think the use of more tight ends period be it one, two, or even three. Seems to me that when things "come back around" it is after teams have gone away for one reason or another only to find out that their defensive counterparts are either having trouble defending or don't like defending certain things (double tight, TE away from trips, etc.). The problems with te's is they are usually all playing defense. I had 3 two years ago that could play and we rolled them in and almost stayed in two tight. Last year I only had one and he couldn't play. And this is why we don't platoon.
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Post by tog on Feb 9, 2015 20:44:14 GMT -6
Good luck with that. You know what I think? I think they'll be a trend back toward under center downhill run games which means defenses will get back to having to defend that style football. I know what yall are thinking: good luck with that. I can't see teams going back under center, but I can see more beefy personell packages and jumbo formations being used out of the gun. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using proboards I can, the qb sneak avg we had was similar to the qb pull avg , but a lot simpler to accomplish
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Post by shotgunfivewide55 on Feb 9, 2015 20:55:28 GMT -6
great story coach. I was much the same way with tight ends and fbs and after years of using the spread decided that after working all week on plays against certain defenses that would always change I asked my oline coach what I could run against anything the defense through against me and he said simple, run power and isolation. we changed philosophies and moved our best linemen to a sniffer position, gave us 6 linemen and we could move our best player all around the field, if you slanted to his side we could pull him to the other side, we could also use him to the strong side with obvious plays. He became the player that we built our offense around. We took an average kid, like coach said and took a kid that we never let run the ball and caught a couple of passes a year became a skill player. different kid, we now put our toughest player at fb and usually wear the jersey 44, my favorite number, kids fight for that jersey. Over the years the role has evolved into a player that lines up all over the field and makes our very plain looking offense look very tough with simple motions, shifts and trades. I knew we had hit on something good when I saw our sniffer backs giving lessons to other younger players on how to properly shuffle from one side of the line to other. He taught the motion with much vigor and what could have been wasted time was used to teach younger players.
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Post by lochness on Feb 9, 2015 20:56:54 GMT -6
It looks like the only thing we can be sure of is more change. As for TEs- I'm not so sure the game is going that way. I've always said that in order for me to have a TE I need to have 8 linemen first. Maybe It's just the areas I've been, but I've never seen that luxury. I coached 1 year at a school with a decent TE. We've always needed more linemen. Those "Tight Ends" have always served much more value as an Offensive Tackle. And yes, TEs tend to be scooped and horded by the DL coach early. I think the participation numbers for this sport are declining, and especially with bigger kids. I see lots of big kids around HS campuses. But they are soft and unwilling to participate in any kind of physical activity. I used to think this way too... heck i was a 100% 4 wide guy for 3 full years anyone who asked to play TE or Fb was just a fast O lineman however I will say now that I have gone back and do a lot of 21 and 12 personnel stuff, I love it! he is the thing, my very best OL plays TE and FB for me this year, and will again next season (class of 2016) hes also our 2 time defensive MVP (over 100 tackles a year, 1st team all league stud MLB) what i have discovered is this the buy in from the beginning of his sophomore year when he was a guard, to middle of that year when we moved him to TE has gone way up... he would do his job blocking at guard, but something magic about saying he was a TE and switching to a pretty #10 jersey... he busted his butt... we run 90% of the time, and he only caught a handful of passes but he started giving me more in practice and games on offense, and didnt save himself for defense anymore... he was phenomenal in indys this last year and got better every day the other benefit was putting him at TE, i KNEW he would kill his downblock and seal the box down for us... he routinely moved DTs out of the way if he played OL and i moved him unbalanced to down block you kind of know it is coming, where as at TE he moved around right and left all the time without it being so obvious the ball is coming right there at FB, he can lead on every play if i want him to kick out on power lead on counter lead outside on sweep lead inside on Iso i feel i can use him in more ways moving him around at TE and FB, just another side to consider to touch on the subject of fat kids being soft elementary teachers and their mothers make them soft, they are usually big as little kids and are constantly being told to play nice, or theyll hurt someone... so they just get raised as big softies the biggest kid in our entire school is a freshman, he is a legit 6'5" 350 lbs doesnt play football, is in the band i walked by him the other day after lunch, he was sitting on some stairs talking to another teacher, crying , because of something someone had said and while part of me feels bad and understands bullying and it's negative effects the football side of me says, you are 2x the size of anyone else on campus, downblock the little punk that bullied you and then come hit the weights with me Fantastic post, brah. Very cool way of looking at things.
