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Post by gibbs72 on Jan 5, 2015 14:46:20 GMT -6
I agree that online high school is not very efficient, but, boys, brace yourselves: we're moving closer to that each year. I can see it being more of an option: (1) come do "typical" school or (2) do your own online curriculum at your own pace. I can see it as a "catch all" to gives students basically every different opportunity to get their education. Only excuse for their not getting it will be "I don't want to do it". I'm not sure how the legislatures will word it, but I believe that's what we're heading toward.
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Post by coachbdud on Jan 5, 2015 14:53:01 GMT -6
What about making high schools more of a virtual classroom? Kind of like colleges. Kids who have to work can...but have to take classes at other times or online. I know this would jack up athletics...but provide students (and teachers) different ways to skin the cat. Have a {censored} teacher? Let them work from home and teach a virtual class. I don't have the answer on how to make all that work...but like DC says...Algebra is Algebra...it's just how it's delivered. I could really get into working from home. Kids log in...you teach your class from your home office. Schools done...head to school for football practice. That'd be a fun gig. we have a program here called cyber high, I am sure other's have it i teach one period of it currently, i love it as a teacher because there isnt a whole lot of work for me it is self paced, they click their the material, take quizzes, i unlock their finals... they pass all 5 finals, they get their 5 credits it is a way for kids to make up credits to graduate it is good for the losers who need to makeup a lot of work but i wish it were more paced, any kid who tries can get 2 classes done in 1 semester, i had a few do 3, and one girl make up 4 classes this semester... but some kids are lazy and didnt even finish one whole class... i can't make them do work another issue i have with it is, is our counselors think it is the best thing and push kids into it, the only problem is no athlete can take it, while the CSU/UC system accept the classes for their A-G requirements, NCAA does not recognize it as a real class... so even if an athlete got accepted into a college, they would not be eligible to receive any NCAA scholarship money because technically they did not met the 16 core class requirements we have a PITA WR who thinks he is an all state player (THINKS) he tells everyone he is going D-1, and he is too good for JuCo, i keep trying to tell him the cyber high classes he made up last year to replace F's he got as a sophomore, automatically make him ineligible to be a NCAA kid, and he has to go JC route (NAIA might accept cyber high not sure) I have had to go into counselors office and demand schedule changes for a couple of our kids who do have NCAA potential, before they take a class they can't use
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Post by coachwoodall on Jan 5, 2015 15:01:53 GMT -6
I work in an area w/a LARGE migrant population. We don't get some kids back from harvesting until right at the start of the school year. These families need that income. That calendar may work in New York City, but not here, over 1/2 the school wouldn't be here... Duece Ditto. There's giant parts of CA that have to take migrant workers into consideration when setting their schedule. Oh I get that even though I'm a long way from NYC. My point being that when public education became normalized, it happened when 90% of the population was agrarian. Now that number has completely flipped. Also, wouldn't year round school/alternative calendar schools make even more sense in a community such as you mention? Gladwell's chapter on dealing with summer vacation was basically this: regardless off socio-economic situation, kids start school at roughly the same level. And the progress as roughly the same level over the course of the school year. However kids from lower socio-economic backgrounds see no growth over the summer months because they get no intellectual stimulation like kids from middle/upper class.. Add those summers up from K5 to 8th grade, and you can see why certain groups are 2-3 school years behind when they enter high school. While I have certain views that some might not agree on relating to the institution of education, I go back to the stress teachers feel because of the pressures from management to make improvement; the markers are not going away. Changes that are taking place are not fundamental change, only nominal. Thus those in charge of implementing these changes know that they won't make a marked difference yet they are the 'change agents'.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2015 15:32:20 GMT -6
Dam...for a guy who ain't a teacher, I sure stirred the pot! Just what I was looking for though, very good discussion and some very good insight.
Duece
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Post by jml on Jan 5, 2015 16:43:20 GMT -6
I already loved Canada, now I love it even more... How does one get a teaching job in Canada? Do they even have PE as a class? I would coach football for free with a salary like that.
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Post by fantom on Jan 5, 2015 17:04:48 GMT -6
In addition to what arnold posted, there has been a real movement (at least in our state) to lessen if not wipe out the influence of teachers' unions, both at state and local levels. For example tenure has virtually become a thing of the past.
The political motivation cannot be underestimated. And yet I still see letters to the newspaper and stuff on Facebook about the "All-powerful Teachers' Union". I hear it all the time here in Virginia, where collective bargaining by public employees is illegal.
