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Post by wingtol on Dec 27, 2014 19:38:35 GMT -6
Watching this on espn u. How is this legal by state associations? Why would anyone want to do this to their team? Sure it sounds cool having state champs play but I mean really how much is too much for HS kids?
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Post by realdawg on Dec 27, 2014 20:00:22 GMT -6
Just read where many state associations would not agree to it and some other teams turned down invitations.
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Post by Chris Clement on Dec 27, 2014 20:51:25 GMT -6
I agree but I guess there's money in it.
I think the bigger problem is the obsession with finding a "true champion." If you insist on "settling everything on the field" by making a massive single-elimination tournament you're bound to the math of 2^n. It's always tempting to add just one more round.
The math is pretty straightforward. The three largest states have a little over 1,000 teams. Lets call it 1,024 (2^10). Split it into 4 classifications, so 256 (2^8) per classification. 10 team regular season and 1/8 of teams advance so you have 32 playoff teams. By this logic you need to go about 8-2 to make the playoffs, which seems a bit restrictive. To find a state champion takes 5 rounds, so two teams have to play 15 games, also known as a longer season than any FBS team.
While the idea of tidy "state" champions is appealing at some level, and the temptation is ever-present to add "just one more game," the result of the slippery slope ends with a 21 game season to find a national champion that probably won't be the best team, but instead some very good team that also got lucky, because the nature of single-elimination tournaments is that they find a champion very efficiently, but not necessarily the best team.
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Post by coachdubyah on Dec 27, 2014 22:44:19 GMT -6
I just think its too much. Our society/media/culture has glamorized high school football way too much. The whole thing just irritates me. I watched one drive of it today. It's high school football. I don't know. I am sure someone will disagree with me, but this wonderful sport we all know and love (high school football) is changing and I don't like it. Combine this with the pageantry of "Signing Day" and it just sickens me. I am a football junkie, but even I think this is just too much for high school football.
Again, maybe I'm cranky from being cooped up in the house the past 2 days with bad weather, but this is just stupid. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 28, 2014 8:47:10 GMT -6
Watching this on espn u. How is this legal by state associations? Why would anyone want to do this to their team? Sure it sounds cool having state champs play but I mean really how much is too much for HS kids? Would be interested to see the enrollment policies for the participating teams. I saw several of the schools were private schools, so I think some of the benefits to them are obvious. Sadly, it seems that HS football is following college football/basketball from extra curricular activity, to entertainment. Entertainment is directed by the consumer. |
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Post by s73 on Dec 28, 2014 10:46:46 GMT -6
I just think its too much. Our society/media/culture has glamorized high school football way too much. The whole thing just irritates me. I watched one drive of it today. It's high school football. I don't know. I am sure someone will disagree with me, but this wonderful sport we all know and love (high school football) is changing and I don't like it. Combine this with the pageantry of "Signing Day" and it just sickens me. I am a football junkie, but even I think this is just too much for high school football.
Again, maybe I'm cranky from being cooped up in the house the past 2 days with bad weather, but this is just stupid. Could not agree more with you dubyah. Personally I think it's cable TV / internet driven. I mean, recruiting agencies are all over the internet. ESPN is always yappin' about their top 100. They have televised 7 on 7 nowadays in the summer for cryin' out loud. It's absolutely ridiculous. Not to mention all the sports radio and football "break down" shows nowadays like ESPN's playbook where they bring you "inside the game". It's like crack for former washed up football players named "dad". Now they think they actually know the game. But as long as their is $ to be made it will continue. |
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Post by larrymoe on Dec 28, 2014 10:48:32 GMT -6
How in the world do you think it's too much when you (maybe not necessarily you guys in this thread saying it's too much) ask kids to come to 4-6 hours of football a day in the summer or ask them to lift 2-3 hours a night November to May?
But one more game where they get a free vacation to somewhere they may never get a chance to go to is too much? I, and my kids, would love to play in a game like these.
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Post by rsmith627 on Dec 28, 2014 10:54:57 GMT -6
How in the world do you think it's too much when you (maybe not necessarily you guys in this thread saying it's too much) ask kids to come to 4-6 hours of football a day in the summer or ask them to lift 2-3 hours a night November to May? But one more game where they get a free vacation to somewhere they may never get a chance to go to is too much? I, and my kids, would love to play in a game like these. This. Especially for Bingham. That school is literally right down the street from me in walking distance. Those sheltered Utah kids deserve a chance to get out of the state for once in their life. |
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Post by coachg125 on Dec 28, 2014 10:57:01 GMT -6
To me, it's great for the schools.