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Post by carookie on Feb 9, 2015 20:58:01 GMT -6
Heres the monkey wrench that will throw off the cyclical nature of returning to the run: Offseason 7 on 7 teams.
They are starting to saturate the area, and HS coaches are able to work with their players under the guise of a club team. It may not be what is best, but since coaches are working on these pass based offenses more and more frequently, then they will incorporate them into the real stuff.
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Post by coachfloyd on Feb 10, 2015 6:26:59 GMT -6
The problems with te's is they are usually all playing defense. I had 3 two years ago that could play and we rolled them in and almost stayed in two tight. Last year I only had one and he couldn't play. And this is why we don't platoon. the problem occurs though when all the teams you are playing pretty much are.
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Post by RoCro23 on Feb 10, 2015 7:31:23 GMT -6
As a former TEs coach you have to identify the need for it in your program and there is definitely a need for it if you want to win games ie run the football. You have to put the right player in the position. Not everyone can play TE. A lot of kids think they can but the fact is they can not. If you don't think TE is a priority you will rarely have good TE play unless you have an athlete just fall into the position. You have to appreciate what a TE brings to your offense and you have to work at it. From what I have seen and experienced most coaches don't realize they need a TE until after the realize they need a TE. In other words after their first loss or something to that effect that shows them they can't run the ball with the 5 they have up front. And this is in no way a slight to the OL or OL coaches. Some nights your 5 just can't block their 4 or sometimes even 3. TE and especially Double TEs if you ask good Def coaches cause havoc with the defense. But it's like anything else if you don't value it and work at it you'll most likely get frustrated with it and move further away from it.
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Post by RoCro23 on Feb 10, 2015 7:40:21 GMT -6
As for evolutions of the game, personally I would like to see, "cutting" as a method of TACKLING eliminated. Mostly this is done by smaller DBs on larger RBs/TEs/Recs. I hate seeing that. I know why they do it. Physics. But it is what ended Marcus Lattimore's career and many others. Also, it is very dangerous for the person "tackling". Hitting should be mandated from the thighs up. If they rules can be amended for no helmet to helmet, which I agree has some flaws in it, it can certainly be amended for initial contact at the knees. The play I dislike the most is (usually) a FB out of the backfield into the flats that is cut/tackled immediately after catching the ball and does not see the corner rolling down. It's just not a safe way to play this game.
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Post by fantom on Feb 10, 2015 8:10:09 GMT -6
And this is why we don't platoon. the problem occurs though when all the teams you are playing pretty much are. You have to do what;s best for your team. If you want to platoon maybe yiu need to identify guys who can help you on the other side of the ball and find ways for that to happen. If JJ Watt and Mike Vrabel can play some TE what's stopping a HS program for using a kid there for 10 plays or so a game?
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Post by coachfloyd on Feb 10, 2015 8:38:07 GMT -6
the problem occurs though when all the teams you are playing pretty much are. You have to do what;s best for your team. If you want to platoon maybe yiu need to identify guys who can help you on the other side of the ball and find ways for that to happen. If JJ Watt and Mike Vrabel can play some TE what's stopping a HS program for using a kid there for 10 plays or so a game? and thats what I did when I had 3.
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Post by fantom on Feb 10, 2015 8:42:53 GMT -6
You have to do what;s best for your team. If you want to platoon maybe yiu need to identify guys who can help you on the other side of the ball and find ways for that to happen. If JJ Watt and Mike Vrabel can play some TE what's stopping a HS program for using a kid there for 10 plays or so a game? and thats what I did when I had 3. Yeah TE's are hard to find. Ours was all-state this year and he'll be a WR in college and he played some situational defense.