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Post by fantom on Jan 5, 2015 17:21:00 GMT -6
Part of the reason many quit early on is because the starting pay pretty much sucks They aren't patient enough to see how their salary will more than double in many districts from initial salary to when you Max it out via years and credits Just something to consider I think this varies considerably from region to region. Here in Louisiana, while the crappy districts suck... (as in maybe a little above poverty line pay) the better paying districts start at a pretty competitive wage. THE DIFFERENCE...is that down here districts don't seem to pay for experience. My district payscale tops out at 40 years...and that person might make about $12,000 more than a starting teacher. Contrast that with some of my friends in parts of NY where they are 10,000 above our max with 7 years experience and a masters. The trade off is, my district (and others like it) aren't looking to run off experienced teachers. So that is a plus I suppose. Starting salary in my old district is about $40,500. When I retired after 30 years I was making about $55,000. 40K doesn't sound bad for a kid just getting out of school but it doesn't take them long to figure out that it isn't going up much, especially when they're getting hit up for bigger insurance payments and pension contributions.
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Post by jg78 on Jan 5, 2015 19:32:42 GMT -6
I coach and teach five classes. I understand both ends of it, too. And I love teaching and have a lot of respect for my fellow teachers. However, I think you will agree that the general public is a lot more aware of how Central High's football team is doing than what's going on in the school's biology class. What do you teach? Science.
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Post by abkillen on Jan 5, 2015 20:03:21 GMT -6
I got into teaching for one reason, to coach football. I teach PE and love it. I see the crap that the classroom teachers go through and there is no way I would be happy teaching if it were not for PE. I teach elementary PE all day, and drive 5 minutes to the high school for football, it's a pretty good gig. Another plus is that you can make money coaching football in my state. Several coaches make over 100K and don't have many teaching responsibilities. They coach football and do AD type stuff. Schools around Birmingham right now are competing to see who can pay their head football coach the most money. If you work your tail off in this state, you can get to a point where you are paid good money to just do football, that's what I am aiming for one of these days. That's what keeps me in education!
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Post by tmccullo on Jan 5, 2015 20:35:58 GMT -6
Yes and the news media in the USA make scapegoats out of teachers and boast about how we are all over paid and don't work as much as the rest. If I divided the amount I get for a coaching stipend by all the hours I put in at work, I would probably cry. While the school was closed and everyone else on vacations, I was at the school three days each week keeping the weight room opened so kids would have something to do. I get no pay for this. I also keep out weight room open after school with no pay. Football season we all put in sometimes 100 hours a week. I went an entire season from August 1st to November 14th without having 1 day off. These are things the public and even other teachers don't see. Hell, we feed kids when mom and day don't, we but them clothes, take them home and spend time with kids when parents don;t have time. Meanwhile my own kids grew up and went to college in the blink of an eye. Like you said about pay, I get pretty angry when the media complains about out pay. My son has a bachelors degree in petroleum engineering. He got his first job making $95K/yr. Starting salary for teachers with a bachelors degree in education you get $48K in the city. Small school districts in out of the city are MUCH less. My son has paid vacations and full paid benefits. I pay about $500 a month for my insurance and my teacher retirement probably won't pay the bills. Yet the media, politicians and every one in the world want more out of us, more accountability and professionalism. How about we get paid like professionals and treated as equals. blb....as for teacher unions and tenure.....we have none here. We have unions but they usually are in with the school districts and do absolutely nothing when it come to representing teachers but take you money. Unions are very weak in Texas as we Texas law prohibits public employees from entering into a collective bargaining agreement. Statute also prohibits strikes by public employees. Tenure is a thing of the past as well. I worked in a school district that gave life time contracts. They were so desperate to get rod of them that they offered to give me 2 years salary to buy mine out. Needless to say I sold it and left. Now all we get in Texas is 1 year contracts. So at the whim of the administrators you could not have a contract renewed at the end of the year, no matter how many years you ahve been loyal to a school district. What profession treats employees like this? abkillen....I agree with you about why I got into teaching. For years I have been beat down by AP's about being a coach. They always remind you that you are a teacher first. As I said, I even got Special Ed certified so I could do the teacher thing. I all of the sudden decided that I AM NOT A TEACHER. I am a football coach. I have gotten hired at every school I have worked in 1st as a football coach and they just gave me a position. If I lost my football job, I lost my teaching job too. So there is little doubt what I am any more. The head of the SPecial Department got awfull hurt last year when I told her football came 1st with me and let her know that if I didn't have my coaching job I would not be there. I was hired as a coach. Thank goodness I am out of the class room and no longer have to put on the dog and pony show. I finally, at the end of my career get to do what I want to do and that is be a coach.