Per the original announcement, each school would get a $12,500 "rights fee" or a $25,000 in merchandise or a "prorated combination" of the two. AND free travel expenses for up to 75 people.
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 28, 2014 11:34:51 GMT -6
How in the world do you think it's too much when you (maybe not necessarily you guys in this thread saying it's too much) ask kids to come to 4-6 hours of football a day in the summer or ask them to lift 2-3 hours a night November to May? But one more game where they get a free vacation to somewhere they may never get a chance to go to is too much? I, and my kids, would love to play in a game like these. Ironically though, I am betting that the teams that are invited are the teams that do exactly that. |
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Post by mhcoach on Dec 28, 2014 11:48:47 GMT -6
Our team was included on the invite list. We were asked if we won the State Championship would we participate. Being honest by the end of the season I was personally exhausted, but after 2 days I was ready to go again. Here in Florida we start our lifting Jan 6, Spring practice is in May, 7on7 camps are June & July. We go to a full contact camp the week after the 4th of July. Our players would have done anything to be invited & have 3 more weeks of football.
Joe
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Post by irishdog on Dec 28, 2014 11:51:32 GMT -6
It's way too much. I've said this before and I'll say it again. The big money, the media, and professional sports, are killing college and high school sports right before our very eyes…and many of us (coaches and administrators) are being sucked in by the madness and allowing it to happen. It's not about the kids…it's about the $$$.
Our society has become one of extremes, and the sports world is no exception. It's a shame it has started to show its ugly face in high school football.
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Post by s73 on Dec 28, 2014 12:01:06 GMT -6
How in the world do you think it's too much when you (maybe not necessarily you guys in this thread saying it's too much) ask kids to come to 4-6 hours of football a day in the summer or ask them to lift 2-3 hours a night November to May? But one more game where they get a free vacation to somewhere they may never get a chance to go to is too much? I, and my kids, would love to play in a game like these. I don't do any of those things. In fact, I haven't done 2 -adays in over a decade. But, I see where you're coming from. It's a reasonable perspective. I just don't like the fact that HS sports are becoming a national platform much like college athletics, except we have many of the problems with few of the perks. JMO. |
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Post by wingtol on Dec 28, 2014 12:55:45 GMT -6
I was part of a program that went to back to back state title games we played 15/16 games those two years and it was a grind. Don't get me wrong it was a great ride but finishing the season a week before Christmas two years in a row was pretty draining. Throw in 2 weeks of camp and three nights a week in July for 2 hours and it's almost half the year in pads for these kids! I just personal think it's too much. Imagine a kid going down with a big injury inone of these games and missing the next season for you. A late December major injury is a lot different than one during the season for most I would assume. I get it's all part of the game but I would be pissed if it happened to one of my players. And even just watching these games it looked like there were, as a rather gruff but smart coach once said, "just cousins and c**ksuckers in the stands" for crowds.
One a side note I found it funny to see Utah has 150 schools playing for 5 class titles while here we have 4 classes with 150 schools each. Always weird to see how other places are set up.
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Post by spos21ram on Dec 28, 2014 13:10:09 GMT -6
I was part of a program that went to back to back state title games we played 15/16 games those two years and it was a grind. Don't get me wrong it was a great ride but finishing the season a week before Christmas two years in a row was pretty draining. Throw in 2 weeks of camp and three nights a week in July for 2 hours and it's almost half the year in pads for these kids! I just personal think it's too much. Imagine a kid going down with a big injury inone of these games and missing the next season for you. A late December major injury is a lot different than one during the season for most I would assume. I get it's all part of the game but I would be pissed if it happened to one of my players. And even just watching these games it looked like there were, as a rather gruff but smart coach once said, "just cousins and c**ksuckers in the stands" for crowds. One a side note I found it funny to see Utah has 150 schools playing for 5 class titles while here we have 4 classes with 150 schools each. Always weird to see how other places are set up. We have 45 teams separated into 4 classes lol. Our classes and conferences are the same. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using proboards |
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Post by larrymoe on Jan 2, 2015 13:16:20 GMT -6
With what was said about the State Champions Bowls being too much, do you feel the same about All Star games? Why not?