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Post by silkyice on Feb 10, 2015 10:09:19 GMT -6
I think the game will make a circle again. If football life has taught us anything, it's that whatever was, always comes back around. I mean Urban's offense is new and innovating and all that, but it's basically single wing theory with modern concepts and rule changes applied. and the only offense to remain unchanged since Jesus played QB for Notre Dame...the Mother phuking Wing-T Just my opinion dc, You just used Jesus, M ph, and the wing t in the same sentence. I don't know if I should be offended, laugh, or cheer!
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Post by wingtol on Feb 10, 2015 11:20:53 GMT -6
That's it....keep moving away from those pesky TE's....especially schemes where the TE has a WB next to them....it's too "expensive" to find TE's just spread em and shred em with passes no need to run....don't worry about learning how to defend the run and offenses with three backs...
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Post by spreadattack on Feb 10, 2015 11:23:38 GMT -6
It's true that things are cyclical but that's not totally true. When concepts go away coaches do not really forget how to stop them, but that means when they come back they look a little different than before. Shotgun, spread formations, option football, power football, heavy fronts, rotating coverages, shifts, tempo, etc -- these things have been around for decades and in some cases for over 100 years, and none really go away and they all keep coming back, though slightly different. What I can guarantee you is the offense or defense of the 50s or 70s won't come back verbatim, but there might be some new spin on it that makes it modern, though the principles will be old. If it was just as simple as lining up in an old offense or defense then everything would be easy.
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Post by 33coach on Feb 10, 2015 11:34:53 GMT -6
It's true that things are cyclical but that's not totally true. When concepts go away coaches do not really forget how to stop them, but that means when they come back they look a little different than before. Shotgun, spread formations, option football, power football, heavy fronts, rotating coverages, shifts, tempo, etc -- these things have been around for decades and in some cases for over 100 years, and none really go away and they all keep coming back, though slightly different. What I can guarantee you is the offense or defense of the 50s or 70s won't come back verbatim, but there might be some new spin on it that makes it modern, though the principles will be old. If it was just as simple as lining up in an old offense or defense then everything would be easy. you havnt met any Slot T guys have you if you dont run it exactly how it was originally built, they come after you.
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Post by spreadattack on Feb 10, 2015 11:42:50 GMT -6
Well the question was what will be big "Trends." There are "old" offenses and defenses that will remain successful because of the quality of the coaches running them, the uniqueness of the schemes compared to what else they see and the quality of the kids. But for something to be a trend (which is neither good nor bad, it is just something that happens) there usually needs to be some "new" wrinkle, whether that it's a combination of things previously done or an old attack with a few new wrinkles, etc.
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Post by eaglemountie on Feb 10, 2015 12:02:52 GMT -6
I think the game will make a circle again. If football life has taught us anything, it's that whatever was, always comes back around. I mean Urban's offense is new and innovating and all that, but it's basically single wing theory with modern concepts and rule changes applied. and the only offense to remain unchanged since Jesus played QB for Notre Dame...the Mother phuking Wing-T Just my opinion Ahem... And the father of the wing-t... Some still run the original offense... Two tight, unbalanced, foot to foot, with FOUR backs... When teams didn't have a fast enough and tough enough 4th back, they moved that soft little flower to a new position... Quarterback...