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Post by tmccullo on Jan 5, 2015 20:53:15 GMT -6
Yes and the news media in the USA make scapegoats out of teachers and boast about how we are all over paid and don't work as much as the rest. If I divided the amount I get for a coaching stipend by all the hours I put in at work, I would probably cry. While the school was closed and everyone else on vacations, I was at the school three days each week keeping the weight room opened so kids would have something to do. I get no pay for this. I also keep out weight room open after school with no pay. Football season we all put in sometimes 100 hours a week. I went an entire season from August 1st to November 14th without having 1 day off. These are things the public and even other teachers don't see. Hell, we feed kids when mom and day don't, we but them clothes, take them home and spend time with kids when parents don;t have time. Meanwhile my own kids grew up and went to college in the blink of an eye. Like you said about pay, I get pretty angry when the media complains about out pay. My son has a bachelors degree in petroleum engineering. He got his first job making $95K/yr. Starting salary for teachers with a bachelors degree in education you get $48K in the city. Small school districts in out of the city are MUCH less. My son has paid vacations and full paid benefits. I pay about $500 a month for my insurance and my teacher retirement probably won't pay the bills. Yet the media, politicians and every one in the world want more out of us, more accountability and professionalism. How about we get paid like professionals and treated as equals. blb....as for teacher unions and tenure.....we have none here. We have unions but they usually are in with the school districts and do absolutely nothing when it come to representing teachers but take you money. Unions are very weak in Texas as we Texas law prohibits public employees from entering into a collective bargaining agreement. Statute also prohibits strikes by public employees. Tenure is a thing of the past as well. I worked in a school district that gave life time contracts. They were so desperate to get rod of them that they offered to give me 2 years salary to buy mine out. Needless to say I sold it and left. Now all we get in Texas is 1 year contracts. So at the whim of the administrators you could not have a contract renewed at the end of the year, no matter how many years you have been loyal to a school district. What profession treats employees like this? abkillen....I agree with you about why I got into teaching. For years I have been beat down by AP's about being a coach. They always remind you that you are a teacher first. As I said, I even got Special Ed certified so I could do the teacher thing. I all of the sudden decided that I AM NOT A TEACHER. I am a football coach. I have gotten hired at every school I have worked in 1st as a football coach and they just gave me a position. If I lost my football job, I lost my teaching job too. So there is little doubt what I am any more. The head of the Special Department got awfull hurt last year when I told her football came 1st with me and let her know that if I didn't have my coaching job I would not be there. I was hired as a coach. Thank goodness I am out of the class room and no longer have to put on the dog and pony show. I finally, at the end of my career get to do what I want to do and that is be a coach. abkillen, where do you coach. We have some coaches making $100K here and no teaching duties but they are also paid as an athletic coordinator or assistant athletic director. Most of the coaches that make $70K/yr+ only make it because they have 30+ years teaching and coach 3 sports.
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Post by coachwoodall on Jan 5, 2015 21:05:57 GMT -6
I just turned 46. I have over 20 years in the system. I have a HS frosh, a 6th grader, and a preschooler. I'll be vested in the retirement system in 8 years, yet because of the fact I slipped one by the goalie I'll be doing this gig for at least 18 more years; God willing.
I love what I do. I had a job many years ago where I drove the anti-commute: I lived in town and worked in the suburbs. I often laughed at the headlights heading the other way going to work early in the morning that were dreading what they were heading into doing that day. I still get up and am geeked to meet the challenge I face. Do I beotch around the 'water cooler'? Hades yes.
The reality that is what when my oldest goes to college, she'll be able to have a myriad of different chances she doesn't get at the school she is attending now. And she is in one of the best schools in the nation in innovation so far as technology and related arts opportunities. The same is true for my 11 year old. When my youngest comes through, we all will see if the education institution has changed so that he will achieve far greater opportunities within the system to realize his full potential.
Schools have to change, and by change I mean real fundamental change. As of now, I have to send my kids to the school they are zoned to attend unless I sell my house and change addresses. Would you accept having to buy groceries from the building closest to you simply because it is in your neighborhood? Or gasoline? Or any other good or service?
And what about the service that your school provides? If the closest service station only changed oil and rotated tires, would you accept that if you needed a transmission overhaul? What about doctors? Would you take you child to the local GP is they had Leukemia simply because their office was in your area and a oncologist was in the next town over? As a parent, I want the best for my child just like all you would. That is one reason I chose to work where I do. But what about parents that don't have the ability to do as I have done as make that choice?
Schools need to get beyond the brick and mortar concept. Schools need to get beyond the idea that there is a school year. Schools need to get beyond the idea that one size fits all. When my 6th grader wants to figure out how to beat a video game or to learn about how medieval knights fought wars, he goes online and looks up information or videos that teach him about the things he is interested in learning. My daughter downloads music and songs that she wants to sing for her passion. My youngest makes pictures of super heroes he likes on his gaming system.
I think there is great value in what school communities can teach young people about information and living together. Kids today want something more than what schools offer now and their parent do also. If schools want to be part of this experience, and teachers want to be part of this experience, and school systems/administrators want to be part of this experience; then we need to institute fundamental change within the entire school system.