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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 2, 2015 14:05:54 GMT -6
With what was said about the State Champions Bowls being too much, do you feel the same about All Star games? Why not? I think they are a different animal than what these SC bowls were though. All star games, at least in my experience, are generally senior only "last hoorah's" that big time, "true" All-Stars don't even participate in. It is essentially a semi-organized "pick up game" of tackle football with rule restrictions, kids playing in slightly different positions/different schemes, different coaches etc. I.E...the Pro Bowl without the big time stars. These State Champion bowls seem to be basically week 16 of the season, with some added experiences. |
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Post by larrymoe on Jan 2, 2015 14:41:37 GMT -6
Having coached an all star game as an asst and a HC, I'd rather have my team together one last time than to do an all star game.
Either way, it's still one more game. I don't see how you can justify one and not the other.
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Post by fantom on Jan 2, 2015 14:57:02 GMT -6
I was part of a program that went to back to back state title games we played 15/16 games those two years and it was a grind. Don't get me wrong it was a great ride but finishing the season a week before Christmas two years in a row was pretty draining. Throw in 2 weeks of camp and three nights a week in July for 2 hours and it's almost half the year in pads for these kids! I just personal think it's too much. Imagine a kid going down with a big injury inone of these games and missing the next season for you. A late December major injury is a lot different than one during the season for most I would assume. I get it's all part of the game but I would be pissed if it happened to one of my players. And even just watching these games it looked like there were, as a rather gruff but smart coach once said, "just cousins and c**ksuckers in the stands" for crowds. One a side note I found it funny to see Utah has 150 schools playing for 5 class titles while here we have 4 classes with 150 schools each. Always weird to see how other places are set up. I counted them up and between 2001-2010 we played 30+ post-season games. Given that those are all high pressure games that was a freakin' grind. Now I'm at another school trying to do it again. We're just morons in this business. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 2, 2015 16:38:06 GMT -6
Having coached an all star game as an asst and a HC, I'd rather have my team together one last time than to do an all star game. Either way, it's still one more game. I don't see how you can justify one and not the other. I don't think most view All -Star games as "a game". I understand what you are saying, but I think when the coaches here are saying "iwhen is enough enough" they aren't necessarily talking about the actual 2.5 hours of a game, but rather the entire grind. There isn't much of a grind for a kid on an All -Star team. New routine, new people, new coaches new "practice" routine etc. NOt saying I think all-star games are great...OR that the state games themselves are inherently bad. I am saying I think they are very different things..the only similarity being the 2.5 hours on the field. |
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Post by spos21ram on Jan 2, 2015 18:40:43 GMT -6
The money these schools received for playing in this game is more than most programs fundraise in an entire year. It's hard to turn money down that you know the program could use. Plus most kids would love the opportunity. Only problem is, at what point does it feel like your using the current players as pawns to receive more money that most of the varsity kids won't benefit from. I know those teams and coaches aren't thinking that way, I would hope not anyway, but it can appear that way at times.
Now, this is pure speculation, but the school's who agreed to it probably don't even need the money and just like the notoriety and feel it's a good experience for the kids and coaches.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using proboards
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Post by olinedude on Jan 2, 2015 20:18:48 GMT -6
I thought it was entertaining to watch, but not worth it. If I was asked to play in it I think i would take my state rings and stay at the house. I would hate to see any of my guys get hurt playing in a game that doesn't count for anything.