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Post by 33coach on Feb 10, 2015 12:15:13 GMT -6
I think the RPO stuff is going to become more and more extensive..SINCE NO ONE calls ineligible man down field on any OLineman EVER!!!! I think a 2 QB system may be the next evolution of the offensive game. Since right now most QB's are at least as much runners as they are passers. Take Ohio State for instance...well obviously they had 3 pretty good QBs playing QB, but Jalen Marshall #17 was a QB in HS. So he can throw it too. Since everyone one of them can run, I can see someone coming along and using this to their advantage. I'm thinking what Pittsburgh did with Heinz Ward and that other little QB/WR guy they had but more apart of the normal offensive scheme. hugh wyatt has been running a split 2 QB system for 10+ years (the original wildcat..not that NFL stuff). id like to see more of it in popularity
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Post by mariner42 on Feb 10, 2015 13:32:50 GMT -6
As for evolutions of the game, personally I would like to see, "cutting" as a method of TACKLING eliminated. Mostly this is done by smaller DBs on larger RBs/TEs/Recs. I hate seeing that. I know why they do it. Physics. But it is what ended Marcus Lattimore's career and many others. Also, it is very dangerous for the person "tackling". Hitting should be mandated from the thighs up. If they rules can be amended for no helmet to helmet, which I agree has some flaws in it, it can certainly be amended for initial contact at the knees. The play I dislike the most is (usually) a FB out of the backfield into the flats that is cut/tackled immediately after catching the ball and does not see the corner rolling down. It's just not a safe way to play this game. A tackle like that ended my career as a RB, made me a full-time LB. Bums me out because I was a better RB than LB and I even got to play at the D3 level as an LB, makes me wonder what if... I think the next really important developments will be centered around safety. Blocking techniques, tackling techniques, change of possession/special teams rules, things like that. Out of those changes will be people who find a way to be more effective than everyone else and those will be the new innovators.
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Post by 33coach on Feb 10, 2015 13:47:26 GMT -6
I hope that one day we remove the helmet from this sport.
If you take off the helmet you wont use your head...ask a rugby player.
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Post by spos21ram on Feb 10, 2015 13:52:48 GMT -6
I hope that one day we remove the helmet from this sport. If you take off the helmet you wont use your head...ask a rugby player. Only thing I'm afraid of is that once they take the helmet away, it's only a matter of time before it becomes flag football. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using proboards
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Post by 33coach on Feb 10, 2015 14:10:26 GMT -6
I hope that one day we remove the helmet from this sport. If you take off the helmet you wont use your head...ask a rugby player. Only thing I'm afraid of is that once they take the helmet away, it's only a matter of time before it becomes flag football. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using proboards Why would one lead to the other? Rugby works without a helmet, so should tackle football.
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Post by fantom on Feb 10, 2015 14:14:27 GMT -6
Only thing I'm afraid of is that once they take the helmet away, it's only a matter of time before it becomes flag football. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using proboards Why would one lead to the other? Rugby works without a helmet, so should tackle football. It won't happen. Football people may understand that helmets encourage players to use their head but that's not who will make the decision. Comparing football with rugby won't help. If you've played both you understand that football is much more violent but that's not what outsiders think. They think that rugby is a blood bath.
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Post by spos21ram on Feb 10, 2015 14:22:55 GMT -6
Only thing I'm afraid of is that once they take the helmet away, it's only a matter of time before it becomes flag football. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using proboards Why would one lead to the other? Rugby works without a helmet, so should tackle football. Same way Marijuana is becoming legal...baby steps. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using proboards
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Post by newt21 on Feb 10, 2015 15:06:03 GMT -6
Only thing I'm afraid of is that once they take the helmet away, it's only a matter of time before it becomes flag football. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using proboards Why would one lead to the other? Rugby works without a helmet, so should tackle football. The difference is when football had no helmets, people actually died. It's why guys started using them in the first place.
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Post by 33coach on Feb 10, 2015 15:14:29 GMT -6
Why would one lead to the other? Rugby works without a helmet, so should tackle football. The difference is when football had no helmets, people actually died. It's why guys started using them in the first place. but now we have helmets that are so good, they can be used as another collision surface (or so the players think....)...and dieing because of it. which is better? maybe we go back to the leather caps...best of both worlds maybe?
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Post by silkyice on Feb 10, 2015 15:29:27 GMT -6
The difference is when football had no helmets, people actually died. It's why guys started using them in the first place. but now we have helmets that are so good, they can be used as another collision surface (or so the players think....)...and dieing because of it. which is better? maybe we go back to the leather caps...best of both worlds maybe? They started using helmets because there were actual cracked skulls while playing football.
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