The young teachers of today are getting out of the system because they don't fit the system that us old fogies find comfortable. The system we grew up and learned in, and cut our teeth in as teachers ourselves is outmoded. They live in a different world and they see the education of kids today in a different light. Yet we think finding a new text book, new teaching method, new set of standards, new set of pedagogical terms, or a new set of best practices will create better results and recruit new blood to our ranks. These young teachers and our kids want a whole different learning experience.
To put this all into terms better fitting this forum, football is still football; it's about blocking and tackling. Yet we can all agree that the game has changed tremendously in the last few years on the fundamentals of how we go about teaching these attributes, not to mention how we have changed in our approach to the particulars. While our preferred offensive or defensive philosophy my still be considered old school, we have changed whole sale in how we go about getting it done. None of us wants to go back to trading VHS tapes. None of us wants to go back to static stretching, None of us wants to back to the flying wedge.
Would any of us like to go back to the school we grew up in?
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Post by CS on Jan 6, 2015 7:36:54 GMT -6
Dam...for a guy who ain't a teacher, I sure stirred the pot! Just what I was looking for though, very good discussion and some very good insight. Duece It's hard to understand unless you're in the system. To most people that hear it it seems as if teachers are a bunch of cry babies, which is true to some degree, and that we need to just suck it up and get on with our lives. However, some of the crap that we have to put up with I sit back and just wonder what kind of person thought that it was a good idea. My state just implemented a teacher improvement system that is absolutely impossible to monitor. Yet we pay people to come in and show us how the system (that we payed for) works and it will probably get thrown out within the next few years when the government catches up to the teachers and says "Huh, this makes no sense does it?" You go through this a few times and it really starts to get you fired up. You are right that this has been a good thread.
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Post by jlenwood on Jan 6, 2015 9:13:59 GMT -6
Schools have to change, and by change I mean real fundamental change. As of now, I have to send my kids to the school they are zoned to attend unless I sell my house and change addresses. Would you accept having to buy groceries from the building closest to you simply because it is in your neighborhood? Or gasoline? Or any other good or service? And what about the service that your school provides? If the closest service station only changed oil and rotated tires, would you accept that if you needed a transmission overhaul? What about doctors? Would you take you child to the local GP is they had Leukemia simply because their office was in your area and a oncologist was in the next town over? As a parent, I want the best for my child just like all you would. That is one reason I chose to work where I do. But what about parents that don't have the ability to do as I have done as make that choice? I see this as one of the long term answers to the "bad" school issue. When a school begins to see that they have to compete for the student (tax dollar) they will improve. As the model is now, they just have to set back and get the tax money and do what they have always done. This in turn would take away from the individual concept of grading a teacher to grading their performance as an entire unit. So with this new model of school choice, if you start to see parents turning away from school district and turning to another one, the administration would be forced to find ways to improve and retain and gain students each year. If that meant getting rid of bad teachers, they would have to do it immediately or the system, due to the increased competition, would fail. This would put a premium on the "good teacher" being in demand....and getting paid! This would in fact create a supply and demand situation for the service of the school, and the ability of the teacher.
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Post by CS on Jan 6, 2015 9:45:51 GMT -6
Schools have to change, and by change I mean real fundamental change. As of now, I have to send my kids to the school they are zoned to attend unless I sell my house and change addresses. Would you accept having to buy groceries from the building closest to you simply because it is in your neighborhood? Or gasoline? Or any other good or service? And what about the service that your school provides? If the closest service station only changed oil and rotated tires, would you accept that if you needed a transmission overhaul? What about doctors? Would you take you child to the local GP is they had Leukemia simply because their office was in your area and a oncologist was in the next town over? As a parent, I want the best for my child just like all you would. That is one reason I chose to work where I do. But what about parents that don't have the ability to do as I have done as make that choice? I see this as one of the long term answers to the "bad" school issue. When a school begins to see that they have to compete for the student (tax dollar) they will improve. As the model is now, they just have to set back and get the tax money and do what they have always done. This in turn would take away from the individual concept of grading a teacher to grading their performance as an entire unit. So with this new model of school choice, if you start to see parents turning away from school district and turning to another one, the administration would be forced to find ways to improve and retain and gain students each year. If that meant getting rid of bad teachers, they would have to do it immediately or the system, due to the increased competition, would fail. This would put a premium on the "good teacher" being in demand....and getting paid! This would in fact create a supply and demand situation for the service of the school, and the ability of the teacher. In theory, yes. But what about that kid who just graduated and can only get the job that no "experienced" teacher wants because it would hurt their ability to earn extra money? The new teacher would be stuck in the low paying crap heap with no way out
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Post by blb on Jan 6, 2015 10:21:45 GMT -6
We have had "Schools of Choice" (SOC) in our state for almost twenty years.