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Post by s73 on Jan 2, 2015 22:21:08 GMT -6
I thought it was entertaining to watch, but not worth it. If I was asked to play in it I think i would take my state rings and stay at the house. I would hate to see any of my guys get hurt playing in a game that doesn't count for anything. Not to mention the fact, it's so hard to win a frickin' state title. Then you FINALLY do it and the seniors & the staff got to the top of the mountain and get to go out winners and have a parade and........wait, we proved we could win the state, now let's challenge ourselves AGAIN ? To me it's like you cross the finish line in a marathon and just as you raise your arms in exhausted victory somebody says" betcha can't go another 5". Just don't see the appeal. If I win a state title I'm spending the whole off season reflecting and reliving and reminiscing and EMBELLISHING THE HELL OUT OF THAT SEASON!!!! Just sayin'. |
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Post by rsmith627 on Jan 2, 2015 22:25:20 GMT -6
I thought it was entertaining to watch, but not worth it. If I was asked to play in it I think i would take my state rings and stay at the house. I would hate to see any of my guys get hurt playing in a game that doesn't count for anything. Not to mention the fact, it's so hard to win a frickin' state title. Then you FINALLY do it and the seniors & the staff got to the top of the mountain and get to go out winners and have a parade and........wait, we proved we could win the state, now let's challenge ourselves AGAIN ? To me it's like you cross the finish line in a marathon and just as you raise your arms in exhausted victory somebody says" betcha can't go another 5". Just don't see the appeal. If I win a state title I'm spending the whole off season reflecting and reliving and reminiscing and EMBELLISHING THE HELL OUT OF THAT SEASON!!!! Just sayin'. I don't know about the other teams, but I know the team that was from Utah wins titles regularly, with very little trouble. Maybe these teams are just looking for a challenge? The Utah team took Bishop Gorman into overtime early in the season. That's a big deal. They also took the school they played in this "bowl game" into overtime. They lost both, but they can hang their hat on the fact that they can compete with the nationally ranked big boys. I also think when you run a good program, you have an "anybody, anytime, anywhere" attitude. I know if I were a senior on my way out, I'd want one more game. |
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Post by s73 on Jan 2, 2015 22:39:45 GMT -6
Not to mention the fact, it's so hard to win a frickin' state title. Then you FINALLY do it and the seniors & the staff got to the top of the mountain and get to go out winners and have a parade and........wait, we proved we could win the state, now let's challenge ourselves AGAIN ? To me it's like you cross the finish line in a marathon and just as you raise your arms in exhausted victory somebody says" betcha can't go another 5". Just don't see the appeal. If I win a state title I'm spending the whole off season reflecting and reliving and reminiscing and EMBELLISHING THE HELL OUT OF THAT SEASON!!!! Just sayin'. I don't know about the other teams, but I know the team that was from Utah wins titles regularly, with very little trouble. Maybe these teams are just looking for a challenge? The Utah team took Bishop Gorman into overtime early in the season. That's a big deal. They also took the school they played in this "bowl game" into overtime. They lost both, but they can hang their hat on the fact that they can compete with the nationally ranked big boys. I also think when you run a good program, you have an "anybody, anytime, anywhere" attitude. I know if I were a senior on my way out, I'd want one more game. I get what you're saying but since we haven't won one yet I'm not looking to put the cart before the horse. I also think those "anyone, anytime, anywhere" attitudes tend to be backed up by a whole lotta D1 dudes. Not too many guys w/ that attitude are showing up to the gun fight w/ pocket knives. Pretty easy to feel good when your Jimmy's look like Saturday afternoon Joe's if you catch my drift. I guess what I'm getting at is I think you can run a real good program and still have some contentment. JMO. |
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Post by rsmith627 on Jan 2, 2015 22:43:41 GMT -6
I don't know about the other teams, but I know the team that was from Utah wins titles regularly, with very little trouble. Maybe these teams are just looking for a challenge? The Utah team took Bishop Gorman into overtime early in the season. That's a big deal. They also took the school they played in this "bowl game" into overtime. They lost both, but they can hang their hat on the fact that they can compete with the nationally ranked big boys. I also think when you run a good program, you have an "anybody, anytime, anywhere" attitude. I know if I were a senior on my way out, I'd want one more game. I get what you're saying but since we haven't won one yet I'm not looking to put the cart before the horse. I also think those "anyone, anytime, anywhere" attitudes tend to be backed up by a whole lotta D1 dudes. Not too many guys w/ that attitude are showing up to the gun fight w/ pocket knives. Pretty easy to feel good when your Jimmy's look like Saturday afternoon Joe's if you catch my drift. I guess what I'm getting at is I think you can run a real good program and still have some contentment. JMO. I agree with you, but like I said, the Utah school wins them regularly. There has only been one school in the state to come close to even being a challenge, and they haven't beat them. In no way do I think an average program should do it, or even a program that just won their first championship. But, if nobody in your state can hang with you, and it's that way for a few years, why not? If you're knocking out that many titles, you're probably bringing a bazooka to a paintball fight. |