The result has been that city-urban districts are barely on life support. They have been eliminating positions, cutting salaries and benefits, closing schools at an alarming rate.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2015 10:34:51 GMT -6
What about making high schools more of a virtual classroom? Kind of like colleges. Kids who have to work can...but have to take classes at other times or online. I know this would jack up athletics...but provide students (and teachers) different ways to skin the cat. Have a {censored} teacher? Let them work from home and teach a virtual class. I don't have the answer on how to make all that work...but like DC says...Algebra is Algebra...it's just how it's delivered. I could really get into working from home. Kids log in...you teach your class from your home office. Schools done...head to school for football practice. That'd be a fun gig. we have a program here called cyber high, I am sure other's have it i teach one period of it currently, i love it as a teacher because there isnt a whole lot of work for me it is self paced, they click their the material, take quizzes, i unlock their finals... they pass all 5 finals, they get their 5 credits it is a way for kids to make up credits to graduate it is good for the losers who need to makeup a lot of work but i wish it were more paced, any kid who tries can get 2 classes done in 1 semester, i had a few do 3, and one girl make up 4 classes this semester... but some kids are lazy and didnt even finish one whole class... i can't make them do work another issue i have with it is, is our counselors think it is the best thing and push kids into it, the only problem is no athlete can take it, while the CSU/UC system accept the classes for their A-G requirements, NCAA does not recognize it as a real class... so even if an athlete got accepted into a college, they would not be eligible to receive any NCAA scholarship money because technically they did not met the 16 core class requirements we have a PITA WR who thinks he is an all state player (THINKS) he tells everyone he is going D-1, and he is too good for JuCo, i keep trying to tell him the cyber high classes he made up last year to replace F's he got as a sophomore, automatically make him ineligible to be a NCAA kid, and he has to go JC route (NAIA might accept cyber high not sure) I have had to go into counselors office and demand schedule changes for a couple of our kids who do have NCAA potential, before they take a class they can't use We have what's called "GAP." It's basically the same thing. I hate it. The problem with GAP is that it's all about passing multiple choice quizzes. A kid flunks the quiz, he can just go back, see the answers he missed, and blindly click through until he gets a passing combo. For a kid who puts any effort, he can usually make up a class in about a week. It's not uncommon for a kid to make up a class in 15 minutes at times. We had one kid last year make up 3 classes in under an hour. We use it to keep the graduation rate high, but the problem is that all the kids have it in their heads that it doesn't matter if they do absolutely nothing in class because they can always just retake it in GAP and knock it out in a few days with no homework. A lot of our players are in there over the summer knocking out 3 or 4 classes in a few days to become eligible for the season.
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Post by blb on Jan 6, 2015 10:37:36 GMT -6
One tactic administrators (in my area at least) are using now that tenure has been eliminated is giving more experienced teachers who are near retirement either classes they have not taught (new preps) or the lower level classes in their area to prod them into getting out.
Helps balance the books as they save a lot by hiring in a replacement teacher at half the salary and bennies or less.
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Post by coach2013 on Jan 6, 2015 10:39:34 GMT -6
Whatever people say negatively about being a teacher:
Ill always remember that I wanted a big office desk, a big white board, a tv with dvd, cable tv, a projector and screen, a place to put up sports banners and a bulletin board for football articles, summers and weekends off, holidays off, short days and the ability to "do my thing" in the classroom.
Ill gladly accept the headaches for the things I do love best about my job.
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Post by coachbdud on Jan 6, 2015 10:41:05 GMT -6
we have a program here called cyber high, I am sure other's have it i teach one period of it currently, i love it as a teacher because there isnt a whole lot of work for me it is self paced, they click their the material, take quizzes, i unlock their finals... they pass all 5 finals, they get their 5 credits it is a way for kids to make up credits to graduate it is good for the losers who need to makeup a lot of work but i wish it were more paced, any kid who tries can get 2 classes done in 1 semester, i had a few do 3, and one girl make up 4 classes this semester... but some kids are lazy and didnt even finish one whole class... i can't make them do work another issue i have with it is, is our counselors think it is the best thing and push kids into it, the only problem is no athlete can take it, while the CSU/UC system accept the classes for their A-G requirements, NCAA does not recognize it as a real class... so even if an athlete got accepted into a college, they would not be eligible to receive any NCAA scholarship money because technically they did not met the 16 core class requirements we have a PITA WR who thinks he is an all state player (THINKS) he tells everyone he is going D-1, and he is too good for JuCo, i keep trying to tell him the cyber high classes he made up last year to replace F's he got as a sophomore, automatically make him ineligible to be a NCAA kid, and he has to go JC route (NAIA might accept cyber high not sure) I have had to go into counselors office and demand schedule changes for a couple of our kids who do have NCAA potential, before they take a class they can't use We have what's called "GAP." It's basically the same thing. I hate it. The problem with GAP is that it's all about passing multiple choice quizzes. A kid flunks the quiz, he can just go back, see the answers he missed, and blindly click through until he gets a passing combo. For a kid who puts any effort, he can usually make up a class in about a week. It's not uncommon for a kid to make up a class in 15 minutes at times. We had one kid last year make up 3 classes in under an hour. We use it to keep the graduation rate high, but the problem is that all the kids have it in their heads that it doesn't matter if they do absolutely nothing in class because they can always just retake it in GAP and knock it out in a few days with no homework. A lot of our players are in there over the summer knocking out 3 or 4 classes in a few days to become eligible for the season. Wow we need gap here We'd never have an ineligible kid again Is it approved for college:ncaa? Doesn't sound like it would be
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2015 10:48:40 GMT -6
Schools have to change, and by change I mean real fundamental change. As of now, I have to send my kids to the school they are zoned to attend unless I sell my house and change addresses. Would you accept having to buy groceries from the building closest to you simply because it is in your neighborhood? Or gasoline? Or any other good or service? And what about the service that your school provides? If the closest service station only changed oil and rotated tires, would you accept that if you needed a transmission overhaul? What about doctors? Would you take you child to the local GP is they had Leukemia simply because their office was in your area and a oncologist was in the next town over? As a parent, I want the best for my child just like all you would. That is one reason I chose to work where I do. But what about parents that don't have the ability to do as I have done as make that choice? I see this as one of the long term answers to the "bad" school issue. When a school begins to see that they have to compete for the student (tax dollar) they will improve. As the model is now, they just have to set back and get the tax money and do what they have always done. This in turn would take away from the individual concept of grading a teacher to grading their performance as an entire unit. So with this new model of school choice, if you start to see parents turning away from school district and turning to another one, the administration would be forced to find ways to improve and retain and gain students each year. If that meant getting rid of bad teachers, they would have to do it immediately or the system, due to the increased competition, would fail. This would put a premium on the "good teacher" being in demand....and getting paid! This would in fact create a supply and demand situation for the service of the school, and the ability of the teacher. The only thing about market based reforms like this is that the economics don't quite work out. Our state pays the same per student. That's true. I think it's around $9k. However, the quality of the facilities, money for teacher salaries, etc. at the individual schools mostly paid for by local taxes: property taxes, sales tax, wheel taxes, etc. More affluent communities have more money and thus better stuff to attract the best and brightest teachers, administrators, and students. They also know that they don't want to water down their resources by overextending themselves financially or bringing in "undesirable" student populations. It's not necessarily going to really improve schools if students can go wherever What you'd see would be an even more stratified system where kids who are good test takers go to the richer, more affluent schools to make them look even more awesome on paper, even if a lot of those results come from the students' natural abilities rather than the job of the school itself. Students who do poorly on tests will be stuck at the "bad" schools with less money and lower scores. Kids in the middle will slot in somewhere in between. It wouldn't improve education, it would just concentrate inequalities even further. You close the "bad" schools down in that situation and then those students just get shuffled to another "bad" school or turned away by better ones because they'd drag the test scores down there. Then the can of worms gets opened up to discrimination lawsuits because some groups do better on tests than others, etc. Education law is a huge mess in its own right...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2015 10:51:22 GMT -6
We'd never have an ineligible kid again Is it approved for college:ncaa? Doesn't sound like it would be I don't know. We haven't had a kid who wanted to play in college try it. I doubt it as well. Colleges do accept it as a course credit.
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Post by coachmonkey on Jan 6, 2015 11:52:30 GMT -6
In addition to what arnold posted, there has been a real movement (at least in our state) to lessen if not wipe out the influence of teachers' unions, both at state and local levels. For example tenure has virtually become a thing of the past.
The political motivation cannot be underestimated. And yet I still see letters to the newspaper and stuff on Facebook about the "All-powerful Teachers' Union". I hear it all the time here in Virginia, where collective bargaining by public employees is illegal. In Wisconsin they have made teachers unions illegal. Tenure/experience doesn't mean anything in teaching anymore, nor does a masters degree. None of that will get you a raise in Wisconsin anymore or doesn't have to, administration can if they choose to, but don't have to. Personally I think they are trying to get rid of as much money in state education as they can and privatize it. There is too much money sitting there for private interests not to touch.