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Post by larrymoe on Jan 3, 2015 11:12:48 GMT -6
The money these schools received for playing in this game is more than most programs fundraise in an entire year. It's hard to turn money down that you know the program could use. Plus most kids would love the opportunity. Only problem is, at what point does it feel like your using the current players as pawns to receive more money that most of the varsity kids won't benefit from. I know those teams and coaches aren't thinking that way, I would hope not anyway, but it can appear that way at times. Now, this is pure speculation, but the school's who agreed to it probably don't even need the money and just like the notoriety and feel it's a good experience for the kids and coaches. I would think you would start by asking your kids if they want to do it. Have a meeting, lay out the deal and then have a vote on whether or not they want to play. If they don't want to play, you don't play. Knowing my kids, they would probably love to be able to play in it and I would love to coach in it. Regardless of the $$. Plus, all of you are saying "What if we lose"? What if you win? What greater cap to your season to not only win your state, but beat one of the best teams in the nation? |
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Post by s73 on Jan 3, 2015 11:33:48 GMT -6
The money these schools received for playing in this game is more than most programs fundraise in an entire year. It's hard to turn money down that you know the program could use. Plus most kids would love the opportunity. Only problem is, at what point does it feel like your using the current players as pawns to receive more money that most of the varsity kids won't benefit from. I know those teams and coaches aren't thinking that way, I would hope not anyway, but it can appear that way at times. Now, this is pure speculation, but the school's who agreed to it probably don't even need the money and just like the notoriety and feel it's a good experience for the kids and coaches. I would think you would start by asking your kids if they want to do it. Have a meeting, lay out the deal and then have a vote on whether or not they want to play. If they don't want to play, you don't play. Knowing my kids, they would probably love to be able to play in it and I would love to coach in it. Regardless of the $$. Plus, all of you are saying "What if we lose"? What if you win? What greater cap to your season to not only win your state, but beat one of the best teams in the nation? What about other sports ? Technically your season is over. What if you're the Bball guy who patiently waited for a month & even cheered you on while you went on to win the state title game. Now your season's over and he's ready to get going with some of his guys who may be on your team. Same with the wrestling coach. Now you want to say hey man, can you wait a little longer while we play in this exhibition game ? Plus, I think parents should have a pretty big say in this thing to, based on the fact that their kids have already played an additional 5 games and now are asked to play another one ? I don't think this thing is as simple as "the kids and football coaches wan to". JMO. |
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Post by 44dlcoach on Jan 3, 2015 21:22:30 GMT -6
I think these games are one of those things that you can look at objectively and say that you'd rather not attend, but if you got the actual offer it's probably really hard to say no to.
We got invited to a pre-season "event" type of game this year. One of the "perks" is that we got to play an additional game, we didn't have to remove a game from our schedule to add this one, and we got to start our padded practices two weeks earlier than everybody else in our state. The game was going to be on regional or national tv, everything was paid for, etc. we were all for it. The reality was that spent 5 days away from home, got home Sunday night and had to go right into game planning for a game the next week, and by the end of the season we had been in full pads for 18 straight weeks. I know these are "first world" problems and some people don't want to hear complaining about it, but that is a heck of a grind of a season.
There is talk about whether or not we'll get invited to this event again next year, and it would almost be more of a relief if they offered the spot to somebody else. That right there would cut two weeks of padded practices off our season and put a scrimmage in place of an extra game.
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Post by larrymoe on Jan 4, 2015 11:23:28 GMT -6
What about other sports ? Technically your season is over. What if you're the Bball guy who patiently waited for a month & even cheered you on while you went on to win the state title game. Now your season's over and he's ready to get going with some of his guys who may be on your team. Same with the wrestling coach. Now you want to say hey man, can you wait a little longer while we play in this exhibition game ? Plus, I think parents should have a pretty big say in this thing to, based on the fact that their kids have already played an additional 5 games and now are asked to play another one ? I don't think this thing is as simple as "the kids and football coaches wan to". JMO. Agreed that it doesn't solely rest on the player's decision, but that would be where I start. Personally, I don't give two craps about our basketball coach.  It wouldn't matter for me regardless because our state association wouldn't allow it. I was just putting forward how I'd approach it. |
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