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Post by natenator on Jan 6, 2015 12:01:12 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2015 12:06:58 GMT -6
And yet I still see letters to the newspaper and stuff on Facebook about the "All-powerful Teachers' Union". I hear it all the time here in Virginia, where collective bargaining by public employees is illegal. In Wisconsin they have made teachers unions illegal. Tenure/experience doesn't mean anything in teaching anymore, nor does a masters degree. None of that will get you a raise in Wisconsin anymore or doesn't have to, administration can if they choose to, but don't have to. Personally I think they are trying to get rid of as much money in state education as they can and privatize it. There is too much money sitting there for private interests not to touch. This is going on in TN as well. A few years ago, the state actually passed a minimum pay law that said that districts no longer had to pay extra for education past a master's degree and cut the salary steps over a career--it worked out to cutting the pay for a 30 year career by over $118,000. They also require that districts develop a plan that will consider other things besides education and experience into teacher pay--the state's plan was for merit pay and test scores to be part of it, though my district chose to pay a little extra for tutoring and stuff. Collective bargaining is a no go here. Tenure is now 5 years instead of 3 and you have to have an almost impossible overall score evaluation score of 4 on a scale of 5 for 3 straight years in order to get it. The evaluation process itself is messed up: 35% of it is based on test scores--if you teach a tested subject (English 1-3, Algebra 1-2, U.S. History, Biology, Chemistry are the only ones), then 35% of your score is based on students's scores in classes you don't teach. Another 15% is based on a single school factor that is also beyond your control such as either raduation rate, schoolwide ACT scores, schoolwide literacy scores, etc. Then 50% of it is based off a very complex observation system where you're observed and scored on a scale of 1-5, but the state tells evaluators to never give 5s under any circumstances, 4s are extremely difficult, and they do not round up at all--2.99 is considered unsatisfactory. Then they average those unrounded scores together to get another unrounded average. Then when the put all this together to do your annual evaluation, it's actually an average of your previous 3 years, so if you have 1 bad year for whatever reason, it can tank you for the next 2. You lose your tenure if you have a score below a "3" for two years in a row. Then they take a "professionalism" rubric into account that grades things like how you dress at work, how much you know about your subjects, how much you do for extracurriculars, etc. It's not factored in directly, but administrators are supposed to consider it when deciding to renew your contract. It's also graded on a scale of 1-5, with 5s being impossible to actually score. That said, I still have to pay union dues just for insurance in case some crazy student falls in my class and decides to sue me.
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mc140
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Post by mc140 on Jan 6, 2015 12:13:32 GMT -6
It is almost impossible to find a public school job in the Chicagoland area. There are over 400 applicants for every, math, English, PE opening. The actual jobs in Chicago are easier to get, but a lot of those teachers are fired within four years due to poor test scores and constantly bouncing around. .
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2015 13:09:41 GMT -6
Another sucky thing about education that a lot of non-teachers don't realize:
The laws for special education can be a real PITA if a parent feels like pushing the issue.
I just sat in a meeting for my entire planning period yesterday where an overprotective mom brought the principal, her attorney, our assistant superintendent, and some other woman with a lot of pull (I never was clear on her job) to demand that we do the following for her daughter:
1. Give her no assignment longer than 10 questions long and no multi-day projects. 2. Teach my class so that everything is broken up into small chunks and phrased a certain way just for her. 3. Make her repeat all instructions back to me. 4. Text the mother every single day with a progress report including all her daily work and due dates. 5. Fill out a very specifically formatted calendar for her with all assignments and due dates on it. 6. Email this to her. 7. Take the daughter's notes for her. 8. Make sure my class has nothing hanging from the ceiling because that may distract the girl. 9. Make sure the girl is not seated in front of, behind, or next to any other student. Nor can she be isolated. 10. Give the daughter no grade lower than an A because it hurts her self esteem. 11. Let her go to the nurse or office at any time. 12. Monitor her for any eye rolling or symptoms of anxiety and calm her down if she shows them. 13. Get an aid to work with her all day, every day. 14. Force the daughter to take home a book of assignments from all teachers daily and get mom to sign off on them. I'm held accountable for this as her first teacher of the day. 15. Find a peer tutor for her to work with on all assignments. 16. Watch to make sure she's not copying from any other kids ever. 17. Provide an aid to work with her and her peer tutor on all work in class. 18. Provide an aid to walk her to each class. 19. Send a copy of all ppts and class materials home to her mother. Etc.
The whole list was over 50 items long...
This was for ONE SINGLE KID. She is NOT retarded. She's not even technically Special Ed. She has a few minor medical conditions, as well as anxiety problem and a genetic condition that's stunted her growth, but she actually performs on grade level in school. She just has a little bit harder time with the stuff that most kids struggle with as freshmen (anxiety, social awkwardness, drama, keeping up with stuff, etc.). But because mom got the paperwork pushed through, now her daughter gets all these unique accommodations. Because mom has gotten all this stuff involved, we have to make sure to follow every single one of these things every day or we could be sued and I could lose my job.
Now, you might be thinking "that's a lot of stuff, but it's just one kid, right?" Well, this one kid is going to add a bunch of extra work on my plate every single day. Now multiply that times a dozen for all the other kids.
Now imagine if you were expected to make modifications and accommodations for kids like this in football and still run a practice. Could you do it? Would you want to do it on a daily basis for 1/4 of your team (1/4 of our school is SPED or on "504" plans for disabilities)?
That, to me, is one of the things that would drive a teacher out after 5 years.
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Post by coachmonkey on Jan 6, 2015 13:29:02 GMT -6
Another sucky thing about education that a lot of non-teachers don't realize: The laws for special education can be a real PITA if a parent feels like pushing the issue. I just sat in a meeting for my entire planning period yesterday where an overprotective mom brought the principal, her attorney, our assistant superintendent, and some other woman with a lot of pull (I never was clear on her job) to demand that we do the following for her daughter: 1. Give her no assignment longer than 10 questions long and no multi-day projects. 2. Teach my class so that everything is broken up into small chunks and phrased a certain way just for her. 3. Make her repeat all instructions back to me. 4. Text the mother every single day with a progress report including all her daily work and due dates. 5. Fill out a very specifically formatted calendar for her with all assignments and due dates on it. 6. Email this to her. 7. Take the daughter's notes for her. 8. Make sure my class has nothing hanging from the ceiling because that may distract the girl. 9. Make sure the girl is not seated in front of, behind, or next to any other student. Nor can she be isolated. 10. Give the daughter no grade lower than an A because it hurts her self esteem. 11. Let her go to the nurse or office at any time. 12. Monitor her for any eye rolling or symptoms of anxiety and calm her down if she shows them. 13. Get an aid to work with her all day, every day. 14. Force the daughter to take home a book of assignments from all teachers daily and get mom to sign off on them. I'm held accountable for this as her first teacher of the day. 15. Find a peer tutor for her to work with on all assignments. 16. Watch to make sure she's not copying from any other kids ever. 17. Provide an aid to work with her and her peer tutor on all work in class. 18. Provide an aid to walk her to each class. 19. Send a copy of all ppts and class materials home to her mother. Etc. The whole list was over 50 items long... This was for ONE SINGLE KID. She is NOT retarded. She's not even technically Special Ed. She has a few minor medical conditions, as well as anxiety problem and a genetic condition that's stunted her growth, but she actually performs on grade level in school. She just has a little bit harder time with the stuff that most kids struggle with as freshmen (anxiety, social awkwardness, drama, keeping up with stuff, etc.). But because mom got the paperwork pushed through, now her daughter gets all these unique accommodations. Because mom has gotten all this stuff involved, we have to make sure to follow every single one of these things every day or we could be sued and I could lose my job. Now, you might be thinking "that's a lot of stuff, but it's just one kid, right?" Well, this one kid is going to add a bunch of extra work on my plate every single day. Now multiply that times a dozen for all the other kids. Now imagine if you were expected to make modifications and accommodations for kids like this in football and still run a practice. Could you do it? Would you want to do it on a daily basis for 1/4 of your team (1/4 of our school is SPED or on "504" plans for disabilities)? That, to me, is one of the things that would drive a teacher out after 5 years. I'm in SPED. This is an admin issue. This should not have been allowed based on what you state.
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Post by coachmonkey on Jan 6, 2015 13:32:48 GMT -6
In addition to what arnold posted, there has been a real movement (at least in our state) to lessen if not wipe out the influence of teachers' unions, both at state and local levels. For example tenure has virtually become a thing of the past.
The political motivation cannot be underestimated. I can both see the move to get rid of tenure as a good thing and a bad thing. A bad thing in that it opens it up for bad districts/admins to get rid of people that don't deserve it, but at the same time it is a good thing that you can now get rid of those really horrible teachers that just mail it in every single day just because they're tenured. Tenure is a myth at the high school level. Schools can fire bad teachers. Admins choose not to because it's typically not popular. Check out "The Death of the Great American School System" to read more about this issue.
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Post by larrymoe on Jan 6, 2015 14:04:32 GMT -6
I can both see the move to get rid of tenure as a good thing and a bad thing. A bad thing in that it opens it up for bad districts/admins to get rid of people that don't deserve it, but at the same time it is a good thing that you can now get rid of those really horrible teachers that just mail it in every single day just because they're tenured. Tenure is a myth at the high school level. Schools can fire bad teachers. Admins choose not to because it's typically not popular. Check out "The Death of the Great American School System" to read more about this issue. Tenure in Illinois is, or at least was, very, very real. It was virtually impossible to fire a teacher on tenure prior to the last couple of years.
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